Joseph Herbert on wed 28 dec 05
I have suggested, from time to time, the burning of non-wood plant matter to
wood fire potters and just gotten odd looks. Some say I got my odd looks
from my father, but I discount that. Anyway, the growth, processing, and
transport of annual plant materials (hay, fodder) is pretty advanced and
efficient. The roll bales that one sees in the fields and along the
highways weigh 1500 to 2000 pounds. They are made by taking a long pile of
dried plants into a machine that rolls that material into a 5 foot diameter
roll before spitting it out on the ground. This process could be easily
reversed, unrolling the plant material into the fire box of a kiln. These
bales cost as little as $15.00 in some areas at some times. If you buy
older bales that are less attractive for animal feed, you can get them for
less than that.
People (wood firers) often disparage the use of annual plant materials on
the basis of quoted analyses for rice and other straws. Usually these
analyses show really high silica content and that leaves the desire for
fluxing of surfaces and melting of ash onto the pots begging. I believe
that non-grain plants have a more interesting ash content because the plant
does different things than do grains. All the stalk of a wheat plant is
there for is to hold the grain head off the ground; all the energy of the
plant goes into the seed head. I believe that non-grass plants would have
more interesting mineral content and that would mean better ash deposition
on ware.
I think just simple laziness on the part of someone would get them to try
this. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPLIT HAY!!
From the standpoint of heat, a ton of carbon is a ton of carbon. Hay
usually comes from unfertilized fields, there are exceptions, and some times
"trash plants" like the cuttings of mixed vegetation along road sides are
roll baled. I would expect that rolls like that might be available for the
hauling.
It could turn out that some plants have especially desirable ash profiles
and thus be raised, cut, and baled for pottery production. On the scale of
environmental desirability, burning annual plant material has to be fairly
innocuous when compared to any kind of fossil fuel burning. Perhaps the
only better thing, environmentally, would be to burn a natural industrial
byproduct that would be disposed of in a land fill, like grape seeds after
the oil is extracted, walnut hulls, cotton seed hulls, and other things.
All the western tradition of burning wood has lead to a well developed
technology of wood burning fire boxes, but for grass burning, not so much.
So it may be that the adaptation of an existing kiln to burn some non-wood
plant material is not trivial. People have made sawdust burners which blow
sawdust into a furnace. there are airtight stoves that are fed
automatically using wood pellets (made from sawdust), and some stoves that
burn corn, a hot fire that.
Being an urban, part time, hobby potter, I will probably not get to try this
but surely some ex-urban, east Texas, frugal, mechanically creative potter
might be able to.
Joseph Herbert
John Jensen on wed 28 dec 05
My friend who is a wheat farmer in central France tells me that some of his
colleagues are burning wheat for heat in the winter. Not wheat chaff.
Wheat. Apparently, the high cost of fuel oil is responsible.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
John Jensen@mudbugpottery.com
http://www.toadhouse.com http://www.mudbugpottery.com
http://www.mudbugblues.com
Mark Issenberg on wed 28 dec 05
Howdy all,, Happy Holidays
Took Nonas Nissan Standza wagon in the have the muffler fixed the other
day.. The place that did the work has waste oil heater. They have a 1,000 gal
tank that all kinds of waste goes into. They paid $3500 a few years ago. The
Garage has 6 bays , a big shop. The heater keeps it 70 degrees.Way nice, no fuel
bill. I would like to find burners that i could use on my Alpine that would
burn waste oil. We have a 500 gallon tank at the shop where i work on my
tractors that we dump used oil etc into..Finally got the exspansion box made at
the shop.. Thanks David
Mark
Getting ready for a trip to Marco Island for a show and also going to Miami
to eat some Cuban food,, dont have much Cuban food in Chattanooga,,
www.lookoutmountainpottery.com
Cheryl Weickert on wed 28 dec 05
This is interesting Joseph, but I have to wonder if anyone has really
tried to burn hay bales in a kiln or anywhere else. From our experience
here trying to burn a bale of hay, it mostly just smolders for days.... it
may make a difference as to how tight the bales are or maybe the ones we
tried to burn were too wet, but then hay if it is put up too wet will
start a fire all on it's own. The bales we lit were the smaller ones that
even I can move around. Now moving a ton bale without machinery is a lot
of work... we did that once too in the winter with a sled... John pulling
and me pushing, it needs the disclaimer... don't try this at home!
Pinky in MN enjoying the quiet of winter.
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:24:18 -0700, Joseph Herbert
wrote:
>I have suggested, from time to time, the burning of non-wood plant matter
to
>wood fire potters and just gotten odd looks. Some say I got my odd looks
>from my father, but I discount that. Anyway, the growth, processing, and
>transport of annual plant materials (hay, fodder) is pretty advanced and
>efficient. The roll bales that one sees in the fields and along the
>highways weigh 1500 to 2000 pounds. They are made by taking a long pile of
>dried plants into a machine that rolls that material into a 5 foot
diameter
>roll before spitting it out on the ground. This process could be easily
>reversed, unrolling the plant material into the fire box of a kiln. These
>bales cost as little as $15.00 in some areas at some times. If you buy
>older bales that are less attractive for animal feed, you can get them for
>less than that.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 28 dec 05
Hi Cheryl,
( While of course I am not Joseph...and he shall likely continue also to
elaborate on his initial mentions...)
With the right draft, or forced draft, or both in turn, it should burn very
well...
Just on it's own laying there, it would not likely burn very well.
A pile of Sawdust might not burn very well just sitting, but, the same pile,
confined narrowly, and allowed a draft or a forced draft, and an egress for
the combustion products, will burn very well and very completely and very
hot indeed...
Dry, and compressed or as dense as possible, I think is also important for
some kinds of controlled combustion of plant matter or plant-particulates or
wood dusts to burn best.
Other methods rely on their being introduced otherwise, in little dabs at a
time and at a fast pace to achieve a rapid combustion, which would be
different then what I am envisioning.
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cheryl Weickert"
> This is interesting Joseph, but I have to wonder if anyone has really
> tried to burn hay bales in a kiln or anywhere else. From our experience
> here trying to burn a bale of hay, it mostly just smolders for days.... it
> may make a difference as to how tight the bales are or maybe the ones we
> tried to burn were too wet, but then hay if it is put up too wet will
> start a fire all on it's own. The bales we lit were the smaller ones that
> even I can move around. Now moving a ton bale without machinery is a lot
> of work... we did that once too in the winter with a sled... John pulling
> and me pushing, it needs the disclaimer... don't try this at home!
>
> Pinky in MN enjoying the quiet of winter.
>
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:24:18 -0700, Joseph Herbert
> wrote:
>
> >I have suggested, from time to time, the burning of non-wood plant matter
> to
> >wood fire potters and just gotten odd looks. Some say I got my odd looks
> >from my father, but I discount that. Anyway, the growth, processing, and
> >transport of annual plant materials (hay, fodder) is pretty advanced and
> >efficient. The roll bales that one sees in the fields and along the
> >highways weigh 1500 to 2000 pounds. They are made by taking a long pile
of
> >dried plants into a machine that rolls that material into a 5 foot
> diameter
> >roll before spitting it out on the ground. This process could be easily
> >reversed, unrolling the plant material into the fire box of a kiln.
These
> >bales cost as little as $15.00 in some areas at some times. If you buy
> >older bales that are less attractive for animal feed, you can get them
for
> >less than that.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Gary Navarre on thu 29 dec 05
Hay Crew,
We have farmers who roll hay and they are huge! Ya could use a chipper to
bust it up and then make pellets. I noticed at Wally World we sell 50lb.
bags for about $3.50 Peter was trying to get me to use them but I told him I
like doing trees. Up here in da U.P. we now have a processor that bundles
the slash from logging into bio-fuel. Years ago I wondered about doing that
with Pine and making lumber and fuel for wood firers. Then I had to fend for
myself finding wood too. This is what I came up with so far and now I get
paid to get my fuel,
http://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/ca/gf/ and with more recent entrys of the
great brush I sold http://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/ca/gf/balsam/ I usually
spend a few hours making fuel, when I'm in studio every day. Got to work a
real job some now but the limbs I just cut can be preped any time. My method
has little environmental impact, provides many enjoyable products, gives me
all the exercise I need, (we don't use the word lazy round here), the trees
love it, makes 'em grow clear logs, (15% return on logs from a groomed
forest), and I'm still gettin paid a little along the way. And at my age it
is all about the money!
Have a safe and happy holidays and stay in there!
G in da UP
http://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/
Lee Love on thu 29 dec 05
Probably, the biggest problem with using grass or straw as fuel for the
kiln is that the volume per amount of heat energy created would be very low.
It might make more sense if the grass were turned into something like rabbit
pellets, but that would take energy.
Wood is just very practical.
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Earl Brunner on thu 29 dec 05
No, only rabbits.......... :)
Earl Brunner e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Love
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:26:41 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel for Kilns
Probably, the biggest problem with using grass or straw as fuel for the
kiln is that the volume per amount of heat energy created would be very low.
It might make more sense if the grass were turned into something like rabbit
pellets, but that would take energy.
Wood is just very practical.
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Frank Colson on thu 29 dec 05
Mark- Again, you can download, free, a diagram for a self generating "waste
oil" burner on my website: www.R2D2u.com I am sure there
is plenty more info on the Clayart archives as this subject was covered a
good deal not long ago.
Don't forget that Marco Island is a spit-wad away from Sarasota. Come by
and take a look at the plants you gave me in Miami!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Issenberg"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel for Kilns
> Howdy all,, Happy Holidays
>
> Took Nonas Nissan Standza wagon in the have the muffler fixed the other
> day.. The place that did the work has waste oil heater. They have a 1,000
gal
> tank that all kinds of waste goes into. They paid $3500 a few years ago.
The
> Garage has 6 bays , a big shop. The heater keeps it 70 degrees.Way nice,
no fuel
> bill. I would like to find burners that i could use on my Alpine that
would
> burn waste oil. We have a 500 gallon tank at the shop where i work on my
> tractors that we dump used oil etc into..Finally got the exspansion box
made at
> the shop.. Thanks David
>
> Mark
> Getting ready for a trip to Marco Island for a show and also going to
Miami
> to eat some Cuban food,, dont have much Cuban food in Chattanooga,,
>
> www.lookoutmountainpottery.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jared Webster on thu 29 dec 05
Driving past a feed lot the other day this thread of conversation came
to mind. What I witnessed was a tractor pulling a large drum
contraption allong one side of the pen. A little shoot out the side
was dispensing loose hay to the cows. This contraption takes bales (a
second tractor was feeding bails into the top as it went) of verious
sizes and shreds them, dispensing a loosened form of the hay. I
believe their are also versions of this that chop the hay to a small
size, though I couldn't tell if this was one of them.
The cattle industry and potters share a need. Get large amounts of
energy to their final product fast. With cattle this is done so that
larger volumns of milk are produced or the beef fattens faster. With
ceramics this is to heat a kiln.
Now lets say we are trying to use the same energy source for a kiln as
they do for cattle. Half of the solutions are there already.
Admittedly most of us wouldn't want to spend a quarter of a million
dollars on a bail shredder just to see if we could hit ^10 using
grass. But you might be able to talk a farmer into coming by and
shredding a few ton of bails into a nice pile that you could then
shovel from into a modified kiln.
Combine this with one of those blower/shredders they sell now for a
couple hundred bucks
(http://www.wards.com/wards/prod_display1.asp?Product=3D70224&partner=3D96&=
CP=3D00&pp=3Dyes&afsrc=3D1)
and you could have yourself one fast delivery system for fuel and air.
Just a thought.
Jared
Cheryl Weickert on fri 30 dec 05
In many ways this topic has come full circle... methane, hay, and ways to
fire that is enviromentally friendly.
The thing with hay is that even if you can get it to burn well enough to
fire a kiln, it won't be cheap long because you will be in competition
with the farmers who are trying to feed their livestock. We have bought
hay for our animals here and in years when the weather wasn't so good the
price of hay goes up.... it's a matter of supply and demand.
Don't people use cow patties to fire with? Someone mentioned rabbit
droppings... wonder if those would burn. Then we run into the same story
again, most farmers I know put the waste from their livestock back into
the ground to keep the circle of life going. Now if you lived near a zoo,
and could get the manure to burn, that might work, I think most of those
in the big cities really don't know what to do with that stuff!
Pinky in MN... no longer buying hay, crop sharing with a neighbor who cuts
and bales our hay, takes his share and leaves us what we need to feed the
critters.
Jared Webster on fri 30 dec 05
> The thing with hay is that even if you can get it to burn well enough to
> fire a kiln, it won't be cheap long because you will be in competition
> with the farmers who are trying to feed their livestock. We have bought
> hay for our animals here and in years when the weather wasn't so good the
> price of hay goes up.... it's a matter of supply and demand.
I agree with the price variability and availability. It changes so
dramatically that many in the livestock business end up buying land to
raise their own crop on.
I would disagree with the part about competing with the livestock
industry. I think that many of the kinds of plants that are unsuitable
for feeding to livestock would have a nearly identical BTU value.
While growing up in southern Alberta I knew farmers that would cut
"scrub" just to knock the stuff down. The earth where it grew was to
rocky or to far from water to make it practical for hay or other kinds
of feed. If you lived in an area with this type of material a farmer
might be convinced to trade you for bailing and hauling. I have no
idea what a farmer might be offered by a potter to spend extra time
and fuel to cut and bail "scrub." I have a feeling though that if you
had a kiln that burned grasses for fuel it would still work out at as
a very low cost firing method.
The key, which has been stated already but deserves repeating, is the
method of burning. Without a way to get any fuel to burn and burn at
its hottest, a discussion of it as a fuel for kilns is academic.
So, anyone want to try their hand at engineering a firebox/burner for
loose annual vegetation?
Jared
Fredrick Paget on fri 30 dec 05
Here in Marin we live in what my wife has called "A green explosion".
Residents have to hire a tree trimming outfit every few years to trim
the trees. They chip the trimmings with a big commercial chipper and
haul it away in a truck.
Bush trimmings, garden refuse and Christmas trees are taken bimonthly
by the recyclers where it is chipped and composted.
It seems like the big tree stuff is too hard to compost because I am
seeing large areas or it in small piles along the highways and
byways, in what seem to be planned dump sites.
When dried out these chips could be burned in a wood kiln. I suppose
they could be fed in by some sort of screw device or blown in. Maybe
even stoked with a shovel like they used to do coal. Drying is not a
problem here as it never, well hardly ever, rains in the summer.
--
From Fred &Nan Paget,
No Tengo Rancho,
Marin County,
California, USA
fredrick@well.com
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