bone to pick - no carriage returns!

updated sat 22 oct 05

Donna Kat on thu 13 oct 05

Yes this is petty but I'm reading way too many posts where I have just
given up reading them because the poster and the list-server software is
not adding a carriage return at the end of the edit window. One whole
paragraph as a single line is NOT easy to read. It is really hard to do
as a poster because you appear to get a return as you type and you
consciously
have to add them on your own. Is there some reason the programmer for this
site cannot just put in a line lenght limit where a carriage return is
added automatically?

Maurice Weitman on thu 13 oct 05

Actually, Wayne, Jeannette, and Matt, I believe you've misdiagnosed
the problem Donna is having.

The problem is that Donna does not read clayart with her email
client. She gets the clayart digest in email, but that links to the
archives in her web browser. How do I know? I cheated. I asked her.

To see an example of what Donna's seeing, check this archive page out:


For contrast, press the third or fourth buttons on that page to see
the preceding/following page which is properly formatted.

And I don't think there's a "margin setting" in a browser; maybe I'm
missing something.

I never have a problem in email reading messages that are "run-on" as
the example above; my email client (Eudora for Mac OS X) and others
I've used will "soft wrap" run-on text.

I'll bet the messages with which Donna has trouble are made by folks
using a web browser (not an email client), perhaps in digest reading
mode, or maybe even using a webmail function.

I do think that there's no valid reason that text in the clayart
archive/digest reading mode should be allowed to extend beyond the
window width.

Regards,
Maurice

Jeanette Harris on thu 13 oct 05

>Yes this is petty but I'm reading way too many posts where I have just
>given up reading them because the poster and the list-server software is
>not adding a carriage return at the end of the edit window. One whole
>paragraph as a single line is NOT easy to read. It is really hard to do
>as a poster because you appear to get a return as you type and you
>consciously
>have to add them on your own. Is there some reason the programmer for this
>site cannot just put in a line lenght limit where a carriage return is
>added automatically?

Donna,
It would not be practical, if not impossible for the people who
kindly donate their time to manage this list to edit each message to
fit individual mail programs and formats. It's up to you to configure
your mail preferences to whatever form you wish to receive them in.

Take a look at your mail program preferences. I don't know which one
you are using, so I can't give you specific advice, but in there
somewhere you will find that you can adjust the line length for the
messages that you receive. If you select that to a desired length, it
won't matter in what form you get the messages, they will adjust to
your screen.

Additionally, I would suggest that you check out the free mail
program "Eudora". It is very easy to use and is a free download. Just
use Google and type in Eudora.

Cheers,


--
Jeanette Harris
Poulsbo WA

Potter's Council member

Wayne Seidl on thu 13 oct 05

Donna:
Sometimes=20
when=20
messages=20
get=20
sent=20
to=20
a=20
listserv,=20
formatting=20
is=20
lost.

Try=20
setting=20
your=20
browser=20
to=20
word=20
wrap=20
at=20
68=20
or=20
70=20
characters.

That=20
should
fix
any
problem.

Best,
Wayne=20
Seidl

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Donna
Kat
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:14 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Bone to Pick - No Carriage Returns!


there some reason the programmer for this
site cannot just put in a line lenght limit where a carriage return
is
added automatically?

____________________________________________________________________
__________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

MacIntire, Matt on thu 13 oct 05

Donna,

Your problem may have more to do with the e-mail client software you are
using to *read* the messages, than with the Listserv software, or the
MUA used to originally send the messages. =20

Most current e-mail client software wraps these lines so that when the
application window is filled, the lines wrap properly. Forcing the
message to be sent with line breaks at 76 characters is an older way of
constructing an e-mail message, left over from when screens only
displayed ASCII characters.

What software are you using to read your messages?

Belinda Willis on thu 13 oct 05

Donna,

I don=92t know if all versions of ClayArt look the same on the screen. I
read the list by going to the archives at:

http://lsv.ceramics.org/archivedata/clayart.html

Reading the list this way, each post has a bar of icons at the top. On the
far left are two buttons, one with an arrowhead pointing left and the other
with an arrowhead pointing right, then there are two buttons with light
bulbs plus right and left arrows, and so on across the bar. The two icons
on the far right end of the bar each say =93jkl.=94 Click the one that is N=
OT
the most far right one=85.the one that=92s second from the end. That will
convert your looooong one line ClayArt post into a multi-lined post that is
easy to read.

You then have to click the =93back=94 button twice to get back to the list o=
f
posts in the archive.

Belinda
www.greatpottery.com

Liisa Reid on fri 14 oct 05

For Donna and other folks who are reading clayart through the archive
browser,
there is a solution to the word wrap problem.

Notice the last two buttons on the tool bar. They say jkl. The archives,
by default,
use the button on the far right and some messages spool on nearly forever.
Just click on
the left of the two jkl buttons and all everything will wrap properly.

What I have wondered is why this button is not set as the default???
Maybe,
there is a good reason. If not, it would a great thing if it could be
reset by the archive manager.

Liisa, who sometimes reads clayart from the archive browser.



>
> To see an example of what Donna's seeing, check this archive page out:
>

Steve Irvine on fri 14 oct 05

Belinda,

You can avoid the double click back when in proportional font mode by clicki=
ng instead on the
icon at the top of the page that looks like the "prev" button of a dvd remot=
e, i.e. seventh button
from the left, vertical line with two triangles. This will take you back to =
the current week of the
archives.

Steve
http://www.steveirvine.com

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:15:43 -0400, Belinda Willis wrot=
e:
>I don=92t know if all versions of ClayArt look the same on the screen. I
>read the list by going to the archives at:
>
>http://lsv.ceramics.org/archivedata/clayart.html
>
>Reading the list this way, each post has a bar of icons at the top. On the=

>far left are two buttons, one with an arrowhead pointing left and the other=

>with an arrowhead pointing right, then there are two buttons with light
>bulbs plus right and left arrows, and so on across the bar. The two icons
>on the far right end of the bar each say =93jkl.=94 Click the one that is =
NOT
>the most far right one=85.the one that=92s second from the end. That will
>convert your looooong one line ClayArt post into a multi-lined post that is=

>easy to read.
>
>You then have to click the =93back=94 button twice to get back to the list =
of
>posts in the archive.
>
>Belinda
>www.greatpottery.com

MacIntire, Matt on fri 14 oct 05

>> Maurice wrote:
>> Actually, Wayne, Jeannette, and Matt, I believe you've misdiagnosed
the problem Donna is having.


Thanks for the correction. FWIW... I did ask, but received no answer.
The good news is Donna's problem has an easy solution. =20

If I view the link Maurice sent, I see the un-wrapped lines. The
message displays in non-proportioned ASCII characters. This can be
changed. =20

In the bar at the top, the second icon from the left enables a view
using proportional font. Click on this icon and the text should wrap
normally in the browser. I have found that this works in both Firefox
and Internet Explorer.

Donna: Try using the proportional font view.

Carl Finch on fri 14 oct 05

At 03:22 PM 10/13/2005, Maurice Weitman wrote:
>Actually, Wayne, Jeannette, and Matt, I believe you've misdiagnosed
>the problem Donna is having.
>
>The problem is that Donna does not read clayart with her email
>client. She gets the clayart digest in email, but that links to the
>archives in her web browser. How do I know? I cheated. I asked her.
>
>To see an example of what Donna's seeing, check this archive page out:
>
>
>For contrast, press the third or fourth buttons on that page to see
>the preceding/following page which is properly formatted.

Uh Maurice, just click that penultimate button (proportional font) and it
works fine!

(Who reads in Courier font, anyway?!)

--Carl
in Medford, Oregon

mtigges@NOSPAM-SHAW.CA on fri 14 oct 05

On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 03:22:07PM -0700, Maurice Weitman wrote:
> The problem is that Donna does not read clayart with her email
> client. She gets the clayart digest in email, but that links to the
> archives in her web browser. How do I know? I cheated. I asked her.
>
> To see an example of what Donna's seeing, check this archive page out:
>
>
> For contrast, press the third or fourth buttons on that page to see
> the preceding/following page which is properly formatted.
>
> And I don't think there's a "margin setting" in a browser; maybe I'm
> missing something.

I do agree that people should format their emails correctly. And by
correct I mean plain text, not html, and broken lines. Preferably at
about 70 characters width.

However, there is really no blame to lay. There are ways to make this
email look nice in html. The default view which is presented at that
page uses what is called

 tags to encode the information of the

email.  This means that browser leaves the text completely alone and

does nothing to it.  It's easy for the script writer to use 
 and

leave it up to the content to be appropriate.  To do a better job

takes a bit more work for the script writer.  Luckily they have done

it for you.



The top row of icons has two buttons on the far right of the row.

They are both labeled "jkl"; one uses a proportional font, and the

other a fixed width font.  The default is to have the fixed width font

being used.  That's why that button is depressed.  Simply click on the

other button and viola the text will be displayed in a nice serif

proportional font with wrapping to fit the window.  You only have to

click that button once, and it remains proportional for the remainder

of your viewing session.



Regards,



Mark.

Wayne on fri 14 oct 05

Agreed, Maurice. Reading posts like that would turn me off to it
rather quickly.

And you are correct. My browser does not support word wrap
adjustments. My e-mail client however does.

So, it must fall to the person posting the message
as a matter of "Netiquette" to use a carriage return.

We all know how that is going to work.

Wayne Seidl

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Maurice
Weitman
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:22 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Bone to Pick - No Carriage Returns!

Actually, Wayne, Jeannette, and Matt, I believe you've misdiagnosed
the problem Donna is having.

The problem is that Donna does not read clayart with her email
client. She gets the clayart digest in email, but that links to the
archives in her web browser. How do I know? I cheated. I asked
her.

To see an example of what Donna's seeing, check this archive page
out:
=3D
30342>

For contrast, press the third or fourth buttons on that page to see
the preceding/following page which is properly formatted.

And I don't think there's a "margin setting" in a browser; maybe I'm
missing something.

I never have a problem in email reading messages that are "run-on"
as
the example above; my email client (Eudora for Mac OS X) and others
I've used will "soft wrap" run-on text.

I'll bet the messages with which Donna has trouble are made by folks
using a web browser (not an email client), perhaps in digest reading
mode, or maybe even using a webmail function.

I do think that there's no valid reason that text in the clayart
archive/digest reading mode should be allowed to extend beyond the
window width.

Regards,
Maurice

____________________________________________________________________
__________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Chris Campbell on sat 15 oct 05

This title made me wonder how many people
under 30 have no idea whatsoever what a
'carriage return' is.

Chris Campbell - in North Carolina - gee, I even
remember clinkers from coal furnaces !!!

Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233

Fine Colored Porcelain since 1989

1-800-652-1008
Fax : 919-676-2062
website: www.ccpottery.com
wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com

Maurice Weitman on sat 15 oct 05

At 4:24 PM -0400 on 10/14/05, Wayne wrote:
>[...] So, it must fall to the person posting the message
>as a matter of "Netiquette" to use a carriage return.
>
>We all know how that is going to work.

At the risk of beating the dead horse...

I agree that it would be delightful if everyone would submit their
messages to clayart with nice line lengths. But it would also be
nice if people would send private messages off-list, and edit the
quoted part of a message so that we don't end up with a one-line
response and 100 lines of previous messages, and if people wouldn't
muck with the subject headers so that we can follow (or delete) a
thread, and, and... don't get me started.

I believe that in this case, the fault, dear Bru... uhhh...
clayarters, lies not with the un-tech-savvy or tech-averse folks
whose program doesn't insert soft or hard returns in their submitted
text, but in the script that the listserv software uses to format its
text. This would be a trivial change, but don't hold your breath(s).

It uses a

 tag (for preformatted text) to apply to the full text

of the email, from the top of the headers to the "Moderator of the

list..." line at the end of the message body.  That relieves the

browser of having to do any formatting for the text within its 

tag's influence, including word wrap.



If it were changed to only use 
 for the headers, it would wrap

more better.



And if one really wanted a non-proportional (typewriter-style) font

for the message body, which would be useful for things like glaze

formulas, etc., simply enclosing the body with such a  tag

would make it look like that way.



I've put an image of what I'm talking about here:





It would be cool if there were a persistent preference (cookie) to

allow one to always view in proportional font to avoid those messages

that run off the screen.



Respectfully submissive,



Maurice, in slightly drizzly Fairfax, California, where we've yet to

turn the heat on (70% rate hike), and where I'm enjoying watching

Roger Clemens get smacked around a bit in the top of the 6th.   Go

Cards!



Ever wonder what 2000 looks like?