mel jacobson on tue 22 nov 05
one fact that often slips past the
mind of the working artist/crafts person:
there are many people working/making a living in art,
often not related to each other.
there is the working artist.
the shop that sells art.
the people that teach art.
the people that write about art.
the people that write the history of art.
the people that display art/museums.
the people that buy art.
the people that want to know how to buy art.
often, each of these groups think that they
are in charge of art. it is not uncommon for
the group that gets left out of the equation
is the working/making, skilled artist.
folks with `very advanced` degrees often assume that
they know more than the working/making artist.
they will tell us what we are doing. they are smart.
often their writing gets placed on the walls of exhibit halls
to tell the viewing audience `what the artist thinks and has
done.` often those that write, do not have a clue what
artists think, or how the work is done. they assume knowledge.
because, they are smart. `they study art.`
then of course, the artist wants to appear smart so they
add to the writing string. `see, i am smart too.`
we often forget that art is visual/tactile. teachers want to
assist folks in understanding visual art, so they talk about it.
then of course, they appear to be smart too. far too many teachers
are trained in teaching art, not making art. that is sad.
then again, the artist is left out for what they did was visual, not
oral or written. then, what becomes most important?...the
written word...or analysis. someone will tell us what is good
or bad...perhaps someone that is trained in journalism or
museum exhibitions, not art.
our society does not leave much room for the individual to have
visual experiences. we add sound, video, oral presentation
to everything. overload.
and that brings us to training of artists. college training in art
is now mostly based on idea, not skill or training. who knows if ideas
are good or bad...? someone has to tell us, for it is no longer
visual art, it is idea art. so that leads us to artists talking to artists
not the public at large...for the public is far too dumb to understand.
even trained artists are too dumb to understand....for modern `idea
is unique and very difficult to understand` `wink, wink`, ya know what
i mean`.
so if you are a maker of visual tactile art, make sure you understand
that you are mostly alone. you have to make decisions based on
your training, your experiences and work every day do be true to
what you believe. it is rare that you will change others opinions about
your work if they do not agree with you. it is yours, and yours alone.
as for me, i want mature, experienced artists and friends to judge
my work. people that i trust will join me in growing as an artist/crafts
person.
i seek them out. i don't care what museum curators say about pots.
i don't seek journalists to critique my work. i want my customers to say...
`i just love your work mel, here is two hundred dollars for these few pieces
that i am taking home.` now that is critique that counts.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Antoinette Badenhorst on tue 22 nov 05
Well, and you know I think in the end all the intellectually trained =
people
will wonder what make a specific artist so successful.....sometimes they
know, sometimes not. I was wondering this morning who would the public =
vote
to be the most popular artist in the world to day; once upon a time it =
was
Picasso. But was he not originally criticized for using an African =
style,
which was not originally considered as good art?
Do you need sharp trimming tools that will not wear out quickly? Contact =
me
for information.=20
Antoinette Badenhorst
105 Westwood Circle
Saltillo MS, 38866
662 869 1651
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.southernartistry.org
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel =
jacobson
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:46 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: the world of art
one fact that often slips past the
mind of the working artist/crafts person:
there are many people working/making a living in art,
often not related to each other.
there is the working artist.
the shop that sells art.
the people that teach art.
the people that write about art.
the people that write the history of art.
the people that display art/museums.
the people that buy art.
the people that want to know how to buy art.
often, each of these groups think that they
are in charge of art. it is not uncommon for
the group that gets left out of the equation
is the working/making, skilled artist.
folks with `very advanced` degrees often assume that
they know more than the working/making artist.
they will tell us what we are doing. they are smart.
often their writing gets placed on the walls of exhibit halls
to tell the viewing audience `what the artist thinks and has
done.` often those that write, do not have a clue what
artists think, or how the work is done. they assume knowledge.
because, they are smart. `they study art.`
then of course, the artist wants to appear smart so they
add to the writing string. `see, i am smart too.`
we often forget that art is visual/tactile. teachers want to
assist folks in understanding visual art, so they talk about it.
then of course, they appear to be smart too. far too many teachers
are trained in teaching art, not making art. that is sad.
then again, the artist is left out for what they did was visual, not
oral or written. then, what becomes most important?...the
written word...or analysis. someone will tell us what is good
or bad...perhaps someone that is trained in journalism or
museum exhibitions, not art.
our society does not leave much room for the individual to have
visual experiences. we add sound, video, oral presentation
to everything. overload.
and that brings us to training of artists. college training in art
is now mostly based on idea, not skill or training. who knows if ideas
are good or bad...? someone has to tell us, for it is no longer
visual art, it is idea art. so that leads us to artists talking to =
artists
not the public at large...for the public is far too dumb to understand.
even trained artists are too dumb to understand....for modern `idea
is unique and very difficult to understand` `wink, wink`, ya know what
i mean`.
so if you are a maker of visual tactile art, make sure you understand
that you are mostly alone. you have to make decisions based on
your training, your experiences and work every day do be true to
what you believe. it is rare that you will change others opinions about
your work if they do not agree with you. it is yours, and yours alone.
as for me, i want mature, experienced artists and friends to judge
my work. people that i trust will join me in growing as an =
artist/crafts
person.
i seek them out. i don't care what museum curators say about pots.
i don't seek journalists to critique my work. i want my customers to =
say...
`i just love your work mel, here is two hundred dollars for these few =
pieces
that i am taking home.` now that is critique that counts.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Gordon Ward on tue 22 nov 05
The more people know (or think they know) about an artist, the more
they appreciate what went into the work. A piece does not exist in a
vacuum. If they know that the artist studied in Japan, wrote a book,
is an excellent teacher, has shown work in prestigious places, and is
just a damn fine human being, they place value there. They will show
that appreciation in paying more. They are buying a little piece of
the life experience of the artist along with the object.
Gordon
"When artists get together they talk about money, when bankers get
together they talk about art" - not sure who said that.
On Nov 22, 2005, at 5:45 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
>
> ...as for me, i want mature, experienced artists and friends to judge
> my work. people that i trust will join me in growing as an
> artist/crafts
> person.
> i seek them out. i don't care what museum curators say about pots.
> i don't seek journalists to critique my work. i want my customers to
> say...
> `i just love your work mel, here is two hundred dollars for these few
> pieces
> that i am taking home.` now that is critique that counts.
polly on tue 22 nov 05
Amen.... thank you. I went to a show last weekend that the best sell
was a person of low clay skills, but great design/showmanship skills.
I left thinking I had wasted a lot of time becoming a skillful clay
person when I would have better spent my time becoming a better "shill"
artist.
Polly
On Nov 22, 2005, at 6:45 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> one fact that often slips past the
> mind of the working artist/crafts person:
>
> there are many people working/making a living in art,
> often not related to each other.
>
> there is the working artist.
> the shop that sells art.
> the people that teach art.
> the people that write about art.
> the people that write the history of art.
> the people that display art/museums.
> the people that buy art.
> the people that want to know how to buy art.
>
> often, each of these groups think that they
> are in charge of art. it is not uncommon for
> the group that gets left out of the equation
> is the working/making, skilled artist.
>
> folks with `very advanced` degrees often assume that
> they know more than the working/making artist.
> they will tell us what we are doing. they are smart.
> often their writing gets placed on the walls of exhibit halls
> to tell the viewing audience `what the artist thinks and has
> done.` often those that write, do not have a clue what
> artists think, or how the work is done. they assume knowledge.
> because, they are smart. `they study art.`
>
> then of course, the artist wants to appear smart so they
> add to the writing string. `see, i am smart too.`
>
> we often forget that art is visual/tactile. teachers want to
> assist folks in understanding visual art, so they talk about it.
> then of course, they appear to be smart too. far too many teachers
> are trained in teaching art, not making art. that is sad.
>
> then again, the artist is left out for what they did was visual, not
> oral or written. then, what becomes most important?...the
> written word...or analysis. someone will tell us what is good
> or bad...perhaps someone that is trained in journalism or
> museum exhibitions, not art.
>
> our society does not leave much room for the individual to have
> visual experiences. we add sound, video, oral presentation
> to everything. overload.
>
> and that brings us to training of artists. college training in art
> is now mostly based on idea, not skill or training. who knows if ideas
> are good or bad...? someone has to tell us, for it is no longer
> visual art, it is idea art. so that leads us to artists talking to
> artists
> not the public at large...for the public is far too dumb to understand.
> even trained artists are too dumb to understand....for modern `idea
> is unique and very difficult to understand` `wink, wink`, ya know what
> i mean`.
>
> so if you are a maker of visual tactile art, make sure you understand
> that you are mostly alone. you have to make decisions based on
> your training, your experiences and work every day do be true to
> what you believe. it is rare that you will change others opinions
> about
> your work if they do not agree with you. it is yours, and yours alone.
>
> as for me, i want mature, experienced artists and friends to judge
> my work. people that i trust will join me in growing as an
> artist/crafts
> person.
> i seek them out. i don't care what museum curators say about pots.
> i don't seek journalists to critique my work. i want my customers to
> say...
> `i just love your work mel, here is two hundred dollars for these few
> pieces
> that i am taking home.` now that is critique that counts.
> mel
>
>
>
>
>
> from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Snail Scott on tue 22 nov 05
At 07:44 AM 11/22/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>"When artists get together they talk about money, when bankers get
>together they talk about art" - not sure who said that.
Oscar Wilde
-Snail
Snail Scott on tue 22 nov 05
At 08:20 AM 11/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>...I went to a show last weekend that the best sell
>was a person of low clay skills, but great design/showmanship skills...
It's easy to lose track of the whole picture, though.
Coming as we do from a medium rooted in craft, we value
craftsmanship, and appreciate the training, practice,
and effort it requires. It's not the only thing that
gives value to a work, however. 'Showmanship' as you
call it can be galling when it involves puffery and
even outright lies about the virtues of a work, but
the presence of the artist and their persona is often
what attracts people to buy handmade work. To those
buyers, this is as important an element of the purchase
as the tangible object they carry away. Other aspects
of an object also carry weight - a sense of connection
with the buyer's own life or experience, charm/humor,
emotional appeal, aesthetic sensibility, practical
application, etc. Something can be well-made and still
appeal on none of these other points. And vice-versa.
I once helped install a gallery exhibition of works by
many well-known ceramics artists including a prominent
sculptor. Having seen his thoughtful and often poignant
works before, I looked forward to seeing this one
'backstage', and I was startled by the slap-dash,
awkward construction of the piece. Bad! Really, really
rough, and not in a gestural way. Crude. But I was the
art handler - the only person who would see the back of
the piece, or touch its unconsidered inner surfaces. For
the viewers, as for me previously, the piece was still
a fine work of sculpture. If it didn't fall to pieces
in the gallery, was more actually required? What was the
role of craftsmanship here?
A great deal of ceramic work stops at craftsmanship alone.
Boring objects, awkward pottery, pointless sculpture. I
don't care how well-made it is, unless I care about it
first for other reasons. To be sure, there is often a
dearth of craftsmanship where it's sorely needed, but
craftsmanship alone is not our pursuit.
-Snail
Malcolm Schosha on tue 22 nov 05
Hm. Most of the artists I know, when they get together, talk about politics.
In Italy during the 1960s, it was almost the only thing they talked about. The revolution never came though. I guess talk has not enough.
Malcolm Schosha
...........................................
Snail Scott wrote:
At 07:44 AM 11/22/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>"When artists get together they talk about money, when bankers get
>together they talk about art" - not sure who said that.
Oscar Wilde
-Snail
---------------------------------
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Gordon Ward on wed 23 nov 05
I think the Oscar Wilde quote means that most artists are concerned
with making ends meet, while bankers are more concerned with how to
spend their money.
In Italy they talk about politics because the taxes are so high. Tax
evasion is practically the national pastime.
Gordon
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> Hm. Most of the artists I know, when they get together, talk about
> politics.
>
> In Italy during the 1960s, it was almost the only thing they talked
> about. The revolution never came though. I guess talk has not enough.
>
> Malcolm Schosha
>
> ...........................................
>
> Snail Scott wrote:
> At 07:44 AM 11/22/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>> "When artists get together they talk about money, when bankers get
>> together they talk about art" - not sure who said that.
>
>
> Oscar Wilde
>
> -Snail
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Mary K on wed 23 nov 05
In Italy, the National Pastime is changing governments, and striking ....for an hour here and there.....every day :)
Geoffrey Gaskell wrote: Gordon Ward
> I think the Oscar Wilde quote means that most artists are concerned
> with making ends meet, while bankers are more concerned with how to
> spend their money.
>
> In Italy they talk about politics because the taxes are so high. Tax
> evasion is practically the national pastime.
And nineteenth century Prussians such a Clauzwitz, Bismarck etc when
speaking of politics were really talking about war. Just a little aside.
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz/
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______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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Geoffrey Gaskell on thu 24 nov 05
Gordon Ward
> I think the Oscar Wilde quote means that most artists are concerned
> with making ends meet, while bankers are more concerned with how to
> spend their money.
>
> In Italy they talk about politics because the taxes are so high. Tax
> evasion is practically the national pastime.
And nineteenth century Prussians such a Clauzwitz, Bismarck etc when
speaking of politics were really talking about war. Just a little aside.
Geoffrey Gaskell
http://www.geoffreygaskell.co.nz/
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