Tony Ferguson on fri 26 aug 05
Hi,
I was curious if any of our clayart instructors were teaching or moving toward teaching art courses online in such environments and D2L, WebCT, Blackboard, etc. If so, what are some of the issues that concern you that you are running into? I ask because I have developed several online art courses in the last year and half and have found it a very "interesting" experience.
Tony Ferguson
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
Duluth, Minnesota
Artist, Educator, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
fergy@cpinternet.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
http://www.tonyferguson.net
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Vince Pitelka on sat 27 aug 05
Tony Ferguson wrote:
"I was curious if any of our clayart instructors were teaching or moving
toward teaching art courses online in such environments and D2L, WebCT,
Blackboard, etc. If so, what are some of the issues that concern you that
you are running into? I ask because I have developed several online art
courses in the last year and half and have found it a very "interesting"
experience."
Tony -
Please don't take any offense from this, but I am completely horrified at
the thought of studio art courses online. It's a complete contradiction in
terms. The whole idea of a studio art class is that it takes place in a
studio, and the direct visual interchange between instructor and student and
between fellow students is absolutely essential. Without that, it is a
hollow shell of a course. Tennessee Tech University is really pushing the
idea of web-based courses, but as far as I am concerned, it will never
happen in studio arts with any degree of effectiveness.
There may be some areas where online courses can work very well, and offer a
great service to people who cannot attend normal college classes. But when
web format is forced on classes that depend so heavily on in-person contact
between students and faculty, then the whole purpose of education just goes
to hell. I am very worried about many of the current trends in higher
education.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Chris Stanley on sun 28 aug 05
No reason to be horrified.
We are not thinking along the lines of how to make this possible, only that
it is impossible.
The technology exists, how can we use it, should be the question.
My premise, Here I sit in Odessa, TX. (2,500 miles from everywhere) My
"region" draws students from all over what is called the Permian Basin.
Roughly Seminole, TX to The Border of Mexico going North and South, and
almost from El Paso to Abilene, going West to East. Communication amongst
artist is rare. (sometimes we like it that way, but still a problem)
In my perfect world, We in the Permian Basin would be able to take a
"on-line" studio class from some one and get another voice to our artistic
development. It is hard to imagine, but there are some folks who are
geologically and financially land locked and still wish to participate in a
larger educational world.
Here is a thought. Those of you interested in seeing if we could put on an
experiment, lets all see if we can meet at NCECA this year. Imagine sitting
in on a Gary Hatcher, or Louis Katz lecture from the luxury of your own home
studio.
Part of the fun of the internet is that the possibilities are non-ending as
far as instructional opportunities. It is happening already with images and
texts in existing web pages. The only missing part is the verbal/Visual
communication.
Instructional 2 -way TV might hold some hope for new delivery methods for
studio classes also.
Linda Arbuckle on sun 28 aug 05
Tony,
I've looked into this and thought about putting some of the lecture
component online so I'd have more hands-on time with students, but I
confess that I haven't gotten there yet. It would be great to put
ceramic history, and tech info that gets covered in class and support
articles online so that people could encounter that again outside
studio, and have a better chance of making that info stick. The online
tools also can tell the teacher if the student logged in to the assigned
material.
I agree w/Vince - teaching a studio class online totally would be
barking up the wrong tree - but I think the online tools have a place
for backup info and references. I just don't know where to find the time
to scan slides and do the prep work for this, as it takes me a LONG time
to do all that, but I think it has the potential to be useful. Glaze
calc is another area where online tools could be helpful.
Linda Arbuckle, Professor
University of Florida
School of Art and Art History
P.O. Box 115801
Gainesville, FL 32611
http://www.arts.ufl.edu/artex02/html/ceramics/arbuckle.html
(352) 392-0201 x 219
Weiland, Jeff on mon 29 aug 05
I have just finished a graduate level online education class in early
august. I was the biggest pain in the rear. It was an educational
research class with required chat interaction. I suppose that for some
who love to sit at the keyboard the format is fine. When I want to have
an in-depth discussion, I want to be able to see the person's face and
also read the body language. It is the same problem we have here on
Clayart at times. One person writes something tongue-in-cheek with a
bunch of sarcasm and we read it as "what a jerk"!!! The
between-the-lines stuff does not come across. I just hate to see the
"art" of teaching thrown away for the sake of economy. I see it as a big
slam in the area of quality. I guess if I lived out in the middle of the
desert or in a remote Colorado mountain cabin, it would be great. I
think that it would also be difficult for the instructor. How in the
world can you accurately evaluate without seeing the effort level,
process steps, etc? If the class only deals with evidence of research
and recording facts and figures, then online may okay for some. Not my
preference. I want to see your face. Maybe that is why we have enjoyed
and talked about the pictures of Clayart members. We put a face to the
name. Of course we could always alter the pictures to fix...!! It is
that same with online courses. I could sign up for a math class and have
one of my buddies do all the work. Many security issues. That was a big
discussion of this online class I took. The whole class dealt with the
use of technology and education. I only took it because I needed quick
credit to renew my teaching license. Not my first choice. I would have
preferred to sit in a university studio at a wheel shooting the breeze
and cranking out a bunch of creativity!!!
Jeff Weiland
Greenfield-Central High School
810 North Broadway
Greenfield, Indiana 46140
317-462-9211
jweiland@gcsc.k12.in.us
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Tony
Ferguson
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 8:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Online Art Courses in Higher Ed.
Hi,
I was curious if any of our clayart instructors were teaching or moving
toward teaching art courses online in such environments and D2L, WebCT,
Blackboard, etc. If so, what are some of the issues that concern you
that you are running into? I ask because I have developed several
online art courses in the last year and half and have found it a very
"interesting" experience.
Tony Ferguson
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
Duluth, Minnesota
Artist, Educator, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
fergy@cpinternet.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
http://www.tonyferguson.net
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
________________________________________________________________________
______
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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Tony Ferguson on mon 29 aug 05
Vince,
No offense taken at all. I respect your well thought out and consise opinions.
Having a computer background, video, theatre, studio, etc., I believe I see what the future of education is and like you have felt very concerned. There is nothing more important to me than my students having a positive learning experience. Now by no means am I veteran teacher, but I have been teaching a variety of things since I was a young teen ager as well as 2 years at the college level. I even did a K-12 teacher ed. program and at the end decided that I wanted to teach at the college level and did not apply for my K-12 license.
Anyway, your concerns are quite valid and that is in part why I have taken such a keen interest in developing what I believe to be effective curriculum for online. The unfortunete aspect to all this is that it is impossible unless you are taking the class to know if it was done well.
Online is not the same as in the class room and how could it be but different is not necessarily inadequate. It can be done very well and sucessfully with the right instructor.
Now with studio lessons, I agree, they would be the most difficult courses to teach online if not impossible. I think they could be done as hybrids but for me the questions are why bother, why not teach them face to face because really thats where they belong. They certainly could be done in an intensive workshop format over a 2 week period as well.
I do however find that art history, art appreciation, digital photography, 2D & 3D art can and are taught effectively online with the use of multi-media (still, video & audio clips providing supplemental, virtual instructor if you will). Online can be very benefical to students who do learn sycronously in a non asyncornous environment as well as those who do not--which we have found is very good for many students and different learning styles because they can review the material over and over as much as they need to. The ability to repeat lessons over and over, review content and lecture repeatedly, retake quizzes that draw from a data base of many relevant questions so the quizzes are random each time, can produce a viable and productive learning experience.
Add in the care of a good instructor who is fascilitating student to student and student to instructor interaction in the asyncronous discussion area of the virtual environment and you can have some very very interesting dynamics taking place. Students who would not otherwise raise their hand or volunteer to talk in class, behind a keyboard are now very comfortable with expressing their thoughts, ideas, and questions. The one thing I really realized is that it is litterally a meeting of the minds. There was no physical barriers, judegments on socio-economic constraints, etc. types of things that might normally ocurr.
Another positive I found was that online also creates the possibility for folks who could not otherwise attend college for a variety of reasons be it financial, physical, etc. have access to education. An example would be the mother who has three children who lives up on the range (Iron range) where she would have to find a sitter, daycare = costs, for here three kids, and then drive 2 hours to school, etc, etc. Not physically or financially feasible. But via online, she can further her education.
What I did not enjoy was actually meeting my students physically and interacting with them on that level of expression. Overall, the experience for positive.
As the internet speeds increase, we will be able to do full screen real time instruction. I could be demonstrating in my studio various techniques and students will be able to, like TVO, record on their computers the live lesson and then practice--so studio lessons may not be ruled out just yet. Technology is here folks. We can either embrace it as another tool or run for the hills.
Tony Ferguson
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Vince Pitelka wrote:
Tony Ferguson wrote:
"I was curious if any of our clayart instructors were teaching or moving
toward teaching art courses online in such environments and D2L, WebCT,
Blackboard, etc. If so, what are some of the issues that concern you that
you are running into? I ask because I have developed several online art
courses in the last year and half and have found it a very "interesting"
experience."
Tony -
Please don't take any offense from this, but I am completely horrified at
the thought of studio art courses online. It's a complete contradiction in
terms. The whole idea of a studio art class is that it takes place in a
studio, and the direct visual interchange between instructor and student and
between fellow students is absolutely essential. Without that, it is a
hollow shell of a course. Tennessee Tech University is really pushing the
idea of web-based courses, but as far as I am concerned, it will never
happen in studio arts with any degree of effectiveness.
There may be some areas where online courses can work very well, and offer a
great service to people who cannot attend normal college classes. But when
web format is forced on classes that depend so heavily on in-person contact
between students and faculty, then the whole purpose of education just goes
to hell. I am very worried about many of the current trends in higher
education.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
Duluth, Minnesota
Artist, Educator, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
fergy@cpinternet.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.aquariusartgallery.com
http://www.tonyferguson.net
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Pfeiffer, Dan R (Dan) on mon 29 aug 05
I find the DVD's and videos to be a great help and few online courses I
have had I liked and learned a lot from. If the intent is to learn it can be
a great help. Having a prof who can't speak english or his grad student who
you can't hear is not a great help. Of all the collage courses I have had a
few were worth the money, most I would have done better just reading the
book and not wasting the time in class listen to a prof teaching his thesis.
While I would love to have a great teacher to lean from in person so far the
best I can hope for is a tape. Cost and time prohibit any other options for
what is likely a long time. One big plus is going over the same info after
working at a technique for a while you see new things you did not see the
first time.
Dan & Laurel in Elkmont Al
Potters Council Members
Vince Pitelka on mon 29 aug 05
Tony Ferguson wrote:
"I do however find that art history, art appreciation, digital photography,
2D & 3D art can and are taught effectively online with the use of
multi-media (still, video & audio clips providing supplemental, virtual
instructor if you will)."
Tony -
I still hope that I won't offend you by my comments here, but all of your
justification sounds to me like the same kind of rationalization used to
defend standardized testing and other things that represent the
deterioration of American education. I would agree that art history and
appreciation might be taught fairly effectively online for well-motivated
students who do not have the option to attend classes at a college or
university.
But I would never agree that any online studio art course could even begin
to approach the effectiveness of a live course. The whole dynamic would be
a shallow immitation of live teaching and learning in a real studio. It
could not be otherwise. The whole concept of teaching a visual art studio
course online is a contradiction in terms and a travesty of studio art
education. And regarding those students who do not tend to speak up in
critiques, it is up to the instructor to draw those students out, to help
get through their defenses in a non-threatening fashion. That's just part
of the challenge.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
joethepotter1948 on tue 30 aug 05
I agree with Vince, and have some additional thoughts to add on the
subject. Many years ago my dad insisted that his kids go to
college, not so much for the academic meat to be eaten there but so
that they would learn to think and to truly understand. Creative
thinking and deep understanding in any field are not gleaned from
printed information or even visual instruction, but instead are
formed in the human mind as a result of varied and sometimes
seemingly intangible observations, and I have concluded over the
years that these necessary observations must be gained in person to
get the desired result. Small classes, making a connection with the
instructor, and interacting with peers in a traditional classroom,
laboratory, or studio setting are the only way to go for the
important stuff, IMHO. Not online, Not on TV, Not in books, Not
on videos, although all of those DO have their places as building
blocks in developing our technical abilities. Technical abilities
make us proficient craftsmen, but creativity and critical thinking
are necessary if we are to become extraordinary.
Joe
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Tony Ferguson wrote:
> "I do however find that art history, art appreciation, digital
photography,
> 2D & 3D art can and are taught effectively online with the use of
> multi-media (still, video & audio clips providing supplemental,
virtual
> instructor if you will)."
>
> Tony -
> I still hope that I won't offend you by my comments here, but...
>snip<
> But I would never agree that any online studio art course could
even begin
> to approach the effectiveness of a live course. The whole dynamic
would be
> a shallow immitation of live teaching and learning in a real
studio. It
> could not be otherwise. The whole concept of teaching a visual
art studio
> course online is a contradiction in terms and a travesty of studio
art
> education. And regarding those students who do not tend to speak
up in
> critiques, it is up to the instructor to draw those students out,
to help
> get through their defenses in a non-threatening fashion. That's
just part
> of the challenge.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
> Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
> vpitelka@d..., wpitelka@t...
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
bonnie staffel on tue 30 aug 05
Tony, I do not mean to be critical here, but then again guess I am. When
teaching in the written word, I find it very difficult to follow a lesson if
words are not spelled correctly. Looking them up then alters my flow of
thought. Where a teacher can get away with the spoken word, as usually the
pronunciation is still correct, no misinterpretation happens. In your post
I came across several misspelled words that even though they were not in my
non-college education, I felt were not correct. Many words have Latin
derivations so my two years in my high school Latin course gave me a basic
understanding of the root words.
If you intend on presenting a course online, will your priority also include
correct spelling? I have seen many websites where words are not and it
skews my appreciation or respect for the writer. Even if I am doing
business with a commercial site, a misspelled word sometimes turns me away
from dealing with that company. Even if one has Spell Check, the text still
has to be read by eye so as not to introduce a word with a spelling that is
different than that which was meant, even though that spelling is correct in
another context.
I achieved the Honor Roll in High School and I have had one year of college
at Toledo University where I found that I was certainly not suited to that
format of learning. Life experiences have honed my education as I had
always been curious about many things. When I was in high school, spelling
was one of my strong points, but I had problems getting my mind around
algebra. I just looked up "Golden Mean" and almost got faint trying to
understand the concept, which I did visually, but I could not for the life
of me gather my mind around the numbers, although I have studied composition
in drawing, painting, as well as clay without needing the numbers. If we
don't make every effort to reach the student, even above their level, they
will just float along where they are, IMO. When I went to art schools,
before clay, I went to a school that was specifically an art school. When I
had to learn to become a secretary, college didn't give it to me so I went
to a business school. Sailed through a one year course in four months. So
when I wanted to learn about clay, I went to the Toledo Museum School to
learn about it from one of the best at the time, Harvey Littleton. Then
went to Cranbrook to also study with the best, Maija Grotell.
I have taught via phone and email and know the pitfalls. Teaching by voice
is fraught with misinterpretations as sometimes you do not know what the
student hears. Only when I would go to the studio to give a follow up could
I see these misinterpretations or lack of follow through on the part of the
student. Being a teacher is a big responsibility. Still the student will
use his/her own experiences to interpret what the teacher is offering. I
don't envy you this task but wish you the best of success.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
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