F. Chapman Baudelot on sat 19 nov 05
Philip Tuley wrote:
First, in many
societies throughout history, clay has been used to cook in.
In Morocco they use a tagine over low flames, so I wonder at what they
are
doing differently than we are.
Second, ignoring the issue of permeability for a moment, from what I've
been
reading of pitfiring, pots that are fired high enough to really vitrify
do
not withstand the thermal shocks involved. So, why are we insisting
that
flameware be high-fired, other than the obvious concern for=20
eventual
breakdown of the container.
I remember this thread coming up not so many years ago, so I
am probably repeating myself.
As far as I know, flameware for stove-top cooking is still common in most
Mediterranean countries, not just Morocco.
Here in Spain one can buy a large assortment of lidded stewpots and
round, rectangular or oval dishes in any large supermarket or other
stores where pots and pans are sold. They are all made from red
earthenware clay low-fired (highfire stoneware is definitely out except
for some ovenware) to around 1000C=BA and are usually glazed on the inside
and the top few inches of the outside. Just about every kitchen has
two or three and they are used all the time on the naked flames of
gas-burning stoves. They do NOT explode. They may
eventually gently crack from rim to rim, but may still be used without
danger to finish whatever is being cooked. In fact, just last week
I was watching a TV cook show where the chef was making an elaborate stew
on top of one of those modern electric vitro-ceramic ranges and half way
through he pointed out a small crack which had appeared on the rim of the
low-walled, round flameware dish. Explaining that this was not unusual,
he continued to use it for the next fifteen minutes until the contents
were fully cooked.
This particular chef (Juan Andres) lives in Washington DC if I'm not
mistaken, where he runs 3 restaurants, just coming home to Spain for a
few days each month to record his TV show. I suppose he has a good
supply of Spanish flameware stashed away in his American
kitchens!
I, too, made a few flameware pots about 3 years ago, using an
unreasonably expensive commercially prepared body and I still use them
today, as well as two larger ones I bought at the supermarket. They
are all still intact. Replacement is easy. The ones in the
supermarkets are 'dirt' cheap!
On a different subject, not long ago someone was asking for a sealant to
waterproof terra cotta water jars. Personally, I would never
recommend such a thing since the whole idea of a terra cotta water jar or
'botijo' is that the semi-porous earthenware must sweat in order to keep
the water cool. Otherwise the whole reason for its existence is
lost.
To the British person from Hong Kong who wants to study ceramics in
Spain, Spain is not what it used to be and neither is pottery.
However, as others have suggested Barcelona and Manises are probably the
best places to try.
Vince, yes I am still lurking, Thanks.
Francoise in Spain
Claudia MacPhee on sat 19 nov 05
Hi All, For two years all we had to cook on was charcoal-the only pots were red earthenware. No one had anything else where we were living. We boiled things in the open upright shaped pots and fried in the open shaped ones. None exploded nor cracked. They were glazed on the inside and about an inch or two on the outside. I also used these pots when we had wood to cook on. They gave good service to us then and I suppose for thousands of years before to the people who lived there.
Beware? Beware of complex (and expensive) solutions to simple questions.
Claudia MacPhee, in the Southern Yukon where it is raining on our snow and spoiling the skiing...ugh
2ley on sat 19 nov 05
From: "Claudia MacPhee"
> Beware? Beware of complex (and expensive) solutions to simple questions.
My wife, who is a history maven and senior at UC Davis, listened to me
exclaim about the responses I've been given regarding the low-fire clay.
She then calmly pointed out that sometimes we forget all the history of a
subject in our rush to "get it right". She then started to give me a
dissertation about clay pots and bog finds, but I ran out of the room at
that point.
If I'd stayed she'd have gone on for another hour. Actually, I think she
did, she just didn't notice I'd left.
Philip Tuley
Wood Jeanne on sun 20 nov 05
Hi Nathan,
--- "nsmheralds@netzero.net"
wrote:
snip:
I tried
> using an ovenware body from which I made a couple of
> casseroles and a couple of pipkin. It failed
miserably over an open flame.
What happened, do you mean it broke in the flames?
Split? Blew up? Burnt the food?
I've been making pipkins and a few other shapes with a
mid-range clay & glaze and using them to cook over
direct heat for several years now.
The body is quite pourous, slightly underfired and
with plenty of extra temper added.
I trust a good washing with bleach in the rinse water
to keep them reasonably clean & don't use them in
microwaves.
Jeanne W.
> Another potter I know, also a member of the
> aforementioned group, throws her forms in a midrange
> stoneware, glazes with a commercial glaze and fires
> at cone 6 electric. She then cooks her food in a
> standard metal container and transfers it to the
> pot. She places the pot over a dish filled with
> Sterno-bearing artificial charcoal briquettes to
> keep the whole thing warm. The result is an
> arrangement that gives the appearance of food
> actually being cooked in the pot. For her, it seems
> that function follows form. For me, form would
> probably follow function. I suppose I've said all
> that to say this: there are those of us pursuing
> the use of flameware for reasons more legitimate
> than just because we can.
>
> Nathan Miller
> Thistillium Pottery
> Newberg, OR
>
>
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2ley on sun 20 nov 05
From: "nsmheralds@netzero.net"
I'd be very interested in that dissertation, believe it or not. I'm a
member of a medieval re-creation group and research on Medeiveal European
pottery can be quite frustrating. Material tends to be on work more recent
than the 1600s and/or on work done in parts of Europe I'm NOT trying to
research and/or it is difficult to acquire and/or out of print.
And so, by what name are you known in the Society?
Sincerely,
Boyar Aleksandr Ivanovich Budishchev
alphabet soup left off.
2ley on sun 20 nov 05
First, let me apologize to the entire list, I'd meant to send that reply to
Nathan alone.
That said, if you can use a low-fire earthenware body with a glaze that is
properly matched in order to closely resemble what you'd like to imitate,
fine. I'd suggest making sure that your glaze was non-permeable, and not
worry about the porosity of the pot. But if you're truly trying to recreate
the Middle Ages, use unglazed pots. You need to season them first,
depending upon the method of cooking (OK, I did some more research this past
weekend, much to the distraction of my work on the studio).
A good stew, cooked in a proper pot, is a wonderful thing. If you have fear
about bacteria, after you have washed it out (I wouldn't suggest using soap,
it'll be in the flavor for a long time if you do) fill the pot with water
and bring the water to a boil. You can do that over a fire or in an oven.
And you might want to re-examine the Society's archives, especially anything
in Stefan's Florilegium. The link, if the one in front of this sentence
fails, should be http://www.florilegium.org/ . Mark Harris, who keeps the
list, is a good friend and a better chronicler.
Philip Tuley
From: "nsmheralds@netzero.net"
With regard to Moroccan earthenware, this was pretty much what they did in
Medieval western Europe. Low-fired earthenware was used either raw or
glazed with lead. I won't touch lead with a 10-meter pole (yes, I'm aware
of methods I can employ to reduce exposure, but for various reasons I choose
to avoid it entirely). I also want to avoid the porosity issues associated
with not-too-horribly-vitrified clay--bacteria and such (although I suppose
that the next batch of stew would get the pot hot enough to kill any germs
left over from the previous batch). That being said, for me the point of
using a flameware body would give me a fully vitrified clay and an
impermeable non-lead-based glaze. I tried using an ovenware body from which
I made a couple of casseroles and a couple of pipkins (more or less the
Medieval European predecessor to the saucepan--sort of looks like a fondue
pot for those of you unfamiliar with it). It worked wonderfully as a
casserole for baking stuff in ye standard electric oven. It failed
miserably over an open flame. Another potter I know, also a member of the
aforementioned group, throws her forms in a midrange stoneware, glazes with
a commercial glaze and fires at cone 6 electric. She then cooks her food in
a standard metal container and transfers it to the pot. She places the pot
over a dish filled with Sterno-bearing artificial charcoal briquettes to
keep the whole thing warm. The result is an arrangement that gives the
appearance of food actually being cooked in the pot. For her, it seems that
function follows form. For me, form would probably follow function. I
suppose I've said all that to say this: there are those of us pursuing the
use of flameware for reasons more legitimate than just because we can.
Nathan Miller
Thistillium Pottery
Newberg, OR
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nsmheralds@netzero.net on sun 20 nov 05
>My wife, who is a history maven and senior at UC Davis, listened to me
exclaim about the responses I've been given regarding the low-fire clay.=
She then calmly pointed out that sometimes we forget all the history of =
a
subject in our rush to "get it right". She then started to give me =
a dissertation about clay pots and bog finds, but I ran out of the room =
at
that point.
I'd be very interested in that dissertation, believe it or not. I'm a m=
ember of a medieval re-creation group and research on Medeiveal European=
pottery can be quite frustrating. Material tends to be on work more re=
cent than the 1600s and/or on work done in parts of Europe I'm NOT tryin=
g to research and/or it is difficult to acquire and/or out of print.
With regard to Moroccan earthenware, this was pretty much what they did =
in Medieval western Europe. Low-fired earthenware was used either raw o=
r glazed with lead. I won't touch lead with a 10-meter pole (yes, I'm a=
ware of methods I can employ to reduce exposure, but for various reasons=
I choose to avoid it entirely). I also want to avoid the porosity issu=
es associated with not-too-horribly-vitrified clay--bacteria and such (a=
lthough I suppose that the next batch of stew would get the pot hot enou=
gh to kill any germs left over from the previous batch). That being sai=
d, for me the point of using a flameware body would give me a fully vitr=
ified clay and an impermeable non-lead-based glaze. I tried using an ov=
enware body from which I made a couple of casseroles and a couple of pip=
kins (more or less the Medieval European predecessor to the saucepan--so=
rt of looks like a fondue pot for those of you unfamiliar with it). It =
worked wonderfully as a casserole for baking stuff in ye standard electr=
ic oven. It failed miserably over an open flame. Another potter I know=
, also a member of the aforementioned group, throws her forms in a midra=
nge stoneware, glazes with a commercial glaze and fires at cone 6 electr=
ic. She then cooks her food in a standard metal container and transfers=
it to the pot. She places the pot over a dish filled with Sterno-beari=
ng artificial charcoal briquettes to keep the whole thing warm. The res=
ult is an arrangement that gives the appearance of food actually being c=
ooked in the pot. For her, it seems that function follows form. For me=
, form would probably follow function. I suppose I've said all that to =
say this: there are those of us pursuing the use of flameware for reaso=
ns more legitimate than just because we can.
=
Nathan Miller
Thistillium Pottery
Newberg, OR
=
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