Snail Scott on sat 26 nov 05
At 01:32 PM 11/26/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
>are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
>armatures, etc...
Why do you assume the need for armature? Have
you been reading one of those stultifyingly
formulaic 'figure sculpture in clay' books
based on old-school academic methods? Those
books are based on an approach that used clay
as a pattern or model for the 'real' piece
made of stone or bronze. The option of being
able to hollow out that pattern and fire it
was considered mainly a 'bonus' back then,
not the primary intent of the effort. They
weren't ceramists, those folks, and they had
different assumptions about the potential
uses of the material. Those weren't stupid or
incompetent or even wrong, necessarily, just
restricted by the traditions of their era.
We can learn a lot from those practices, but
we should certainly not be bound by them!
I prefer to avoid armatures entirely. Just
handbuild it hollow - coil, slab, something
between the two, or a combination as needed.
Armatures have their use, and working solid
does allow for a certain freedom in modeling,
but it also requires a lot more clay, and the
armature itself has to be strong enough to
support the solid form. And, it requires a
certain amount of advance planning and
commitment. Further, though surface modeling
can be a bit freer, the basic form is some
ways more restricted from alterations during
the process than it is for hollow-built work.
I do find it helpful to start with a small
(few inches high) rough maquette (model) of
my intended form, just to work out in my mind
how the 3-D composition looks, and what the
structural concerns may be. It also helps
visulize WHERE on the piece I am, within the
whole, especially when most of that whole
ain't there yet!
Handbuilding sculpture isn't that different
from handbuilding pottery, and since you seem
a bit daunted by the prospect of sculpture in
general, why not do it a bit closer to your
comfort zone for now? Dealing with armature
construction is a can of worms there's no need
to open just because you want to make sculptural
forms.
An occasional bit of 'temporary armature' can
be useful - a wad of paper, or a bit of wood
propping up a floppy bit until it stiffens -
no need to be a purist - but internal armature
is a whole 'nother deal. Armatured work has its
legitimate use, and many people make wonderful
work that way, but perhaps that's something to
try in the future. For now, use the skills you
understand to help your students make sculptural
shapes without it.
And remember, you can use the wheel to make
thrown forms for sculpture. It ain't just a
pottery tool! There is a lot of great clay
sculpture out there that you would never guess
was made on a wheel, as well as some that clearly
proclaims its thrown origins - both equally
legitimate.
By the way, when doing sculptural work, it's
not the firing temperature of the clay that's
a concern; any will do. But, your students may
find that if your usual throwing clay is very
smooth, it may be too plastic and floppy for
effective and efficient handbuilding. The same
clay body with a bit of added grog or sand
(10%-20% more) may serve them better.
-Snail
Johnnie J. on sat 26 nov 05
I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
armatures, etc.
Most of what is done here is functional work either wheel, slab or extruder. This is a direction I would like to pursue both for them as well as myself.
Can any of you recommend some books that would be of value?
I searched the archives but found little on appropriate books.......
Thanks for your help!
Johnnie J. (John Johnson)
Mud Bucket Pottery
mudbucketpottery@yahoo.com
www.mudbucketpottery.com
(843)399-8702
(843)340-1674 cell (when it works)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
lela martens on sat 26 nov 05
Check out `Paper clay`. Google it.
It is wonderful. Husband teaches scupture in it. I could go on, but I think
you`ll get faster info if you do it that way.
A recent article in Pottery Making Illustrated might also help,
Sept/Oct,2005 issue by Sumi von Dassow.
Lela
>From: "Johnnie J."
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Clay Sculpture reference/technique books
>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:32:20 -0800
>
>I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
>are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
>armatures, etc.
>
> Most of what is done here is functional work either wheel, slab or
>extruder. This is a direction I would like to pursue both for them as well
>as myself.
>
> Can any of you recommend some books that would be of value?
> I searched the archives but found little on appropriate books.......
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
>
>
>Johnnie J. (John Johnson)
>Mud Bucket Pottery
>mudbucketpottery@yahoo.com
>www.mudbucketpottery.com
>(843)399-8702
>(843)340-1674 cell (when it works)
>
>
>---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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Graeme Anderson on sat 26 nov 05
If you can find a copy -
Ceramic Sculpture. Methods and Processes.
John B. Kenny. 1953.
ISBN 0-8019-6052-5 paperback.
ISBn 0-8019-0162-6 hardcover.
Good luck. Cheers. Graeme.
Debbie on sun 27 nov 05
Add the three excellent books by Bruno Luccesi and one by Betty Davenport
Ford to the list of other fine ceramic sculpture books previously listed.
You'll find every technique well covered by these top-notch professionals.
Best, Debbie
> Subject: Re: Clay Sculpture reference/technique books
>
>
> At 01:32 PM 11/26/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
> >are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
> >armatures, etc...
>
>
Frank Colson on sun 27 nov 05
Right ON! Armature, sulmushature! Get out of the 19th century and do your
sculpture like you do a pot! Potter/Sculptor, and many others, Toshiko
Takaezu , would go up in the air (small or big) with 1/2" clay walls, take a
break for 10 to 20 minuets, while burning loose sheets of newspaper inside
the hollow form. Voila! When she returned after a cup of java, there was
nothing but paper ashes in the bottom of her
sculpture, sic: pot, and guess what?? The clay walls were stiff and self
supporting. a little scratching on the upper lip(s), add a fresh coil or
slab of clay, and keep going! I tell you, that's Zen! Keep the energy
flowing! Leave the book written techniques to the book writers!
I've done 8' high sculptures in one day without - what do you call it?? An
armature? What's that!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Clay Sculpture reference/technique books
> At 01:32 PM 11/26/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
> >are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
> >armatures, etc...
>
>
> Why do you assume the need for armature? Have
> you been reading one of those stultifyingly
> formulaic 'figure sculpture in clay' books
> based on old-school academic methods? Those
> books are based on an approach that used clay
> as a pattern or model for the 'real' piece
> made of stone or bronze. The option of being
> able to hollow out that pattern and fire it
> was considered mainly a 'bonus' back then,
> not the primary intent of the effort. They
> weren't ceramists, those folks, and they had
> different assumptions about the potential
> uses of the material. Those weren't stupid or
> incompetent or even wrong, necessarily, just
> restricted by the traditions of their era.
> We can learn a lot from those practices, but
> we should certainly not be bound by them!
>
> I prefer to avoid armatures entirely. Just
> handbuild it hollow - coil, slab, something
> between the two, or a combination as needed.
> Armatures have their use, and working solid
> does allow for a certain freedom in modeling,
> but it also requires a lot more clay, and the
> armature itself has to be strong enough to
> support the solid form. And, it requires a
> certain amount of advance planning and
> commitment. Further, though surface modeling
> can be a bit freer, the basic form is some
> ways more restricted from alterations during
> the process than it is for hollow-built work.
>
> I do find it helpful to start with a small
> (few inches high) rough maquette (model) of
> my intended form, just to work out in my mind
> how the 3-D composition looks, and what the
> structural concerns may be. It also helps
> visulize WHERE on the piece I am, within the
> whole, especially when most of that whole
> ain't there yet!
>
> Handbuilding sculpture isn't that different
> from handbuilding pottery, and since you seem
> a bit daunted by the prospect of sculpture in
> general, why not do it a bit closer to your
> comfort zone for now? Dealing with armature
> construction is a can of worms there's no need
> to open just because you want to make sculptural
> forms.
>
> An occasional bit of 'temporary armature' can
> be useful - a wad of paper, or a bit of wood
> propping up a floppy bit until it stiffens -
> no need to be a purist - but internal armature
> is a whole 'nother deal. Armatured work has its
> legitimate use, and many people make wonderful
> work that way, but perhaps that's something to
> try in the future. For now, use the skills you
> understand to help your students make sculptural
> shapes without it.
>
> And remember, you can use the wheel to make
> thrown forms for sculpture. It ain't just a
> pottery tool! There is a lot of great clay
> sculpture out there that you would never guess
> was made on a wheel, as well as some that clearly
> proclaims its thrown origins - both equally
> legitimate.
>
> By the way, when doing sculptural work, it's
> not the firing temperature of the clay that's
> a concern; any will do. But, your students may
> find that if your usual throwing clay is very
> smooth, it may be too plastic and floppy for
> effective and efficient handbuilding. The same
> clay body with a bit of added grog or sand
> (10%-20% more) may serve them better.
>
> -Snail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Kathy Forer on sun 27 nov 05
On Nov 27, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Frank Colson wrote:
> I've done 8' high sculptures in one day without - what do you call
> it?? An
> armature? What's that!
A few words in defense of the armature...
It's less about material or structure than framework and form.
An internal support provides structure for form extrinsic to
structure for materials.
You might say that's not very organic. Or that its physical structure
isn't limited by the nature of the materials. Form is its own
structure. Organic form and objects have related parts or elements of
integral unity, inorganic form is more like fractions or negative,
it's not necessarily harmonious to a whole but potentially expressive
or challenging. You can't learn that if you restrict your form to
what will be formally pleasing.
Fractional form isn't necessarily self-supporting. That's okay, just
find a material that will suit the structure. Choose the appropriate
craft.
okay, big IF*********, caveat
If you learn one craft, it doesn't make you an expert in the others
or even the one, but you will develop a way to learn, to acquire
what's needed. Steal it, borrow it, make it your own and explore with
even as it changes again.
materials and form can be organic
they can also be imposed, ordered or perceived/revealed
You put a model in the middle of a room. You either turn the model or
turn yourselves at intervals. You put lights on the model and lights
on your own work, line the two up or use recall to model what you
don't see. There are many ways of looking at the form of a model, --
accretion of silhouettes, blocking and refining of form, modeling
light and dark, -- you look and work, adjust, work and look. The
process is an whole 'nother animal than constructions from whole cloth.
Not that organic development of material form is not essentially
valuable, but the tradition and study of figure modeling teaches many
worthwhile ways. And it can be fun, expansive, sharing a single model
among many, learning the human figure. What a long amazing tradition
to draw and know the model! Without the armature you'd be forever
struggling with structural problems that are limiting as analog is to
digital. Though often form, as sound, comes through better with
analog, it's a matter of independence of form from structure, even as
there would be independence of form through structure, it's the
negotiation and the choice that prevents servitude.
That all said, what do you do with the armatured figure once you have
it? Let's say in a school setting. You need to take a negative mold
of the form and make a positive reproduction -- wax for metal,
plaster for transitional permanence, hollow cast slip for ceramics.
The indirectness of the method is attenuated by the process. It can
be nice and okay or it can get exacting and tedious. It's almost
always messy, but it's something that makes the final reproduction
become as a secondary source, even tertiary.
So sculptors early in the last century took direct carving from
Africa and the Easter Islands and revived it. Directness and unity of
form and structure in wood and stone.
But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, this is clay,
we're not bound by any one method or approach. We need to study and
develop our own systems and ways of seeing and drawing is one of the
best ways to do it. If you use clay, it's modeling, not construction.
It gets back to the knowledge/perception argument. When do we know or
see things and how? Can we learn to read, learn to perceive, learn to
know or do we and all our moments exist in isolation and
fragmentation? Where is the unity, the relationship, how do we
express it? Or the disunity?
For figure study:
E. Lanteri's books remain valuable, his stuff on drapery is wonderful.
That forms have "rests" is like the teaching that there are no
concave forms anywhere in the body, except Hale made an exception for
the center of the upper lip and somewhere else and apparent
concavities are composed of groups of convexities. All referring to
the anatomy and form of the body, discovered through drawing. Animal,
vegetal, mineral, all are systems as much as they are substance.
Good anatomy book. My favorites are by Robert Beverly Hale. Also
check out his teachers and his students. And Reginald Marsh or
William Rimmer, somebody very expressive, Muybridge sequences. Take a
balance of two methods of teaching, two different classes, so that
one might be really tight and detailed while the other is expressive
and loose. Make your own way.
Kathy
--
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
Jeremy/Bonnie Hellman on sun 27 nov 05
I would suggest to anyone trying Toshiko Takaezu's newspaper burning trick
that you do it outdoors, away from smoke detectors and automatic fire alarm
water sprinklers.
The smoke detector part is one I learned from experience.
Also, there is a certain knack to getting the whole sheet of newspaper to
burn out, and if you want to smooth the pot's interior, you'll likely find
charred bits of paper at the bottom. I learned these from experience as
well.
Bonnie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Colson"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Clay Sculpture reference/technique books
> Right ON! Armature, sulmushature! Get out of the 19th century and do
> your
> sculpture like you do a pot! Potter/Sculptor, and many others, Toshiko
> Takaezu , would go up in the air (small or big) with 1/2" clay walls, take
> a
> break for 10 to 20 minuets, while burning loose sheets of newspaper inside
> the hollow form. Voila! When she returned after a cup of java, there was
> nothing but paper ashes in the bottom of her
> sculpture, sic: pot, and guess what?? The clay walls were stiff and self
> supporting. a little scratching on the upper lip(s), add a fresh coil or
> slab of clay, and keep going! I tell you, that's Zen! Keep the energy
> flowing! Leave the book written techniques to the book writers!
> I've done 8' high sculptures in one day without - what do you call it?? An
> armature? What's that!
>
> Frank Colson
> www.R2D2u.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Snail Scott"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Clay Sculpture reference/technique books
>
>
>> At 01:32 PM 11/26/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>> >I have a few new students interested in doing some clay sculpture(s). We
>> >are using ^6 clay and my concern is things like armatures, removal of
>> >armatures, etc...
>>
>>
>> Why do you assume the need for armature? Have
>> you been reading one of those stultifyingly
>> formulaic 'figure sculpture in clay' books
>> based on old-school academic methods? Those
>> books are based on an approach that used clay
>> as a pattern or model for the 'real' piece
>> made of stone or bronze. The option of being
>> able to hollow out that pattern and fire it
>> was considered mainly a 'bonus' back then,
>> not the primary intent of the effort. They
>> weren't ceramists, those folks, and they had
>> different assumptions about the potential
>> uses of the material. Those weren't stupid or
>> incompetent or even wrong, necessarily, just
>> restricted by the traditions of their era.
>> We can learn a lot from those practices, but
>> we should certainly not be bound by them!
>>
>> I prefer to avoid armatures entirely. Just
>> handbuild it hollow - coil, slab, something
>> between the two, or a combination as needed.
>> Armatures have their use, and working solid
>> does allow for a certain freedom in modeling,
>> but it also requires a lot more clay, and the
>> armature itself has to be strong enough to
>> support the solid form. And, it requires a
>> certain amount of advance planning and
>> commitment. Further, though surface modeling
>> can be a bit freer, the basic form is some
>> ways more restricted from alterations during
>> the process than it is for hollow-built work.
>>
>> I do find it helpful to start with a small
>> (few inches high) rough maquette (model) of
>> my intended form, just to work out in my mind
>> how the 3-D composition looks, and what the
>> structural concerns may be. It also helps
>> visulize WHERE on the piece I am, within the
>> whole, especially when most of that whole
>> ain't there yet!
>>
>> Handbuilding sculpture isn't that different
>> from handbuilding pottery, and since you seem
>> a bit daunted by the prospect of sculpture in
>> general, why not do it a bit closer to your
>> comfort zone for now? Dealing with armature
>> construction is a can of worms there's no need
>> to open just because you want to make sculptural
>> forms.
>>
>> An occasional bit of 'temporary armature' can
>> be useful - a wad of paper, or a bit of wood
>> propping up a floppy bit until it stiffens -
>> no need to be a purist - but internal armature
>> is a whole 'nother deal. Armatured work has its
>> legitimate use, and many people make wonderful
>> work that way, but perhaps that's something to
>> try in the future. For now, use the skills you
>> understand to help your students make sculptural
>> shapes without it.
>>
>> And remember, you can use the wheel to make
>> thrown forms for sculpture. It ain't just a
>> pottery tool! There is a lot of great clay
>> sculpture out there that you would never guess
>> was made on a wheel, as well as some that clearly
>> proclaims its thrown origins - both equally
>> legitimate.
>>
>> By the way, when doing sculptural work, it's
>> not the firing temperature of the clay that's
>> a concern; any will do. But, your students may
>> find that if your usual throwing clay is very
>> smooth, it may be too plastic and floppy for
>> effective and efficient handbuilding. The same
>> clay body with a bit of added grog or sand
>> (10%-20% more) may serve them better.
>>
>> -Snail
>>
>>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Bonnie Staffel on mon 28 nov 05
Dear Clayarters,
You really don't need to use the newspapers inside. With the limits
there are other ways to dry down the first form. I have a hair dryer
set up that I play on the pot while it is revolving. Then after it is
stiff enough to hold the subsequent coils, I wrap a plastic sheet around
it so that it doesn't dry any further. I could make one and a half tall
pots a day using the Bluebird extruding pug mill and two wheels, a pot
going on each one. A potter should relate the height of the pot
according to the height of their kiln. Or they could make the piece in
two parts and fire separately and then glue together.
Warm regards,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
DVD Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD Beginning Processes
Charter Member Potters Council
Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 29 nov 05
Dear Frank Colson,=20
Sometimes folk forget that Clay has been used as a sculpting medium in =
its own rights.
I enjoyed myself some years ago at a Macgregor Summer School when at a =
loose end.
Threw a ten pound pug to about 24 inches and then proceeded to model it =
from the inside, taking care not to leave any finger prints on the outer =
surface, preserving the finer throwing marks. By the end of the day =
there was a very nice slender youthful female torso drawing a varied =
crowd of spectators. Got some good support from that audience and only =
one voice of deprecation from the home group.
Not everything needs a supporting structure.
I could not add to the good lists of books already suggested.
Best regards,
Ivor
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