Claudia I Franco on tue 8 nov 05
I have seen out and about well named stores selling dinnerware with crazed
glaze on the inside of bowls and mugs. Does any one have any reaction to
this and does any one know how they can get away with it!? Since crazed
glaze traps bacteria?? Is there something that I am missing? Please let
me know.
Claudia
Paul Lewing on wed 9 nov 05
on 11/8/05 8:10 PM, Claudia I Franco at claudiaivonnefranco@YAHOO.COM wrote:
> Does any one have any reaction to
> this and does any one know how they can get away with it!?
They get away with it because there's no authority that says you have to use
good craftsmanship, and most people don't know the difference, or care.
Since crazed glaze traps bacteria??
Oh, really? Can you prove that? I've heard this argument for years, but
I'm not sure it's true, or if it matters. And I sure don't see why anyone
would worry about it.
Do you really think those germs survive the dishwasher, or the microwave?
Sure we know that there are bacteria that can live in the depths of the
ocean and in thermal vents, but those are not the bacteria commonly found in
kitchens.
Or think about this: You have no compunction about serving a hamburger and a
salad on a plate, crazed glaze or no. How many people have you heard of
who've died from eating hamburger? How many people have you heard of who've
died from eating salad? Would you sterilize that salad? How? Which is
more likely to harbor germs, the plate or the food?
I know, people are going to say "Liability, Liability, LIABILITY! You could
get SUED!" Nonsense. I defy you to find an ambulance-chasing lawyer who
thinks he could make a case that anyone has ever been harmed by germs
lurking in the crazes in glaze. How could anyone ever prove that the only
place those particular germs could have come from was in the glaze. How are
you even going to know they're in there?
Sorry for the rant, Claudia, it's not directed at you. It's directed at
poor risk assessment skills.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
earlk on wed 9 nov 05
Would I NOT buy dinnerware just because it was crazed? No.
As long as I can remember I have always chewed on my
fingernails. Just something I can't help doing. I'm sure
I've ingested more bacteria from that than I ever would
from crazed dinnerware.
There may be reasons to avoid crazed ware, such as strength,
but if the crazing is part of the aesthetics of the piece I don't
think it should automatically be rejected just because it is
crazed.
earlk...
bothell, wa, usa
who some may think crazed because of these attitudes.
steve graber on wed 9 nov 05
also add pin holes to the list.....
it's sad, but also shows a good deal of "any old ware" coming thru. quality not required? sad...
see ya
steve
Claudia I Franco wrote:
I have seen out and about well named stores selling dinnerware with crazed
glaze on the inside of bowls and mugs. Does any one have any reaction to
this and does any one know how they can get away with it!? Since crazed
glaze traps bacteria?? Is there something that I am missing? Please let
me know.
Claudia
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Vince Pitelka on wed 9 nov 05
>I have seen out and about well named stores selling dinnerware with crazed
> glaze on the inside of bowls and mugs. Does any one have any reaction to
> this and does any one know how they can get away with it!? Since crazed
> glaze traps bacteria?? Is there something that I am missing?
Dear Claudia -
This is a very common misconception, and it is important to try to correct
it. Crazed glazes do not trap bacteria, and this is not a hygene issue.
For the last few millenia people have been eating off crazed dinnerware,
both highfire and earthenware, with no record of anyone being sickened by
bacteria trapped in the crazing. Crazing weakens the piece, especially in
highfire wares, and therefore is considered a flaw in the commercial china
industry. But then again, in some cases they use "crackle glazes" (glazes
designed to craze) on purpose for effect, since antique pottery (especially
earthenware) is often crazed, and thus many people associate crazing with a
patina of long use and great age in ceramics.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Taylor from Rockport on thu 10 nov 05
Here is something to think about. How large does a crack in a glaze have
to be to be seen wih the unaided eye? I'm not talking about length of
crack but rather the distance between the sides of the crack. I'm not
certain, but the necessessary amount of seperation needed to refract light
enough for us to see would be very very very small indeed. A quick look to
see the average size of bacterium came up with quite a rance (0.2 =B5m and 2=
0
=B5m). Time for the braniacs on the list to let us know then if bacteria
could even slip into the cracks in the first place. My head hurts and
yesterday's throwing session sucked, so I ain't going to dig up any old
optics textbook to figure it out even if I had one.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:30:29 -0800, Paul Lewing
wrote:
...
>Since crazed glaze traps bacteria??
>Oh, really? Can you prove that? I've heard this argument for years, but
>I'm not sure it's true, or if it matters. And I sure don't see why anyone
>would worry about it.
...
Lolli Cook on thu 10 nov 05
http://www.fabiennelhostis.com/pottery/raku-tableware/table-ware-pottery.htm
This potter in france sells raku dinnerware, I asked about this and they
replied that the amount of carbon you will eat from a bbq dinner is more
than you will get off of the dinnerware. Which makes sense to me but I see
a structural problem with using such non vitrified-less strong dinerware. It
wouldn't last too long around my house!!
Laura Lea "Lollipots" Cook
www.lollipots.ca
style='FONT-SIZE:11px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,sans-serif'>
size=1>
From: Vince Pitelka <vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET>
Reply-To:
Clayart <CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG>
To:
CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Commercially sold crazed
dinner ware!
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:34:54 -0600
>I
have seen out and about well named stores selling dinnerware with
>crazed
>glaze on the inside of bowls and mugs. Does any one
have any
>reaction to
>this and does any one know how they can
get away with it!? Since
>crazed
>glaze traps bacteria?? Is
there something that I am missing?
Dear Claudia -
This is a very
common misconception, and it is important to try to correct
it. Crazed
glazes do not trap bacteria, and this is not a hygene issue.
For the last
few millenia people have been eating off crazed dinnerware,
both highfire
and earthenware, with no record of anyone being sickened by
bacteria
trapped in the crazing. Crazing weakens the piece, especially
in
highfire wares, and therefore is considered a flaw in the commercial
china
industry. But then again, in some cases they use "crackle
glazes" (glazes
designed to craze) on purpose for effect, since
antique pottery (especially
earthenware) is often crazed, and thus many
people associate crazing with a
patina of long use and great age in
ceramics.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian
Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166,
615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net,
wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
______________________________________________________________________________
Send
postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for
the list or change your subscription
settings from
http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel
Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Kathi LeSueur on thu 10 nov 05
Thanks to Vince for his thoughtful and informative post. I've always
thought this idea of crazed dinnerware being dangerous as an urban
legend. I have my mother's dinnerware that was purchased in the 40's.
Almost every piece has some crazing. That would never stop me from using
it. Everytime I do, I remember here and the holiday dinners we had on it.
Kathi
Bic Wood on fri 11 nov 05
There are a number of claims in this thread about crazing glazes not being
a problem and there being no known cases of disease, lawsuit, or other evil
events caused by crazing. However, the statements appear to be opinions
with no stated backup. Does anyone know of any published research on this
issue (either scientific or legal case research) that might provide an
answer?
Bic
Ron Roy on mon 14 nov 05
Not to mention all that sucked up fat etc, - I wonder if it "smells" after
a while?
Good grief?
RR
>http://www.fabiennelhostis.com/pottery/raku-tableware/table-ware-pottery.htm
>
>This potter in france sells raku dinnerware, I asked about this and they
>replied that the amount of carbon you will eat from a bbq dinner is more
>than you will get off of the dinnerware. Which makes sense to me but I see
>a structural problem with using such non vitrified-less strong dinerware. It
>wouldn't last too long around my house!!
>
>Laura Lea "Lollipots" Cook
>
>www.lollipots.ca
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Ron Roy on mon 14 nov 05
Hi Taylor,
Size of cracks will vary.
Primary crazing cracks will be wider than secondary crazing cracks - as the
secondary crazing happens - tension is relieved and the first cracks close
up a bit.
I do know - that if you serve fish on a crazed plate it will smell of fish
for day and even weeks after that.
RR
>Here is something to think about. How large does a crack in a glaze have
>to be to be seen wih the unaided eye? I'm not talking about length of
>crack but rather the distance between the sides of the crack. I'm not
>certain, but the necessessary amount of seperation needed to refract light
>enough for us to see would be very very very small indeed. A quick look to
>see the average size of bacterium came up with quite a rance (0.2 =B5m and =
20
>=B5m). Time for the braniacs on the list to let us know then if bacteria
>could even slip into the cracks in the first place. My head hurts and
>yesterday's throwing session sucked, so I ain't going to dig up any old
>optics textbook to figure it out even if I had one.
>
>Taylor, in Rockport TX
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
=46ax: 613-475-3513=20
Louis Katz on mon 14 nov 05
Some crazed earthenware we have at home does in fact smell as it comes
from the hot dishwasher. Rancid sort of smell. We don't use it in the
microwave. Gets too hot to handle.
louis
http://louiskatz.net
Vince Pitelka on mon 14 nov 05
> There are a number of claims in this thread about crazing glazes not being
> a problem and there being no known cases of disease, lawsuit, or other
> evil
> events caused by crazing. However, the statements appear to be opinions
> with no stated backup. Does anyone know of any published research on this
> issue (either scientific or legal case research) that might provide an
> answer?
Bic -
This is not a matter of "a number of claims." It has been tossed around for
decades, and to my knowledge no one has yet come up with any evidence
proving that crazing harbors harmful bacteria. If they had, you can be
certain that we would know about it. However, I encourage you to search for
published research that proves to the contrary. If you find it, we'd love
to know about it. Until then, it seems evident that crazing is "innocent
until proven guilty."
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Paul Gerhold on tue 15 nov 05
This whole discussion is really boring. If anyone really cares take swab
samples , inocculate a petri dish with a medium, run a control and answer the
issue once and for all!
Then we can solve the really important issues like is a deliberate flaw
really a flaw? Lets move on to really meaningful topics like why doesn't pottery
get the respect it deserves in the craft/art world.
Paul- who is fascinated with crackle, and crater glazes among others!
Vince Pitelka on tue 15 nov 05
> This whole discussion is really boring. If anyone really cares take swab
> samples , inocculate a petri dish with a medium, run a control and answer
> the
> issue once and for all!
Paul -
Sorry this issue doesn't fascinate you, but as Mel says, the delete key is
your friend, so go ahead and delete. Unfortunately, your experiment above
wouldn't prove a thing. As I mentioned in several previous posts, there is
no evidence that anyone has been able to find to indicate that anyone has
ever been sickened or poisoned by eating off of crazed earthenware. So we
already have our proof until someone comes up with positive scientific proof
to the contrary.
> Then we can solve the really important issues like is a deliberate flaw
> really a flaw?
Hey, we've solved that one too. Crazing is always a structural flaw on
midrange and highfire wares. It's unavoidable on earthenware, and therefore
is just part of the reason that earthenware is far less durable.
On stoneware and porcelain, cross section magnification shows that the craze
cracks do extend through the glaze layer and ever-so-slightly into the
clay-glaze interface. Thus they provide paths for breakage, just like the
score marks on glass made with a glass-cutter.
> Lets move on to really meaningful topics like why doesn't pottery
> get the respect it deserves in the craft/art world.
What makes you think that pottery doesn't get the respect it deserves in the
craft world? And be careful of generalizations, because in some parts of
the world pottery definitely gets the respect it deserves in the fine art
world as well. Regarding the respect it gets in the Western art world,
that's a subject for another discussion. It is something I have researched
fairly extensively, and can no doubt write more than you'd want to read.
But I am happy to discuss it at any time.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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