Wood Jeanne on sun 6 nov 05
Hi Daniel,
Interestingly, according to the research I've done
there is only about one craft that was not represented
by a guild and thus used the apprentice system in
Europe during the Middle Ages. Pottery.
You begin to see some evidence in Renaissance Germany,
and in earlier Byzantium.
Why not, I don't know??? And I consider it strange.
If anyone has evidence to contradict this I would
really appreciate knowing about it.
-Jeanne W.
--- Daniel Semler wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know of a written account of a English
> or continental European
> medieval apprenticeship in pottery ? Frankly, any
> trade or craft would be of
> interest, but pottery or carpentry would be ideal. I
> specifically thinking of
> an example within the Guild system.
>
> Thanx
> D
>
>
__________________________________
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Daniel Semler on sun 6 nov 05
Hi Rick,
Thanx for the links. Much there but it'll take me a while to get through it.
De Morgan describes Picolpasso (1 or 2 c's - don't know which is
correct yet -
I've seen both) as a Master Potter at Castel Durante and he apparently had a
nobelman patron. That said, I think one of the links you passed described him
as an amateur. I guess I'd like to be that kind of amateur. I'm certainly in
favour of having a patron :)
I wonder if the Three Books are to be had. They sound like a good read. I
believe Alan Caiger-Smith co-edited an English language edition.
I'm coming at this from William Morris and William De Morgan at this point.
I'm interested in gaining a picture of craft training as it was then
conducted.
I heard a guy on the radio the other night describe how an apprentice cooper
was passed out - ie. graduated from apprentice to journeyman. Apparently when
you're just about to put all the bands on the barrel, you've got everything
heated up and ready to go, you call out and a bunch of your mates rush
over and
help you complete the barrel. If its time to graduate they all know and noone
tells you. The next time you call out to assemble a barrel they rush over grab
you and put you in a barrel and roll you around the workshop in it and
out into
the street. At this point you are considered a journeyman. Apparently it could
be so rough that people would pass out, hence the name. I must look up
this guy
and his book. I have now tried and failed dismally. So, you'll have to make do
with the recollection above for now. I hope I haven't completely got it wrong.
Thanx for the info.
D
Daniel Semler on sun 6 nov 05
Hi All,
Does anyone know of a written account of a English or continental European
medieval apprenticeship in pottery ? Frankly, any trade or craft would be of
interest, but pottery or carpentry would be ideal. I specifically thinking of
an example within the Guild system.
Thanx
D
Rick Hamelin on sun 6 nov 05
Hi Dan.
I am a junky for this information and I would appreciate learning anything from you that you would care to share. Try http://www.medievalpottery.org.uk/
Good luck finding "The Natural History of Staffordshire" Oxford, 1685 by Robert Plot. This is concerns more of the geology but perhaps its bibliography may share a tidbit of info but I cannot accurately say if any information is found in it that you seek, but it is an early source.
I have numerous books that display a woodcut here and there of potters at work, kilns etc. If I find the time (quite busy with orders) to look at them I will email you the source if it is stated. I think that mostly what I have seen is from Three Books of the Potter's Art written in 1556 by Cipriano Piccolpasso, an amateur potter and resident of Castel Durante. This is the first treatise on pottery making published in Europe. In this early work, he details the methods of preparing clay, forming pottery on the wheel, glaze preparation and decorating, and firing procedures. http://netra.glendale.cc.ca.us/ceramics/piccolpassoillustration.html
Try http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~mcnamara/archaeology.html
http://www.shireofhartstone.org/pottery.html
http://scatoday.net/node/view/393
Good luck
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know of a written account of a English or continental European
> medieval apprenticeship in pottery ? Frankly, any trade or craft would be of
> interest, but pottery or carpentry would be ideal. I specifically thinking of
> an example within the Guild system.
>
> Thanx
> D
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
skiasonaranthropos@FSMAIL.NET on sun 6 nov 05
Hi Daniel,
Not quite the era you asked for but consider =93When I Was a Child=94 by
Charles Shaw published in 1908. Its the fascinating, and harrowing, story
of a man=92s Victorian childhood in the English pottery industry. Its still
in publication by Churnet Valley Books against ISBN 1897949464. Amazon
have currently got it listed
Regards,
Antony
Malcolm Schosha on sun 6 nov 05
The apprenticeship system continued until recent years in Italy. The guys I learned with all learned that way, starting when they were around 12 years old, in the early years of the 20th century. Now pottery is learned in schools located in the major pottery centers, and the graduates go to work in pottery factories, or studios, or become art-potters.
There is a novel written for young adults, called A Single Shard, describing a Korean pottery apprenticeship in the 13th century. I have not read it, but my youngest daughter (who is a children's librarian) said it is good.
Malcolm Schosha
Daniel Semler wrote:
Hi All,
Does anyone know of a written account of a English or continental European
medieval apprenticeship in pottery ? Frankly, any trade or craft would be of
interest, but pottery or carpentry would be ideal. I specifically thinking of
an example within the Guild system.
Thanx
D
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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Weiland, Jeff on mon 7 nov 05
Daniel,
I don't know whether this is what you are looking for or not but Lucca =
and Andrea della Robbia produced a great deal of terra cotta relief work =
during the Renaissance period of art history. From the what I remember =
from reading, they had apprentices assisting them which was part of the =
guild system of the times. Not quite Medieval but may be a starting =
place.
Jeff Weiland
Greenfield-Central High School
810 North Broadway
Greenfield, Indiana 46140
317-462-9211
jweiland@gcsc.k12.in.us
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Daniel
Semler
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:55 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Medieval Apprenticeships
Hi All,
Does anyone know of a written account of a English or continental =
European
medieval apprenticeship in pottery ? Frankly, any trade or craft would =
be of
interest, but pottery or carpentry would be ideal. I specifically =
thinking of
an example within the Guild system.
Thanx
D
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
Rick Hamelin on mon 7 nov 05
Hi Dan
One early English potter, I can't correctly remember if it was Elers or Astbury, "falsified" his intellect (faked that he was retarded) in the early 18th century to gain an apprenticeship into one of the shops and learn about salt glaze, which was a technique brought to England from Germany.
I worked 10 years at Old Sturbridge Village. Historically, I would venture that you had two types of apprenticeships, formal and informal. Many potters were supplementing their farming income by producing simple kitchen pots. Very seasonal, local production. Nothing fancy. The industrial potteries from the late 18th century into the mid-19th cent certainly saw some type of bound servitude and perhaps a formal apprenticeship. Hervey Brooks, the pottery shop at OSV, in his life, was a potter, cooper, church deacon, singing instructor, farmer. He apprenticed in CT to a Jesse Wadhams, who had a daughter who married John Norton. Hervey was a redware potter who made bean pots etc. Norton went to Bennington VT and worked in Stoneware and several whitewares. Hired a factory full of people. Got investors to expand his shop. Brought clays from NJ.
I have many friends who are coopers. It is recognized by historians that here were those who only made flour barrels and other dry storage containers because they could never learn how to make a tight- a water tight barrel.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Malcolm Schosha on mon 7 nov 05
Wood Jeanne wrote:
>Interestingly, according to the research I've done
there is only about one craft that was not represented
by a guild and thus used the apprentice system in
Europe during the Middle Ages. Pottery.
You begin to see some evidence in Renaissance Germany,
and in earlier Byzantium.
Why not, I don't know??? And I consider it strange.
If anyone has evidence to contradict this I would
really appreciate knowing about it.
-Jeanne W.
...............................................
My guess is that the obstacle to forming pottery guilds was money. Although pottery involved very long hours of hard work, the product was regarded as a cheep substitute for other materials. In ceramics, most of the real money was in porcelain, and that was imported from China until the manufacturing techniques were discovered in Europe, after which it was mostly made in factories which did not welcome guilds.
However, apprenticeship training did exist, and continued in Italy well into the 20th century.
Malcolm Schosha
---------------------------------
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Lee Love on mon 7 nov 05
I'd be happy to share any of my experiences, though they are in
Japan and not in Europe. There were times when I walked behind
Sensei with the other Deshis in a row like ducklings, where I felt like
we were living 400 years in the past. The only things that seem to
prove this wrong is were Sensei's faded jeans and the electric lines
running from one traditional building to the other.
Right now, I am reading a PHD dissertation (I now have
time, with the Fall Tokiichi festival come and gone) based upon
interviews of potters in Mashiko in the late 60s and early 70s, that is
titled:
"The Transition of the Artisan-potter to the Artist-potter In Mashiko,
A Folkware Kiln Site in Japan."
It has some interesting things to say about apprenticeships
of the time. Most of these opportunities have disappeared today. I
would like to help the author get it published.
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Human subtlety will never devise an invention more beautiful,
more simple or more direct than does Nature, because in her
inventions, nothing is lacking and nothing is superfluous."
--Leonardo da Vinci
Daniel Semler on mon 7 nov 05
Hi Lee,
Very kind of you to offer. My problem is that I'm not really sure what I'm
after. I am looking for a picture of that master/student relationship in the
trades. If we could sit down in a cafe and chat for a week, we'd cover the
ground :)
Having said that, any anecdotal stories that bear on the teacher/student
relationship, daily life in the work and so on, would be interesting to me.
Such things can be very personal and I do not wish to have anyone bring this
out in a public forum if it does not suit them to do so. Or in private
for that
matter. I am also interested in the process and the stages through which a
student passed or passes.
I have read the set of articles in the Studio Potter written by Shimaoka
students, including yours. I shall look it out again and see.
The dissertation sounds very interesting - let me know if does find a
publisher.
Thanx
D
skiasonaranthropos@FSMAIL.NET on mon 7 nov 05
Hello all,
As the discussions seems to be developing beyond Daniels' original request
about Medieval Apprenticeships I thought I chip in a little more. Whilst I
can not comment about the existence or otherwise of Potters Guilds I can
add a few notes about unions and apprenticeships in the Potteries area of
United Kingdom
The General Union of Potters was the first in the early 1830s and
campaigned, amongst other things, parliamentary reform such as the
Chartist movement and against payment in truck. The first strike occurred
in early 1835 and eventually spread to over 60 factories and 20,000
workers.
A relatively unknown offshoot to the union movement in the industry was
the Potteries Emigration Scheme which followed the failure of the first
Potters strike. The idea was that on a subscriptions were paid weekly to
build a fund to purchase land in the United States; and to quote from
http://www.thepotteries.org/focus/002.htm
=93Fearing the unemployment consequences of the introduction of machinery
into the pottery industry, the Pottery Union of the 1840's devised upon an
amazing plan to purchase land in America on which to land a colony of
unemployed potters. In May 1844, the Potters' Joint Stock Emigration
Society was formed to oversee the lottery that would deliver the poor
potters to the land of freedom and a new life away from his daily toil.
Twelve thousand acres of land in America were to be purchased and to be
divided into sections of twenty acres each, five of which were to be
cultivated and built on by the immigrants. Members of the union
contributed at a daily rate for the chance to emigrate to Pottersville -
the name of the new settlement in Wisconsin. The emigrants were chosen by
Ballot for the chance of a new life in Pottersville. The Union saw the
scheme as a golden opportunity to introduce hope into the lives of the
poor potter who's working life seemed about to be terminated by the
introduction of the machines onto the factory floor. When the first
families set sail in a barge to Liverpool on the first stage of their
journey to an uncertain future in Wisconsin, barges of cheering pottery
workers followed them on their journey from Etruria, via Longport and
Burslem. Some barges that followed the emigrants contained bands who
played suitable music for the occasion. Two years later, as the machinery
failed to produce the mass unemployment expected enthusiasm for the
project waned. =93
Further information could be found in
A History of the Potters' Union by F. Burchill and R. Ross
And perhaps by contacting:
The Potteries Museum & Art Gallery at www2002.stoke.gov.uk/museums
or the current union at www.catu.org.uk
Apprenticeships have long been a feature of the UK industry, and easily
within living memory these could be up to seven years for the most skilled
jobs. Dedicated evening classes and day releases schemes were available
for a wide range of occupations including mangers, technical staff, kiln
men and mould makers
Quoting from Patterns of Labour: Work and social change in the pottery
industry by Richard Whipp. Routledge 1990: =93Workers did not drift between
jobs or factories but generally progressed through accepted career
sequences=94 ... =93In the potting shops a lad might begin as a clay-carrier=
,
then be accepted for an apprenticeship and eventually become a journeyman
making smaller ware. As competence increased the young presser would move
up to larger, more difficult ware sizes. Eventually he could become head
presser with responsibility for the shops general operation and its
relation with the press shop and green house. Similar occupational
progressions occurred in the firing and dipping departments.
=93With experience a few workers could hope to become foreman or in the
larger works departmental manager. A prize for head placers, firemen or
very senior workers was to be put =91on the staff=92 where job tenure was mo=
re
secure=94
Apprenticeship still exists today:
www.actd.co.uk/news/news.htm#article_five
Some of the most famous names in the UK industry started as Apprentices,
and copied from various sources:
Clarice Cliff
She left school aged 13 and learned lithography and hand painting before
joining Wilkinsons in 1916 as an apprentice. After her apprenticeship
Wilkinsons sent her to the Royal College of Art. On returning in 1927 she
was put in charge of a team of paintresses and given the job of decorating
old white ware. Her solution to the task was to decorate the items with
bold geometric patterns, which Wilkinsons marketed as Bizarre Ware by
Clarice Cliff
Thomas Minton
English potter. After an apprenticeship as an engraver for transfer
printing at Caughley and working for the potter Josiah Spode, he
established himself at Stoke-on-Trent as an engraver of designs in 1789.
Josiah Spode
Began to work in the pottery industry at the age of seven and in 1749, at
the age of sixteen, he was apprenticed to Thomas Whieldon who was the
foremost potter in the area. After 5 years apprenticeship he worked in a
number of pottery factories before setting up his own company in the early
1760s.
Josiah Wedgwood
Although he was only 11 years old when he began to work at Church Yard
Works, Wedgwood was already a talented thrower. By 14 he was apprenticed
to his older brother for five years. During the period of his
apprenticeship, Wedgwoods beloved mother died. Wedgwood was 18. When he
turned 19, Wedgwood wanted to be a partner in the family business with his
brother Thomas, but his older brother refused. Perhaps it was Wedgwoods
tender age that caused his brother to refuse Wedgwoods bid for
partnership, but more likely it was Wedgwoods already unusual notions
about how potteries, including Church Yard Works, might be run.
Hope that's of interest to soem of you,
Regards,
Antony
Rick Hamelin on mon 7 nov 05
The Rise of the Staffordshire Potteries by John Thomas is a wonderful resource of information concerning the conditions of the trade.
The exodus of Staffordshire potters to both France and America resulted in Wedgwood publishing many pamphlets to hopefully change their minds.
I cannot locate my second book on this subject being a study of the land purchase in America by the group of ceramic industrialists such as Copeland and Wedgwood in an attempt to make profit by building a manufactory here in the States, I believe in Ohio or Indiana. I simply cannot locate the book. This scheme contradicts the potters themselves purchasing land.
Many potters who came to America at this time improved the technologies and knowledge but never met any any large success. Daniel Greatbach, who's family were the mold modelers for Ridgeway, was the originator of the much copied greyhound handle found on many Rockingham pitchers. He traveled from NJ to VT and ended up dying a young man, 40-50 years old, and is now buried in an unmarked grave in VT. I am certain that many potters met this fate.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
Kathy Forer on tue 8 nov 05
On Nov 7, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Daniel Semler wrote:
> I am looking for a picture of that master/student relationship in the
> trades.
Because I couldn't find Eileen Powers Medieval People and the Social
History of Art had nothing related, I had to search google. Google
Print showed Medieval People had no first hand accounts of potters
but I found many other links, some of which may already have been
mentioned.
From Compilation of Medieval Occupations and their Descriptions
http://www.geocities.com/mor_chathail/med_occupation.html
Baller (Up) Assisted the potter by measuring out the balls of clay
Bottom Knocker Sagger makers assistant in the pottery industry
Bottom Maker Moulded the bottoms for saggers in the pottery
industry
Cod Placer Put fire proof containers which held the pottery for
firing into the kiln
Dipper Who worked in the pottery trade and was responsible for
the glazing of items
Paintress Woman employed in the pottery industry to hand paint
the finished articles
Potter Maker or seller of pottery
Potter Carrier Chemist or pharmacist
Potter Thrower Potter who used a wheel and therefore had to
throw the clay
Slaper One who worked in a pottery preparing the clay for the
potter
Slapper One who worked in a pottery preparing the clay for the
potter
Here are a few links on a favorite topic of many:
Crafts and Guilds in Later Medieval Europe, a comprehensive bibliography
http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/MedGuilds2.htm
Interpreting Ceramics, Issue 6, )
Buckley Ceramics in the Seventeenth Century:
Socio-Economic Status of the Potters and Possible Design Influences
http://www.uwic.ac.uk/ICRC/issue006/articles/01.htm
(good article with bibliography and pics, includes Michael McCarthy
and Catherine Brooks, "Medieval Pottery in Britain AD 900-1600")
ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies
Medieval Trade and Industry - General Bibliography
http://www.the-orb.net/wales/mtib/mtbib.htm
The Apprenticeship Program
West Kingdom Potter's Guild
http://guild.cuinn.net/apprentice.html
(nice pic on home page)
Medieval and Renaissance Pottery and Ceramics Resources Available
http://scatoday.net/node/view/393
(tons of great links)
Snapshots from the Archaeological Resourse Centre at The Lawn, Lincoln.
http://www.optimumdesign.co.uk/projects/arc.html
(nice early photo -- Brownie camera? -- of Medieval potter ;)
Art and Archaeology in Lincolnshire
http://www.thecollection.lincoln.museum/
York Archaeological Trust
http://www.jorvik-viking-centre.co.uk/trialsplash2.htm
A G Vince 1984 The Medieval Ceramic Industry of the Severn Valley
http://www.postex.demon.co.uk/thesis/thesis.htm
(complete unpublished thesis. no pics)
Experiments in Early Medieval Pottery
http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/Articles/Pottery.htm
Apprentices of Great Britain 1710-1774 (a bit late in time), used by
genealogists
might be useful. Though "Potter" isn't among the listed abbreviations.
Masons and Sculptors by Nicola Coldstream
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/book-citations/0802069169
(part of Medieval Craftsmen series. Also see English Tilers by
Elizabeth Eames)
Craft Guilds and Christianity in Late-Medieval England: A Rational-
Choice Analysis, Author Gary Richardson
christianity_and_craft_guilds_formatted_for_Rationality_and_Society_22ju
ne2003.doc>
(long MS Word document,
Medieval Reader by Norman F. Cantor might have something but no
searching available.
Searching for Medieval Guilds turns up a lot in Google Print:
+apprentice&btnG=Search>
--
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
--
Emily Dickinson -- Death
Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.
We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labor, and my leisure too,
For his civility.
We passed the school, where children strove
At recess, in the ring;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.
Or rather, be passed us;
The dews grew quivering and chill,
For only gossamer my gown,
My tippet only tulle.
We paused before house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible,
The cornice but a mound.
Since then 'tis centuries, and yet each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/english/melani/cs6/stop.html
Wood Jeanne on tue 8 nov 05
Hi Daniel,
I know what you mean by wanting to look earlier. I
hope you will share the information if you find more.
There are several paragraphs on German stoneware
"workshop" practices in the book "Pottery in the
Making: Ceramic Traditions" Edited by Ian Freestone
and David Gaimster. The article refers to 16th-17th
Centuries, but claims the practices were also used
from medieval times. There are end notes with
refrences, but I would have to find a magnifying glass
to read them, tiny, tiny font.
I thought it was an interesting read: apprenticeships
were organized around family units with the ceramic
production centers consisting of competing families.
They kept their production secret, wouldn't hire
foreign potters for fear of pottery secrets leaking
out. If the master fell ill or died his spouse could
take over the pottery, but only until she remarried.
etc.
Good luck with your 11th century research. Pottery
shapes began to make some big changes about that time
or a little later because food & cooking & residential
life was changing then too.
-Jeanne W.
--- Daniel Semler wrote:
> Thanx for this Jeanne. It is important. The tax
> thing is interesting. Having
> said that, I have to start somewhere and perhaps the
> nature of the
> apprenticeship is not so different but then I won't
> know until I read
> accounts.
> I've got to get out the 19th century and the
> 15th/16th is not a bad
> jump. Now if
> I can just get to the 11th :)
>
> Thanx
> D
>
__________________________________
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Carole Fox on tue 8 nov 05
Daniel - this site has information on publications and research related to
medieval pottery:
http://www.medievalpottery.org.uk/nlcurr.htm
Within, it also provides access to a large bibliography on the topic.
Happy Hunting!
Carole Fox
Dayton, OH
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