mel jacobson on sat 5 nov 05
the irritation with the leland hall saga is:
we have well over 2000 people reading clayart, from 80 countries.
if you have an idea to help someone...post them privately. or a few
of you post back and forth. get the problem solved.
sending ideas for fund raising, help...or starting your own fund
raising idea to the group does not fly. we do not have
validating methods here on clayart to do that.
yes, we have done some of that in the past...but we have also
been burned. so care is needed..and caution...and clear thinking.
often if gets like an andy hardy movie of 1938.`let's do a play`. gobs of fun.` and, it all works out, new york and broadway
in a week.
so, i have explained this to leland, and he was not asking
for another hand out. if folks want to help him, or have
a kiln or equipment that you could aid him with...send him
a letter, call him or take care of business.
this cannot be twenty emails a day to the list.
in fact the one that could get hurt the most is leland.
and, shipping a used kiln a thousand miles, without proper packing
technique, knowledge and funds could create a monster mess for
leland when it arrives. those boxes, pallets, cardboard support systems
that skutt, paragon use are very well engineered. and, i am very aware
that kilns travel on trucks. but i also know they are not shipped without
perfect packing.
in my study of moving pots to california, it would have cost me well
into 4,000 bucks to rent a rider/drive to cal. unload and fly home.
do the math. plus waste 8 days. if you ship an old kiln, don't pack it
perfectly...you will have a pile of bricks on the floor of the truck when
it arrives. remember, a used kiln will fall apart in a `heart beat`. in fact
it would have to be packed better than a new one.
moderator.
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Vince Pitelka on sat 5 nov 05
> the irritation with the leland hall saga is:
> we have well over 2000 people reading clayart, from 80 countries.
Irritation? Are you serious? Jesus Mel, who bit you in the butt? What
possible better use for Clayart could there be? People are rallying to help
a potter in need. Leland has touched our hearts and we want to help him. I
am sure that some of the arrangements can be made by private email, but the
way things like this get done is by group momentum, and Clayart is a
powerful group. We are discovering what we can accomplish as a group. I
would think you would be proud of what Clayart is doing to help Leland, and
I do not understand your attitude at all.
Please do not get in the way of us helping Leland. You are a good moderator
and you have a very positive influence in the clay world. You do a good job
of regulating Clayart when something gets out of hand, but in this case your
efforts are entirely misplaced.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Chris Schafale on sun 6 nov 05
Thanks, Vince, for saying what I wanted to say but didn't. I don't
understand Mel's attitude either, but I suspect it comes from some incident
I don't know about, in which his own impetuous generosity, which we've all
witnessed, either went to the wrong person or backfired in some way. Joyce
obviously knows about it, with her references to control, etc. Maybe it
happened when I was off Clayart, or maybe it was never spoken about
publicly at all, but there's obviously a bad taste in Mel's mouth about
helping people who put their needs out in this forum.
I understand the concern -- in a group like this, where only a small
fraction of us have actually gotten to know each other in person, it would
be very hard to tell a real hardship from a sob story from a scam. On the
other hand, Leland is not a newcomer to the group, and we've seen the
pictures of the fire, and CERF obviously thinks he is worth helping even if
not enough to meet his current needs.
Like Vince, I can't think of a better use for this group than to come
together around a member who has a real and pressing need. That's what
communities do, and if we are a real community, we will be willing to take
the risk. Not for anyone who comes along with a hard luck story, but for
people that we have known for years, who obviously can use the help.
As for boring the other 2000 potters around the world, this is far less
boring than any of dozens of nitpicking, quibbling,
gotta-have-the-last-word threads that we endure all the time. Besides,
generosity is good for the soul, and seeing generosity in action tends to
make it contagious. Maybe not everyone will help Leland, but many people
may be moved by his situation to make a contribution to CERF, or to help a
local potter or other person in need.
So, Mel may have his good reasons, and I'm sure he's affected by all the
crap coming into his mailbox that the rest of us don't see, but I hope he
will allow the rest of us to respectfully disagree.
Chris
At 07:12 PM 11/05/2005, you wrote:
>>the irritation with the leland hall saga is:
>>we have well over 2000 people reading clayart, from 80 countries.
>
>Irritation? Are you serious? Jesus Mel, who bit you in the butt? What
>possible better use for Clayart could there be? People are rallying to help
>a potter in need. Leland has touched our hearts and we want to help him. I
>am sure that some of the arrangements can be made by private email, but the
>way things like this get done is by group momentum, and Clayart is a
>powerful group. We are discovering what we can accomplish as a group. I
>would think you would be proud of what Clayart is doing to help Leland, and
>I do not understand your attitude at all.
>
>Please do not get in the way of us helping Leland. You are a good moderator
>and you have a very positive influence in the clay world. You do a good job
>of regulating Clayart when something gets out of hand, but in this case your
>efforts are entirely misplaced.
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
>Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
>vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
>http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Lee Love on sun 6 nov 05
*Vince Pitelka wrote:*
>Please do not get in the way of us helping Leland.
I am not trying to fiddle with what goes on in ClayArt,
but if you want to continue communicating about helping Leland, you are
welcomed to do it on this list:
http://groups.google.com/group/ClayCraft
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."
--Leonardo da Vinci
2ley on sun 6 nov 05
I have a wonderful wife who is on a discussion group called Sheep Thrills,
where they talk about all sorts of things, mostly wool oriented, but all
sorts of things. In comparison our group is incredibly on topic. So, when
we slip, we don't usually slip by much.
I also have been a moderator of a large discussion group, although not as
large as this one. Mel is doing a great job at keeping things at the
balance they currently are, a far better job than I, in my opinion.
All of this said, the issue of family is a touchy one. For those of us who
are strict constructionists, family means related by blood or marriage. For
those of us who are looser in our interpretation, it means those we choose
to include in what we call our family. For me, we are all family. That
belief is at the core of my spiritual being, and so, yes, you are all
family.
There are just a few of you who are, apparently, more like my denser cousin
than my brilliant aunt. But you're still part of my family. And I think
that's what Leland was speaking to in his post.
I am usually the outspoken, rather radical, eccentric uncle in my family.
I've been rather quiet in this gathering, since I've been enjoying learning
from you all. My opinions regarding art I have held inside, rather then
just jumping in as I usually do, out of respect for the discussions being
held.
Well, now that I've rambled on enough, let me just close with one thought.
Compared with those knitters, we're a bunch of creampuffs.
Philip Tuley
Elizabeth Priddy on sun 6 nov 05
The daily care and maintenace of the list would become
a complete wreck if all of us with problems started
talking about it here.
Even though the list feels like "family", it is not.
The list is a place where you are free to talk about all
of your personal issues regarding clay. Any other issue
you have, including cooking and tragedy, are not really
appropriate. I know this from experience. I can only
imagine what Leland has gotten offlist because of this.
This action by mel is probably more to protect Leland than
to dismiss or interrupt the flow of generosity.
Those of you with no idea of how vicious some of your "family"
here on clayart can be, bless your heart. But don't be so
naive.
The turkey and vegetarian stuff, I just delete. Because I
don't cook that way personally or for someone else. But
I know there is an appropriate listserv on Yahoo or Google
just for that and that will serve you better answers. Just
because Clayart feels cozy, doesn't make it the right place
for anything. I was once involved in a barbeque OT. I don't
regret it, but it was inappropo. I was new to the list at that
time, too.
But now I am old to it and have experienced both the highs and
lows of the "family" and you shoulf just think of ALL of your
own family being in a conversation. I feel the shudders through
the ether of the web at the thought.
Give the hosts to this party a break. They know what they are
doing and why. And the why would probably break your heart.
So don't go there.
Elizabeth Priddy
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
Leland Hall on sun 6 nov 05
Elizabeth,
Regarding your comment on "imagining what Leland has gotten offlist because
of this".
Instead of letting you "imagine", I'll just tell you, so's you know.
Overwhelming support and careing. That's what I have recieved off list.
Sure, I know that there are the "other" kind of folks out there. But for
some reason, they have left me alone.
Perhaps fewer folks will "kick a dog when it's down", than you "imagine".
Thank you for your concern though. I'll be allright. And soon too.
And to imagine that a potters studio burning is not about clay seems pretty
preposterous to me. But hey, I could be wrong.
Hey, you should maybe quit telling people who is their family, and who
isn't. That's a very personal choice. I don't think you have any right.
Mel wants this stopped. He said so. I have tried to help stop it. But I
felt compelled to respond to that portion of your comments.
Sincerely
Leland Hall
La Pine, Oregon
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:33:15 -0800, Elizabeth Priddy
wrote:
>The daily care and maintenace of the list would become
>a complete wreck if all of us with problems started
>talking about it here.
>
>Even though the list feels like "family", it is not.
>The list is a place where you are free to talk about all
>of your personal issues regarding clay. Any other issue
>you have, including cooking and tragedy, are not really
>appropriate. I know this from experience. I can only
>imagine what Leland has gotten offlist because of this.
>
>This action by mel is probably more to protect Leland than
>to dismiss or interrupt the flow of generosity.
>
>Those of you with no idea of how vicious some of your "family"
>here on clayart can be, bless your heart. But don't be so
>naive.
>
>The turkey and vegetarian stuff, I just delete. Because I
>don't cook that way personally or for someone else. But
>I know there is an appropriate listserv on Yahoo or Google
>just for that and that will serve you better answers. Just
>because Clayart feels cozy, doesn't make it the right place
>for anything. I was once involved in a barbeque OT. I don't
>regret it, but it was inappropo. I was new to the list at that
>time, too.
>
>But now I am old to it and have experienced both the highs and
>lows of the "family" and you shoulf just think of ALL of your
>own family being in a conversation. I feel the shudders through
>the ether of the web at the thought.
>
>Give the hosts to this party a break. They know what they are
>doing and why. And the why would probably break your heart.
>So don't go there.
>
>Elizabeth Priddy
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
claybair on mon 7 nov 05
Thanks Chris a well put response.
Now Mel, Vince, Joyce....
I love you and really do understand the positions you have taken.
Now I'm asking you to please trust us.
We all have a bit of life experience and realize that we may get
burnt when extending a helping hand.
Speaking for myself I know that helping is often the only way I am able
to ease my discomfort and pain.
The fact that someone else benefits makes me happy.
Whether the offering is used as we intend is out of our hands
the moment it leaves them.
So please let the postings continue and unless it is a blatant scam
let us make our decisions to lend or deny support.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
Tucson, AZ
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schafale
Thanks, Vince, for saying what I wanted to say but didn't. I don't
understand Mel's attitude either, but I suspect it comes from some incident
I don't know about, in which his own impetuous generosity, which we've all
witnessed, either went to the wrong person or backfired in some way. Joyce
obviously knows about it, with her references to control, etc. Maybe it
happened when I was off Clayart, or maybe it was never spoken about
publicly at all, but there's obviously a bad taste in Mel's mouth about
helping people who put their needs out in this forum.
Snip>
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