Richard Mahaffey on wed 2 nov 05
Mel is right about the rhythm.
Some of my pots are loose, but I have to have control to get there. It
took me 36 years to get the kind of looseness that I like in my pots.
I now woodfire my pots since I have no studio at home and I can fire
with a good crew where we do not drink much, and certainly do not talk
down about oxidation potters since oxidation glazes are soooooooo
difficult to apply. We have a tight crew and we respect each other
and we respect each other's work.
I do suffer a bit since I have to teach and then pull an 8.5 hours
shift then drive home (1 hour) to be at school the next morning. That
is my situation, not a badge of manhood. It is not a big deal unless
we want/need to fire that 6th night.............
I think you need to work through control to get to loose or it tends to
look contrived (at least my stuff looked that way).
Mel is also right about practice.........I would have to practice for a
few months to make pots truly worthy of a Gas kiln and a few months
more to make pots that would look good in an electric firing. It is
because I have been making these woodfire pieces for a few years now
and I have spent time developing that forms that I want/like.
Rick Mahaffey - just back from an international conference in Mexico-
my first trip (felt like home) I wonder what affect it will have on my
work in the future...................
Tacoma, WA
Ann Brink on thu 3 nov 05
Hello Richard,
Would you expand a bit on the your statements below? I fire mostly
oxidation, and don't know what you mean by glazes being sooooodifficult to
apply. Do you mean that oxidation is less forgiving? or that not as many
techniques "work" in oxidation?
Regarding differing pots for wood/gas/electric firings....I know there are
stereotypical "wood-fired" pots, but there are folks on this list who
woodfire and make careful, even precise pots. It's true that you get glaze
and clay body differences with reduction compared to oxidation, but in what
direction would you alter your pots for the different firings? Just
asking....
Ann Brink in Lompoc CA
From: "Richard Mahaffey"
,snip...." and certainly do not talk
> down about oxidation potters since oxidation glazes are soooooooo
> difficult to apply. >
snip:
>I would have to practice for a
> few months to make pots truly worthy of a Gas kiln and a few months
> more to make pots that would look good in an electric firing.
Bonnie Staffel on fri 4 nov 05
I have battled with this problem for many years. I consider myself a
classic style potter and my work has always reflected that. However, I
really admire those potters with the ability to throw "loose." One of
my earliest memories of seeing a change was in Daniel Rhodes work when
he returned from a sojourn in Japan quite a few years ago. He gave a
workshop showing what happened to him and how he loosened up. He sat at
a kick wheel and seemed so relaxed while he pulled these small tea
bowls. They were all "crookedy and lopsided" in some way but at the
same time very attractive. Believe me, I have tried it and mine do not
look attractive. Of course you know that he has "paid his dues" by
learning the basic elements of design, knowledge of his clay, etc. What
bothers me after Peter Voulkos, also a great classic potter, released
his students into the world, the new potters were given permission to
let it all hang out. They did not go through the basics of learning
design and/or clay techniques but just got "loose" IMHO. I have seen
work shown on websites and in galleries similar to what I used to throw
into the scrap. I guess I just don't have the eye to see when I make a
loose pot that it might be good.
What I love about the pit fire technique is that I have released that
pot to the vagaries of the fire. No control, just fun and excitement.
I guess that is my "loose" for now.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
DVD or Video Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD or Video Beginning Processes
Charter Member Potters Council
Liz Willoughby on fri 4 nov 05
Bonnie S. says:
>I have battled with this problem for many years. I consider myself a
>classic style potter and my work has always reflected that. However, I
>really admire those potters with the ability to throw "loose." One of
>my earliest memories of seeing a change was in Daniel Rhodes work when
>he returned from a sojourn in Japan quite a few years ago. He gave a
>workshop showing what happened to him and how he loosened up. He sat at
>a kick wheel and seemed so relaxed while he pulled these small tea
>bowls. They were all "crookedy and lopsided" in some way but at the
>same time very attractive.
> I have seen work shown on websites and in galleries similar to
>what I used to throw
into the scrap.
Bonnie,
I used to be an extremely meticulous worker in clay. Tight forms,
very well finished. The strangest thing happened to me when I was
throwing mugs one day, about 11 years ago. This is after a painful
separation, and my head seemed to be in some kind of a zen state.
Still can't understand what happened, because it was not a conscious
decision. Somehow, I started loosely throwing these mugs, and once I
started I couldn't stop. It was very liberating. And I think the
forms were good.
I still make those "meticulously loose" pots. There seems to be a
rhythm that comes through the fingers to the clay. Almost like a
slow jazz piece. Well, I listen to a lot of jazz when I work.
So, I think you cannot force the looseness. You just get into that
space, and it happens.
I agree, a lot of contrived "looseness" belongs in the recycle bin.
--
Liz from Grafton, Ontario, Canada
"Three grand essentials to happiness in this life are . . . something
to do, something to love, and something to hope for."
Joseph Addison
claybair on tue 8 nov 05
Yikes.... I just got hit with a 2x4......
after reading this thread
I actually looked at my pots and my paintings
and realized my work is pretty tight!
Hmmmm........ and it only took 50 years to
realize it! No judgment just a realization.
You know something sitting right in your face
and you don't recognize or see it until the right conditions
makes it visible.
Thanks Lee.
Gayle Bair - verryyy sloooow
Bainbridge Island, WA
Tucson, AZ
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Love
On 2005/11/09 6:01:45, Malcolm Schosha
mailto:malcolm_schosha@yahoo.com]> wrote:
> What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior.
It is superior to be able to choose how you want to
throw. If we only make work like machines, we might as well let the
machines do it. They are much better at precision. It is human
feeling/spirit that sets our hand made work apart from machine work.
But we also need the eye and the ability to discern. If we
lack this ability, we need the help of people who can tell the
difference. These abilities do not always reside in the same
person. In the past, the technician worked with the artist or the tea
master to make superior work. Today, we have the economic luxury
and the universal education that democracy enables, for these two
abilities to reside within a single individual, if they are so gifted.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."
--Leonardo da Vinci
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John Jensen on tue 8 nov 05
When I first started throwing my bowl shapes for toadhouses, I used =
various
mechanical aids such as shaped ribs, and calipers to make sure that each =
was
very similar to the others. I imagined that there would come a day when =
I
would become so skilled at making these forms that I would be able to =
make
them look "loose" while still being the right size and shape. When I
started I was making six an hour...doing a lot of measuring. As time =
went
by, I got to make twelve, then twenty an hour. Then forty, then sixty =
an
hour. I really couldn't get much looser, they just come off my fingers =
like
magic; but they are still as exact as they ever were. If not more so. =
At
this point, I'm not sure what I thought "loose" would be. Maybe, wobbly =
but
nice looking, I guess. To me now, loose means fluent. Like someone who =
is
comfortable speaking a language: they say exactly what they mean, but it
seems casual and effortless. There is a kind of grace, maybe. Paul =
Newman
in _The Hustler_...loose, but precise. B.B. King playing the
guitar...loose, but precise.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
John Jensen@mudbugpottery.com
http://www.toadhouse.com www://www.mudbugpottery.com
Lee Love on tue 8 nov 05
Bonnie S. says:
> >my earliest memories of seeing a change was in Daniel Rhodes work when
> >he returned from a sojourn in Japan quite a few years ago. He gave a
> >workshop showing what happened to him and how he loosened up. He sat at
> >a kick wheel and seemed so relaxed while he pulled these small tea
> >bowls. They were all "crookedy and lopsided" in some way but at the
> >same time very attractive.
>
From: *Liz Willoughby* > wrote:
> I used to be an extremely meticulous worker in clay. Tight forms,
> very well finished. The strangest thing happened to me when I was
> throwing mugs one day, about 11 years ago. This is after a painful
> separation, and my head seemed to be in some kind of a zen state.
Liz, I think mediation helps. So does bringing
breath practices from mediation, to the wheel work.
The great majority of Japanese pots are not loose, but are
tight and controlled. It is similar if you look at the way they do
martial arts: it is very regimented and formal. You could say
Japanese karate is like classical music, whereas Filipino martial arts
are like Jazz. It is why I ended up studying Filipino and Chinese
martial arts.
Much of what we consider as looseness in Japanese ceramics was
introduced by Korean ware and the tea masters promoting this work
amongst a very small crowd. The shino wares from Mino were promoted by
the same people, but were only made for about 60 years. Raku came
from the same masters as did Oribe. Many of the ancient kiln works
that we are aware of, were selected by teamasters and were often simply
accidents.
The favorite table ware in Japan has been Arita porcelain. If you
walk through the farmer's fields, mostly what you see are blue & white
porcelain shards, either from Arita or work made in Seto inspired by
Arita. When one of Hamada's grandsons did a presentation at
NCECA, he showed what pots were favored in Japan at the time of
Minagawa teapots: it was Satsuma enamel ware.
After my apprenticeship, it took me almost 2 years to
shake my training off. In the apprenticeship, you are forced to be
very exact. Sometimes, apprentices never shake off their
training. They continue to make precise, exact, lifeless work. It
is hard for the caged bird to realize that the cage is gone.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Human subtlety will never devise an invention more beautiful,
more simple or more direct than does Nature,
because in her inventions, nothing is lacking and nothing is superfluous."
--Leonardo da Vinci
Malcolm Schosha on tue 8 nov 05
Lee Love wrote:
After my apprenticeship, it took me almost 2 years to
shake my training off. In the apprenticeship, you are forced to be
very exact. Sometimes, apprentices never shake off their
training. They continue to make precise, exact, lifeless work. It
is hard for the caged bird to realize that the cage is gone.
...............................................
Lee,
What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior. You obviously do prefer loose to tight, and that is fine with me. I do have a problem with you insistence that loose is the higher path because that is negating the work of many great potters, past and present.
In my view, loose work can be just as lifeless as some tight work. Life energy, and ceramic beauty, can be found in either loose or tight pots. There are the many factors that come from the interior of the potter, and are not found in throwing style.
However, it is pretty hard to make great pots without a good mastery of technique. To me it seems that is one of the greatest problems coming from the loose style of throwing is that many beginners who are drawn to the loose style of pottery are mislead into thinking that mastering technique is detrimental to good pottery, or at least not necessary. What a mistake! Just the opposite is true, and some potentially good potters accomplish less than they might have because they avoided the difficulties of technical mastery.
Be well.
Malcolm Schosha
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
Potter, Mark on tue 8 nov 05
Pots are not tight or loose at all. They're clay.
Only minds are tight or loose.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Malcolm
Schosha
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 11:21 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Tight Vs. Loose throwing
Lee Love wrote:
After my apprenticeship, it took me almost 2 years to
shake my training off. In the apprenticeship, you are forced to be
very exact. Sometimes, apprentices never shake off their
training. They continue to make precise, exact, lifeless work. It
is hard for the caged bird to realize that the cage is gone.
...............................................
Lee,
What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior. You
obviously do prefer loose to tight, and that is fine with me. I do have
a problem with you insistence that loose is the higher path because that
is negating the work of many great potters, past and present.
In my view, loose work can be just as lifeless as some tight work. Life
energy, and ceramic beauty, can be found in either loose or tight pots.
There are the many factors that come from the interior of the potter,
and are not found in throwing style.
However, it is pretty hard to make great pots without a good mastery of
technique. To me it seems that is one of the greatest problems coming
from the loose style of throwing is that many beginners who are drawn to
the loose style of pottery are mislead into thinking that mastering
technique is detrimental to good pottery, or at least not necessary.
What a mistake! Just the opposite is true, and some potentially good
potters accomplish less than they might have because they avoided the
difficulties of technical mastery.
Be well.
Malcolm Schosha
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
________________________________________________________________________
______
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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melpots@pclink.com.
2ley on tue 8 nov 05
From: "Malcolm Schosha"
> However, it is pretty hard to make great pots without a good mastery of
> technique. To me it seems that is one of the greatest problems coming from
> the loose style of throwing is that many beginners who are drawn to the
> loose style of pottery are mislead into thinking that mastering technique
> is detrimental to good pottery, or at least not necessary. What a mistake!
> Just the opposite is true, and some potentially good potters accomplish
> less than they might have because they avoided the difficulties of
> technical mastery.
Without delving into the debate about whether loose is better than tight,
the point about technical mastery is a good one. Lee obviously spent time
mastering technique, and it shows.
The thing is, this is a debate in more areas than just ceramics. Take
Picasso, for example. His early work was focused on developing technique,
and he mastered his media. It was not until after doing so that he was able
to explode away from tradition in a meaningful way. Most of the great
abstractionists and impressionists had similar training as well.
We see the same issue now in photography. Anyone can grab a digital camera,
go out and shoot a scene, and photoshop it enough to make a pretty picture.
But until the techniques of composition, tonal range and contrast are
mastered, the photos are still pretty much average. And then there's the
issue of having something to say with your photos, which takes a lot of
practice and nuance. Then, once that's accomplished, you see truly great
photographers going out and exploring their own visions, sometimes by
totally breaking away from the mold.
For myself, I feel I'm still in the initial phase of building technique, but
I'm also starting to develop my eye towards the looser styles and
deconstructionism. Maybe in a few years I'll feel my skills are where they
need to be, but, if my photography is any clue, I'll return often and long
to revisit and improve my basic technique.
Philip Tuley
near a lake in Northern California
and building a studio
Malcolm Schosha on tue 8 nov 05
Yes, pots are ideas (and more) made visible in clay. But, nevertheless, this is a pottery forum; not a transpersonal psychology forum.
Malcolm Schosha
........................................
"Potter, Mark" wrote:
Pots are not tight or loose at all. They're clay.
Only minds are tight or loose.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Malcolm
Schosha
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 11:21 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Tight Vs. Loose throwing
Lee Love wrote:
After my apprenticeship, it took me almost 2 years to
shake my training off. In the apprenticeship, you are forced to be
very exact. Sometimes, apprentices never shake off their
training. They continue to make precise, exact, lifeless work. It
is hard for the caged bird to realize that the cage is gone.
...............................................
Lee,
What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior. You
obviously do prefer loose to tight, and that is fine with me. I do have
a problem with you insistence that loose is the higher path because that
is negating the work of many great potters, past and present.
In my view, loose work can be just as lifeless as some tight work. Life
energy, and ceramic beauty, can be found in either loose or tight pots.
There are the many factors that come from the interior of the potter,
and are not found in throwing style.
However, it is pretty hard to make great pots without a good mastery of
technique. To me it seems that is one of the greatest problems coming
from the loose style of throwing is that many beginners who are drawn to
the loose style of pottery are mislead into thinking that mastering
technique is detrimental to good pottery, or at least not necessary.
What a mistake! Just the opposite is true, and some potentially good
potters accomplish less than they might have because they avoided the
difficulties of technical mastery.
Be well.
Malcolm Schosha
__________________________________________________
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2ley on tue 8 nov 05
From: "Malcolm Schosha"
> Yes, pots are ideas (and more) made visible in clay. But, nevertheless,
> this is a pottery forum; not a transpersonal psychology forum.
And the difference is....?
Sorry, I jest. Working with clay is a form of therapy, of meditation, and
of sharing with each other. The debate on loose vs tight is not merely
about technique, but also about the motivation behind the method, much as
what is art is not determined by the product, but by the mindset of the
person who is doing the creating.
To ignore the inner workings of the potters is to ignore the eventual
creation of their hands.
Philip Tuley
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 9 nov 05
Hi Malcom,
Yup...
...it is all about 'water' and not-about 'wet'...
Like that then?
Lol-ing,
Phil
el vuh-heeee...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Schosha"
> Yes, pots are ideas (and more) made visible in clay. But, nevertheless,
this is a pottery forum; not a transpersonal psychology forum.
>
> Malcolm Schosha
Geoffrey Gaskell on wed 9 nov 05
Potter, Mark potter@sextantsearch.com]> wrote:
>
> Pots are not tight or loose at all. They're clay.
> Only minds are tight or loose.
My suggested amendment to this pithy statement is as follows:
"Purse strings are either tight or loose. If the purse has money in it, then
misers are tight; spenthrifts are loose." I think this general statement is
guaranteed to be applicable in a wider range of actual situations than the
original statement.
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz/
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Malcolm Schosha on wed 9 nov 05
Lee,
It still sounds to me that you are saying that your view on this is the only correct view. I had some hope that you might concede that other approaches and goals than your own that have value also. It seems to me that potters can follow their own path without dismissing all other ways as worthless. Is asking for tolerance of a variety of approaches to pottery asking for too much?
Tight throwing is not working like a machine, and tight work does not exclude spirit from work any more than loose work guarantees its presence.
Strange that you quote Leonardo, who had such a tight painting style.
Be well.
Malcolm Schosha
Lee Love wrote:
On 2005/11/09 6:01:45, Malcolm Schosha
mailto:malcolm_schosha@yahoo.com]> wrote:
> What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior.
It is superior to be able to choose how you want to
throw. If we only make work like machines, we might as well let the
machines do it. They are much better at precision. It is human
feeling/spirit that sets our hand made work apart from machine work.
But we also need the eye and the ability to discern. If we
lack this ability, we need the help of people who can tell the
difference. These abilities do not always reside in the same
person. In the past, the technician worked with the artist or the tea
master to make superior work. Today, we have the economic luxury
and the universal education that democracy enables, for these two
abilities to reside within a single individual, if they are so gifted.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."
--Leonardo da Vinci
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
---------------------------------
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Lee Love on wed 9 nov 05
John Jensen wrote:
> B.B. King playing the guitar...loose, but precise.
Blues is similar to my comparison of Japanese to Filipino martial
arts. My favorite music is Bach string quartets, Blues, and Irish
Folk.
I think loose and tight are elements that are independent of
aesthetic value. I have seen many very crappy "loose" pots. Of
course, beginners can only make loose pots, because they don't have
skill to be precise. Where the beauty comes in, is when you can
be precise or gestural, according to what the form calls for.
We might be inclined one way or the other, but if we are
going to grow, it is good to work on our inferior skills, rather than
always depend upon what we are good at. If we only do what we are
good at, we end up copying ourselves and our work becomes clinches or
even worse, parodies of who we are.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Human subtlety will never devise an invention more beautiful,
more simple or more direct than does Nature, because in her
inventions, nothing is lacking and nothing is superfluous."
--Leonardo da Vinci
Lee Love on wed 9 nov 05
On 2005/11/09 6:01:45, Malcolm Schosha
mailto:malcolm_schosha@yahoo.com]> wrote:
> What you are saying, once again, is that loose throwing is superior.
It is superior to be able to choose how you want to
throw. If we only make work like machines, we might as well let the
machines do it. They are much better at precision. It is human
feeling/spirit that sets our hand made work apart from machine work.
But we also need the eye and the ability to discern. If we
lack this ability, we need the help of people who can tell the
difference. These abilities do not always reside in the same
person. In the past, the technician worked with the artist or the tea
master to make superior work. Today, we have the economic luxury
and the universal education that democracy enables, for these two
abilities to reside within a single individual, if they are so gifted.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."
--Leonardo da Vinci
Ron Roy on thu 10 nov 05
I agree with Lee here - loose or tight is a personal preference - like
colour and surface.
What makes a container significant in an aesthetic context is the form - or
rather the space inside - at least in my opinion.
I think my best pots have both by the way - tight and loose in the same
piece. The contrast makes for better visual interest to me.
RR
> I think loose and tight are elements that are independent of
>aesthetic value. I have seen many very crappy "loose" pots. Of
>course, beginners can only make loose pots, because they don't have
>skill to be precise. Where the beauty comes in, is when you can
>be precise or gestural, according to what the form calls for.
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 10 nov 05
Dear Friends,
I have no issues with opinions expressed so far in this thread.
But I do have a problem with terminology.
The two main descriptors "Tight" and "Loose" seem to be terms which are =
wide open to multiple interpretations. So, we can chase the arguments =
around for ever.
I would like to introduce an alternative term. Why don't we talk about =
"Fluency". It seems to me that this is a much better term to use =
something that does not look "Mechanical" in form or execution.
As with Language where Fluency implies a degree of mastery that allows =
freedom of expression, so with Clay, creating objects of grace and =
style.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
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