BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on tue 1 nov 05
Hello All,
Just to add a little fuel to the on-going fire of designing your own
website, I have some evidence as to why I support the idea of letting a
profession do your website.
Case in point:
Richard Dewar, An English chap that does Salt Glazed Stoneware. You've mayb=
e
seen his work in "Salt Glazing" by Phil Rogers, "Salt-Glaze Ceramics" by
Rosemary Cochrane, and he has a book called "Stoneware" that he has
authored.
Here is a piece that is both on his website and in all of the aforementione=
d
books: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dewar.ceramics/gall03.jpg
Take a look at that picture.
Now, try to imagine how that pot would look sitting in a nice gallery.
Now, let's look at his website: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dewar.ceramics/
Yikes.
For comparison, Peg Malloy (a woodfirer) has a wonderful site:
http://www.pegmalloypottery.com/
She has a wonderfully basic site that I'm sure didn't cost a bundle.
Now, which site would you rather have?
Upon showing my girlfriend (also a potter) Mr. Dewar's site, she gasped and
said "You should offer to do his site for some pots".
Now, a caveat, there are some people out there that do their own site, and
do it well. Some on the list. I'm simply try to illustrate how a good potte=
r
can commit online murder by not hiring a professional.
I'm also assuming Mr. Dewar is making his own site due to the fact he
doesn't have a proper domain name and no mention of a design company.
Also, you can check out my site. It's just my logo and my email right now
though. Do as I say, not as I do, or whatever. ;)
Flame on!
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on wed 2 nov 05
Geoffrey,
While this is a valid point, although I don't know if this is really the
best place to argue the pro's and con's of standards based development.
There are thousands of blog posts out there for that discussion.
I agree that XHTML + CSS while aide in speed of development, ease of
maintenence, etc. (mostly the designers problems), it also is inherently
flawed in that the majority of users out there aren't use using a browser
that supports standards. Firefox and Safari are not the norm and IE bugs ar=
e
the bane of every designers existance.
At this point in time (as in today, Wednesday November 2, 2005) table based
layouts are perfectally acceptable, IMO.
Also, this is totally splitting hairs. :D
BJ Clark
On 11/2/05, Geoffrey Gaskell wrote:
>
> I agree that the basic look of Peg Molloy's site is instantly attractive
> in its
> simplicity & looks professional. However it is not perfect. I had a quick
> look
> at the source code & I don't understand why tables are being used for
> positioning! The use of tables for this purpose will soon be depreciated
> as
> XHTML & CSS standards take over. CSS is more than sufficient to allow for
> absolute or relative positioning of all elements. Tables should now only
> be
> used to accomodate the sort of things found in spreadsheets or in the
> tables of
> a printed book.
>
> I would not be too hard on Richard Dewar's site: it is presumably an over=
t
> expression of a down to earth sort of character. I would not create a sit=
e
> like
> his for myself, but if this is the sort of site he wants for himself, so
> be it.
> I agree that he could at least benefit by registering his own domain name
> though. The only other comment I have is that Richard Dewar probably does
> need
> a few lessons in basic photography.
>
> Those who see my own site will see plenty of faults in overall appearance=
,
> but
> at least it validates as XHTML & CSS. I am such a control freak when it
> comes
> to people not being able to tamper with the structure, that I've now
> decided to
> use PageMaker to create little booklets which I will then transform into
> Acrobat PDF e-texts. These will then be set up as bare-boned links on a
> text
> only front-page. The result will be a very bland first impression, but on=
e
> which conceals something more colourful for those who persevere.
>
> Geoffrey Gaskell
> http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
www.stinkingdesert.com
Kathi LeSueur on wed 2 nov 05
BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>Just to add a little fuel to the on-going fire of designing your own
>website, I have some evidence as to why I support the idea of letting a
>profession do your website.>>>>
>
I've seen an amazing number of lousy websites done by "professionals".
I've seen lots of beautiful websites done by "professionals" that don't
work. I've seen lots of web sites that are beautiful to look at but
don't really tell me what I need to know....How do I buy some of this
stuff? I've tried to go to lots of websites of artists without using
their exact web address because I didn't know it. I couldn't get there.
It would be like a customer of mine searching for "LeSueur Claywork"
because she didn't know the web address and never getting to the site.
So, I'm not arguing against the "professional" designer. But, before you
pay someone to do it, take a hard look at what they've already done.
Try to go to one of their sites without using the exact web address. Can
you do it? Ask lots of questions. And don't make that final payment
until the site is up and running for at least 90 days. Once the final
payment is made the problems might just be your's rather than the
designer's.
Kathi
>
>
>
BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on wed 2 nov 05
Kathi,
I agree (maybe not about the payment, but then you should make sure there i=
s
some sort of satisfaction guarantee in the contract the designer will give
you).
Always always always shop around.
I have a bit of time, so let me give some guidelines as to what you should
be looking for when hiring a designer.
1. Portfolio: The designer should be able to give you at least 10 sites tha=
t
they have done. Make sure it says they created it on the site, and not some
other company.
2. Time Frame/Cost/Complexity: You're only going to get two of these. If yo=
u
need it fast, it's either gonna be cheap and simple or complex and
expensive. Etc.
3. Unrealistic Expectations: A site is going to take a while to develop. Yo=
u
have to provide all the content, or pay them to do it. The slower you are
with content, the slower they will be to make the site.
4. Technical Stuff: You want your own domain name with your name or your
pottery's name in the domain name. PegMalloyPottery.com TonyFerguson.com,
etc. How hard is that to remember? Shorter Domains are better. Your company
should provide hosting. This is normal and you'll slow them down if you
insist on providing your own. You can easily change later if you go to a
different company.
5. Information: Be responsible for making sure all the necessary info is
there. You don't have to have a huge ecommerce website that is updated dail=
y
with inventory and such. You do need all your contact information (people
have been putting their info on their websites for years now, it's perfectl=
y
safe, and expected!). You do need to tell people how to purchase your work.
You do need LOTS of pictures of your work. GOOD pictures.
6. Use a webdesign company. Usually "Ad Agencies" and "Design" Agencies are
more expensive and not as good as companies that actually specialize in web
design. Not to harp on Peg Malloy's site, but it's done by these people:
http://www.stormkingdesign.com/ (I don't work for them, know them, I'm not
advocating them, I'm just using them as an example). Notice that they list
Web Design as the first thing in the title of their website. They specializ=
e
in web design and it shows. They have customer testimonials (including
"Carbondale Clay Center").
How do I know all this? Web design pays my bills. I've done it for 5 or 6
years now.
Hope this helps anyone decide out there.
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
On 11/2/05, Kathi LeSueur wrote:
>
> BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics wrote:
>
> >Hello All,
> >
> >Just to add a little fuel to the on-going fire of designing your own
> >website, I have some evidence as to why I support the idea of letting a
> >profession do your website.>>>>
> >
>
> I've seen an amazing number of lousy websites done by "professionals".
> I've seen lots of beautiful websites done by "professionals" that don't
> work. I've seen lots of web sites that are beautiful to look at but
> don't really tell me what I need to know....How do I buy some of this
> stuff? I've tried to go to lots of websites of artists without using
> their exact web address because I didn't know it. I couldn't get there.
> It would be like a customer of mine searching for "LeSueur Claywork"
> because she didn't know the web address and never getting to the site.
>
> So, I'm not arguing against the "professional" designer. But, before you
> pay someone to do it, take a hard look at what they've already done.
> Try to go to one of their sites without using the exact web address. Can
> you do it? Ask lots of questions. And don't make that final payment
> until the site is up and running for at least 90 days. Once the final
> payment is made the problems might just be your's rather than the
> designer's.
>
> Kathi
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Jennifer Boyer on thu 3 nov 05
I have to agree. I've done my own(table based) web site for years, and
when a friend who had taken a course in Dreamweaver gave me the "tables
are obsolete" speech I panicked.
But I've been looking at the source code of many sites I go to and most
are table based. So if tables cease to be supported any time soon the
web is going to be dysfunctional! Also, my Adobe Golive manuals do warn
that CSS remains unstable on some common browsers at this point,
especially when it somes to layout.. I'm learning CSS a bit at a time,
but will take my time switching over to it. No need to panic!!
Jennifer, about to make a web site for my vet for barter: 3 Pugs over 8
yrs old keep my vet bills coming....
On Nov 3, 2005, at 12:14 AM, BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics wrote:
> Geoffrey,
> While this is a valid point, although I don't know if this is really
> the
> best place to argue the pro's and con's of standards based development.
> There are thousands of blog posts out there for that discussion.
> I agree that XHTML + CSS while aide in speed of development, ease of
> maintenence, etc. (mostly the designers problems), it also is
> inherently
> flawed in that the majority of users out there aren't use using a
> browser
> that supports standards. Firefox and Safari are not the norm and IE
> bugs are
> the bane of every designers existance.
> At this point in time (as in today, Wednesday November 2, 2005) table
> based
> layouts are perfectally acceptable, IMO.
> Also, this is totally splitting hairs. :D
>
> BJ Clark
>
> On 11/2/05, Geoffrey Gaskell wrote:
>>
>> I agree that the basic look of Peg Molloy's site is instantly
>> attractive
>> in its
>> simplicity & looks professional. However it is not perfect. I had a
>> quick
>> look
>> at the source code & I don't understand why tables are being used for
>> positioning! The use of tables for this purpose will soon be
>> depreciated
>> as
************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
Alyssa Ettinger on thu 3 nov 05
i think whether to design, or not to design, is really a matter of the
audience you wish to attract and the way you see your business.
mine's professionally done (still needs some tweaking) but, i think,
reflects the fact that i'm a potter *and* a designer, and that my work is
high-end. aside from buyers looking at it, i want magazines and interior
designers and stylists to look at it as well, to see how they can use my
work in their work.
alyssa
www.alyssaettinger.com
brian on thu 3 nov 05
My own thoughts on this topic are as follows
I could never ask someone else to design and layout my site .
I have a lot of information and images and there are too many things
in it that I need to control and change from time to time and go on
adding new pages.
I like the idea that it is a personal document.....
I did not need to learn html.
I started from scratch four years ago with a very basic programme
that made a simple page.
then I learned to make links to other pages and best of all make
"hotspots" (image maps)
Black and white and one other colour for emphasis
Careful labelling of the pages was essential.......
No fancy animations or trendy tricks. No frames
Laying out basic text and jpegs, links and image maps.........with
those things confidence grew and it was easier to ask questions or
find answers to later needs like connecting to a host etc. There are
always people around who can help with minor frustrations
you pick up the "lingo" as you go along
Most work came from having to prepare all the images which needs
skills in "photoshop" or similar..that takes time.....a lot of time.
My guess is that if a person buys a web designers skills it would
still save you many dollars to prepare your own images as you want to
see them.
It takes time to get established on the web. Having the site listed
on other sites is good
swapping links is good
I am getting over 100 visitors a day
Have a look. Use the URL in the sig
--
Brian Gartside
http://www.gartside.info
Pukekohe, New Zealand
Geoffrey Gaskell on thu 3 nov 05
I agree that the basic look of Peg Molloy's site is instantly attractive in its
simplicity & looks professional. However it is not perfect. I had a quick look
at the source code & I don't understand why tables are being used for
positioning! The use of tables for this purpose will soon be depreciated as
XHTML & CSS standards take over. CSS is more than sufficient to allow for
absolute or relative positioning of all elements. Tables should now only be
used to accomodate the sort of things found in spreadsheets or in the tables of
a printed book.
I would not be too hard on Richard Dewar's site: it is presumably an overt
expression of a down to earth sort of character. I would not create a site like
his for myself, but if this is the sort of site he wants for himself, so be it.
I agree that he could at least benefit by registering his own domain name
though. The only other comment I have is that Richard Dewar probably does need
a few lessons in basic photography.
Those who see my own site will see plenty of faults in overall appearance, but
at least it validates as XHTML & CSS. I am such a control freak when it comes
to people not being able to tamper with the structure, that I've now decided to
use PageMaker to create little booklets which I will then transform into
Acrobat PDF e-texts. These will then be set up as bare-boned links on a text
only front-page. The result will be a very bland first impression, but one
which conceals something more colourful for those who persevere.
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz
Geoffrey Gaskell on fri 4 nov 05
If left entirely to my own devices, I would tend also to agree that there is no
need to hit the panic button & abandon table based design at the present time.
However, I have an instructor looking over my shoulder, so to speak who takes
the sort of hard-line on development issues which my previous message
uncompromisingly expressed.
For me the real tragedy is that web publishing is so hit or miss in terms of
presentation because of the lack of absolute standards in browsers, internet
technologies etc. Also the developers of all these competing technologies, bits
& pieces etc will also tend to have a vested interest in maintaining the messy
status quo, but further lamentation on this issue belongs elsewhere...
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz/
Bonnie Staffel on fri 4 nov 05
Dear Clayarters,
I just have to say that the friend who designed my web site is so
talented in many ways including his art work. He has added, tweaked,
redesigned my site to keep it looking fresh. He told me that I should
make pots and he will do the HTML when I wanted to learn to make my blog
page myself. Just this simple thing and I could not finish it up. So
he has taken care of that task when I send him the photo and text.
However, he is going through some tough personal times and is not
available to handle my site for now. If I could just learn a few tricks
of changing text and photos, I could probably do it myself. But my mind
seems to freeze up when the language passes through my brain. I even
purchased "Front Page" program but I could not find the answers to my
problems there that I could understand.
Clay is my name and clay is my game.
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
DVD or Video Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD or Video Beginning Processes
Charter Member Potters Council
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