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pottery and calligraphy

updated sat 19 nov 05

 

Malcolm Schosha on thu 17 nov 05


I had intended to post no more to the ClayArt forum, but it seems that a few more words of explanation would leave things in a slightly more complete state.

This morning I was comparing in my mind the practice of calligraphy in the US as compared to pottery here. As I have made clear, in my view pottery in the United Stated has developed in a completely wrong direction, and the inclusion of pottery as a subject in colleges and universities has contributed to what is wrong in pottery making today.

On the other hand, calligraphy has not been included in the universities to any significant extent. Most calligraphers have learned through the calligraphy 'guilds' that have been organized by the calligraphers themselves. The result is, I think, a much better standard of quality in modern calligraphy than in modern pottery.

When I injured my back and and wrists too much to continue with throwing, I learned calligraphy by taking numerous workshops with the Society if Scribes in New York City. It was enough to help me get jobs at a couple of NYC calligraphy studios for more experience, and to continue later as a freelancer. There are other such calligraphy groups similar to the Society of Scribes (not at all guilds in the traditional sense of the word); and I suspect that if pottery instruction had developed in a similar way, instead of going into the universities, the standards of pottery making would now be far higher than they are.

I realize that this message is really just an outline of an idea, but I think I will leave it in this short form. It gives something of a general idea of the thought; and I have annoyed the members of ClayArt too much already with my unsolicited negative evaluation of pottery making in the US today.

Be well.

Malcolm Schosha



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Lee Love on thu 17 nov 05


On 2005/11/17 21:29:03, malcolm_schosha@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> This morning I was comparing in my mind the practice of calligraphy
in the
> US as compared to pottery here. As I have made clear, in my view pottery
> in the United Stated has developed in a completely wrong direction,
and the
> inclusion of pottery as a subject in colleges and universities has
> contributed to what is wrong in pottery making today.

Malcolm,

It sounds like your calligraphy experience has been
positive in America, whereas your pottery experiences have not been so
good. But I think you need to look at it all in perspective.

Calligraphy, maybe even more so than pottery, is held in
high esteem here in Japan. Much higher than Western calligraphy in the
USofA. For example, at the end of the year, a Kanji character is
chosen to represent the year. You always see on T.V., usually some
high ranking abbot, paint the chosen Kanji for the year. Can you
imagine an end of the year calligraphy performance on national
television in America?

I am guessing you are more likely to be able to find a University
calligraphy course in your average University here in Japan than you
will find a pottery program. On the other hand, every community
center also has calligraphy classes and clubs. In fact, tomorrow
Jean and I go to the Mashiko community center to hang our woodblock
prints with the woodblock printing club we belong to. (you can see a
scan of my humble print here: http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ ) For
the Mashiko Cultural Festival.

There will only be about 8 of us showing woodblock
prints, but there will be hundreds of works of calligraphy being
shown, from the work of elementary school students to senior citizens.

University studies in any area only enhances our
understanding of it. In my opinion, ceramics studio arts programs in
America are one of our strengths.

Actually, while I believe they are much stronger
here in Japan in the area of craftsmanship, apprenticeship, and
technical knowledge, I think the areas we are better at in America are
the studio arts programs, the workshop system (which is non-existent
here) and also in the area of cooperatives and Clay Centers that provide
studio space for many potters and artists under one roof.

If there was anything I would wish for, for the young
apprentices that I studied with during my 3 year apprenticeship, it
would be that they spend a year in a university studio arts program,
like at the UofMN, and a year as a resident at a place like Northern
Clay Center. The apprentices here can work circles around most
potters back home from the perspective of craftsmanship (they put me to
shame), but I think from a creative perspective, we have the edge.

Ideally, a combination of apprenticeship, workshops, and
university study, is the most well rounded way to learn how to be a
studio artist. All of these methods have their strengths and they
compliment each other.

One of the most important aspects I can see in a
humanistic approach to University studies, it that it can help us get
over narrow-minded, provincial perspectives. I know, the university
has its own pitfalls, like over intellectualizing, But if you have a
mix of learning experiences, they can balance you out. It is more
difficult to develop a global, cosmopolitan view, in a little pottery
village.

--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."

--Leonardo da Vinci

steve graber on thu 17 nov 05


wow!

so, rather then increase the topics available in schools you want to decrease them further & further?

or only teach one style?

while this site-list focuses on studeo art & individuals, the topic of ceramics & ceramics engineering come from the same or similar group of classes. (i never went there, but cal state long beach provides a ceramic engineering degree - or did a few years back).

pick any disipline, and a college will slant in one direction. law schools, business schools, engineering, chemistry, etc all have their slant based on the set of teachers they employ. but collectively there's a ton of oportunities!

or maybe i'm not seeing the breadth of calligraphy?

see ya

steve




Malcolm Schosha wrote: I had intended to post no more to the ClayArt forum, but it seems that a few more words of explanation would leave things in a slightly more complete state.

This morning I was comparing in my mind the practice of calligraphy in the US as compared to pottery here. As I have made clear, in my view pottery in the United Stated has developed in a completely wrong direction, and the inclusion of pottery as a subject in colleges and universities has contributed to what is wrong in pottery making today.

On the other hand, calligraphy has not been included in the universities to any significant extent. Most calligraphers have learned through the calligraphy 'guilds' that have been organized by the calligraphers themselves. The result is, I think, a much better standard of quality in modern calligraphy than in modern pottery.

When I injured my back and and wrists too much to continue with throwing, I learned calligraphy by taking numerous workshops with the Society if Scribes in New York City. It was enough to help me get jobs at a couple of NYC calligraphy studios for more experience, and to continue later as a freelancer. There are other such calligraphy groups similar to the Society of Scribes (not at all guilds in the traditional sense of the word); and I suspect that if pottery instruction had developed in a similar way, instead of going into the universities, the standards of pottery making would now be far higher than they are.

I realize that this message is really just an outline of an idea, but I think I will leave it in this short form. It gives something of a general idea of the thought; and I have annoyed the members of ClayArt too much already with my unsolicited negative evaluation of pottery making in the US today.

Be well.

Malcolm Schosha



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claybair on thu 17 nov 05


I cannot attest to calligraphy in colleges and universities today
but my exposure to it was in college in 1966.
It was an excellent class. I didn't belong to any Guilds.
I was able to tap into the skill later on in the 80s when my daughter was
a baby. I had a business writing and illustrating personalized poems on
parchment. Boy, that brings back the old days!

Gayle Bair - here's where some of you will think I'm nutz.... but while in
an intense mode working on a piece I had a vivid recollection, view
(whatever you want to call it) of myself in a monks robe leaning over a
piece I was working on quill in hand. The room was cold, the seat & wooden
table was high off the floor, feet resting on a wooden foot rest which was
just a plank running between the legs of the table. It had cut stone walls
absolutely no decorations and a small window the source of lighting. The
connection was the ache in my back after sitting in that position for a long
period..... Ok you can take me away now. Anyway... I have a feeling I've
been in the arts a verrry long time.
Bainbridge Island, WA
Tucson, AZ
http://claybair.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Malcolm Schosha


I had intended to post no more to the ClayArt forum, but it seems that a few
more words of explanation would leave things in a slightly more complete
state.

This morning I was comparing in my mind the practice of calligraphy in the
US as compared to pottery here. As I have made clear, in my view pottery in
the United Stated has developed in a completely wrong direction, and the
inclusion of pottery as a subject in colleges and universities has
contributed to what is wrong in pottery making today.

On the other hand, calligraphy has not been included in the universities
to any significant extent. Most calligraphers have learned through the
calligraphy 'guilds' that have been organized by the calligraphers
themselves. The result is, I think, a much better standard of quality in
modern calligraphy than in modern pottery.

When I injured my back and and wrists too much to continue with throwing,
I learned calligraphy by taking numerous workshops with the Society if
Scribes in New York City. It was enough to help me get jobs at a couple of
NYC calligraphy studios for more experience, and to continue later as a
freelancer. There are other such calligraphy groups similar to the Society
of Scribes (not at all guilds in the traditional sense of the word); and I
suspect that if pottery instruction had developed in a similar way, instead
of going into the universities, the standards of pottery making would now be
far higher than they are.

I realize that this message is really just an outline of an idea, but I
think I will leave it in this short form. It gives something of a general
idea of the thought; and I have annoyed the members of ClayArt too much
already with my unsolicited negative evaluation of pottery making in the US
today.

Be well.

Malcolm Schosha
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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Malcolm Schosha on thu 17 nov 05


This message proves how difficult it is to stop what is once begun.



steve graber wrote:

>wow!

>so, rather then increase the topics available in schools you want to decrease them further & further?

>or only teach one style?

..................................

Wow, Steve!

You really do not seem to get it. What I would like to see in pottery is more competence, and less crap passed off as 'art'.

The calligraphy I see being done now in the United States proves that the artists and craftspeople of this country really are capable of good work. So, if calligraphers can do good work, why all the BS in pottery?

If competent pottery training can happen in the context of college and university education, that would be just great with me. However, what I see actually happening in colleges does not give me much encouragement to expect that to ever happen.

Some members of this list seem to think I am an enemy of education. Nothing could be further from the truth. All the best calligraphers (and best potters) I know have good educations. Some, like Alice Koeth, have studied at professional art schools (Brooklyn Museum School, in her case). I know some very good calligraphers who graduated from Cooper Union. Marcy Robinson, an excellent NYC calligrapher, has a degree in chemistry, and learned calligraphy in Society of Scribes workshops. I, personally, do not know anyone with a masters degree in calligraphy. When I was working at Ames and Rollinson (a very old calligraphy studio in NYC), someone looking for work called and said she had a PhD in calligraphy; which the art director thought was pretty funny. He did not ask her to come in for a job interview.

In an case, it is not the degrees, or lack of degrees, that make an education. I always liked Einstein's definition the best: "education is whats left after you have forgotten what you learned in school."

Malcolm Schosha




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steve graber on thu 17 nov 05


malcolm, i guess then i disagree with your comment of: "What I would like to see in pottery is more competence, and less crap passed off as 'art'."

i see stuff i do like, i see stuff i don't like, but i don't figure that because i "see it", it's being passed off as "art". .

when i see something i don't care for, i tell myself "at least they're out there doing what they want. and while i might not care for it, what i am actually envious of is their *nack* (better then me) of getting published or in font of the public with their work.

i browse the internet and have collected a TON of beautiful images that i like & respect as art. i wall papered my workshop ceiling with these images for inspiration. .

i'll link you off line with some images.

see ya

steve



Malcolm Schosha wrote:
This message proves how difficult it is to stop what is once begun.



steve graber wrote:

>wow!

>so, rather then increase the topics available in schools you want to decrease them further & further?

>or only teach one style?

..................................

Wow, Steve!

You really do not seem to get it. What I would like to see in pottery is more competence, and less crap passed off as 'art'.

The calligraphy I see being done now in the United States proves that the artists and craftspeople of this country really are capable of good work. So, if calligraphers can do good work, why all the BS in pottery?

If competent pottery training can happen in the context of college and university education, that would be just great with me. However, what I see actually happening in colleges does not give me much encouragement to expect that to ever happen.

Some members of this list seem to think I am an enemy of education. Nothing could be further from the truth. All the best calligraphers (and best potters) I know have good educations. Some, like Alice Koeth, have studied at professional art schools (Brooklyn Museum School, in her case). I know some very good calligraphers who graduated from Cooper Union. Marcy Robinson, an excellent NYC calligrapher, has a degree in chemistry, and learned calligraphy in Society of Scribes workshops. I, personally, do not know anyone with a masters degree in calligraphy. When I was working at Ames and Rollinson (a very old calligraphy studio in NYC), someone looking for work called and said she had a PhD in calligraphy; which the art director thought was pretty funny. He did not ask her to come in for a job interview.

In an case, it is not the degrees, or lack of degrees, that make an education. I always liked Einstein's definition the best: "education is whats left after you have forgotten what you learned in school."

Malcolm Schosha




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Malcolm Schosha on fri 18 nov 05


Steve,

My message was not an attack on your work, which I have not seen.

I do not consider my preferences the best or highest; they are just my preferences and the way I see things based on my understanding. I tend to be blunt, which is not always a good thing, but sometimes nothing else gets anyone's attention. I do not know any potter (or any human at all) who could not do better in the future than they are doing now. We can always do better. Its something to hope for.

In any case, if someone makes bad pottery, it is not all that terrible. Its not a crime. I never met a potter who was trying to make bad pots, the intention is always good.

Be well.

Malcolm Schosha

........................................................

steve graber wrote: malcolm, i guess then i disagree with your comment of: "What I would like to see in pottery is more competence, and less crap passed off as 'art'."

i see stuff i do like, i see stuff i don't like, but i don't figure that because i "see it", it's being passed off as "art". .

when i see something i don't care for, i tell myself "at least they're out there doing what they want. and while i might not care for it, what i am actually envious of is their *nack* (better then me) of getting published or in font of the public with their work.

i browse the internet and have collected a TON of beautiful images that i like & respect as art. i wall papered my workshop ceiling with these images for inspiration. .

i'll link you off line with some images.

see ya

steve

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steve graber on fri 18 nov 05


malcolm: i didn't hear any attacks on my work - don't worry about it. i recognize my limits pretty well. i'm an old gymnast - used to score 9's. i look at my pots as being maybe in the 5's or 6's.

check out my link. i set a site up in yahoo, mainly to post pottery pictures that i like. at the site, there is a photo's tab where i have several sets of photos stored. i collected these pics over time, and have them on my workshop ceiling. american indian, greek, my work, and general work i like the looks of.

http://360.yahoo.com/stevegraber

while i understand some of what you're saying - A LOT of CRAP seems to exist - i still have to believe that an overwelming majority of much better work is out there. a good friend of mine (i gotta find her link) for instance does beautiful work but is poor at self promotion & such. ~ so one never meets her work unless you're a buyer in the north carolina area.

possibly the *crap* we see is truly bad work but the *artist* is able to spend more time on getting published & self marketing. it's a case of not being good enough to do what one was expected to do, but is pretty good at talking about it...

i'm close to dropping ceramics monthly for this reason. after i located all these shots & more, i felt that THESE are what i want to suround myself with. the photos in ceramics monthly -- to me -- mostly suck. BUT i don't think that mag really reflects the total quality of work going on in the country - just those that are good at promoting their work.

talk more later!

see ya

steve

Malcolm Schosha wrote:
Steve,

My message was not an attack on your work, which I have not seen.

I do not consider my preferences the best or highest; they are just my preferences and the way I see things based on my understanding. I tend to be blunt, which is not always a good thing, but sometimes nothing else gets anyone's attention. I do not know any potter (or any human at all) who could not do better in the future than they are doing now. We can always do better. Its something to hope for.

In any case, if someone makes bad pottery, it is not all that terrible. Its not a crime. I never met a potter who was trying to make bad pots, the intention is always good.

Be well.

Malcolm Schosha

........................................................

steve graber wrote: malcolm, i guess then i disagree with your comment of: "What I would like to see in pottery is more competence, and less crap passed off as 'art'."

i see stuff i do like, i see stuff i don't like, but i don't figure that because i "see it", it's being passed off as "art". .

when i see something i don't care for, i tell myself "at least they're out there doing what they want. and while i might not care for it, what i am actually envious of is their *nack* (better then me) of getting published or in font of the public with their work.

i browse the internet and have collected a TON of beautiful images that i like & respect as art. i wall papered my workshop ceiling with these images for inspiration. .

i'll link you off line with some images.

see ya

steve

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.




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