steve graber on fri 30 dec 05
i think years back ceramics monthly had a quote such as "copy whatever you want, but ADD to it in some way".
tell the student you're glad to see skill improving, and wondered why some other aspects couldn't have been brought into the piece? size, shape, color, etc all are oportunities to launch into something unique.
spin it as "great, but did you think about also trying -----".
see ya
steve
Cindy Gatto wrote: Hi all,
Firstly Happy holidays and Happy new year to all I am finally back in the
studio cleaning up after our Christmas show It's amazing how 30 days gets longer
as I get older every year!But anyway I have a situation and I would like
some feed back because I am really not sure if what I am feeling is valid or if
I am over reacting I know this problem has been addressed but this particular
situation has a twist on it Okay I'll stop wandering and get to the point I
own a teaching facility and this is also my studio. There have been
situations in the past where beginner students would try to make some of my more basic
pieces I have looked at the whole picture mainly where was it coming from.
Was this someone who had some skill and the copying wasn't exactly kosher but
they just wanted to make one and give it to mom as a gift -bad taste in my
opinion or was this a beginner student who was simply trying to learn by
mimicking--which to me is acceptable and normal. But now I have a student who is
making pieces that are barely a hop, skip and a jump from a series of one of a
kind pieces that I have been making for several years the bowl form is the
same and other parts have been copied exactly from different pieces The basket
that is on the cover of Lisa Skeens ca lender is one of the pieces from the
series The handle or the foot or the glaze etc.is different but the basic bowl
is the same and this person is doing the same series -except I have been
doing it for a few years. The other part is that this person has artist
aspirations, this is more than just a hobby, she also has connections in the NYC art
world that all of us would probably kill for. I know that she is looking to
if not already has been showing her work. There is a difference from being
influenced by something and just making basically the same piece I mean she
didn't even change my foot or the way I texture some of them or the shape
Basically they are the basket on the calendar with side handles [which I've also
done]Now the big glitch is that this is the ONLY student we have that helps us
out at all and she helps quite a bit so it's really uncomfortable. So I know I
need to say something but I am really not sure of what to say I don't want
to lose the help we need it but I do not want someone making pieces that are
that close to mine especially since she does have the same professional hopes
that I do. Thank you in advance
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
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Cindy Gatto on fri 30 dec 05
Hi all,
Firstly Happy holidays and Happy new year to all I am finally back in the
studio cleaning up after our Christmas show It's amazing how 30 days gets longer
as I get older every year!But anyway I have a situation and I would like
some feed back because I am really not sure if what I am feeling is valid or if
I am over reacting I know this problem has been addressed but this particular
situation has a twist on it Okay I'll stop wandering and get to the point I
own a teaching facility and this is also my studio. There have been
situations in the past where beginner students would try to make some of my more basic
pieces I have looked at the whole picture mainly where was it coming from.
Was this someone who had some skill and the copying wasn't exactly kosher but
they just wanted to make one and give it to mom as a gift -bad taste in my
opinion or was this a beginner student who was simply trying to learn by
mimicking--which to me is acceptable and normal. But now I have a student who is
making pieces that are barely a hop, skip and a jump from a series of one of a
kind pieces that I have been making for several years the bowl form is the
same and other parts have been copied exactly from different pieces The basket
that is on the cover of Lisa Skeens ca lender is one of the pieces from the
series The handle or the foot or the glaze etc.is different but the basic bowl
is the same and this person is doing the same series -except I have been
doing it for a few years. The other part is that this person has artist
aspirations, this is more than just a hobby, she also has connections in the NYC art
world that all of us would probably kill for. I know that she is looking to
if not already has been showing her work. There is a difference from being
influenced by something and just making basically the same piece I mean she
didn't even change my foot or the way I texture some of them or the shape
Basically they are the basket on the calendar with side handles [which I've also
done]Now the big glitch is that this is the ONLY student we have that helps us
out at all and she helps quite a bit so it's really uncomfortable. So I know I
need to say something but I am really not sure of what to say I don't want
to lose the help we need it but I do not want someone making pieces that are
that close to mine especially since she does have the same professional hopes
that I do. Thank you in advance
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
David Hendley on sat 31 dec 05
Not being a teacher, I apologize if this offends any teachers here.
In my opinion, it is part of the job description of being an art
teacher that students "will be influenced by/copy your work".
The student is paying tuition for a concentrated dose of being
exposed to how the teacher works and what she makes.
When the student can make a good copy, it is probably a good
time for her to move on, but it is also a demonstration of a
certain skill level. If the teacher is uncomfortable, that is a sign
that the student is competent.
This was certainly true in my case, in grad school, in the '70's.
My teacher made heavy, carved, bulbous, unglazed pots, so
I did as well. Looking back, that kind of work fit my personality
about as well as a size 2 prom dress, but I gained a lot of skill
by copying. And I was good enough that my teacher was starting
to get uncomfortable. I, for my part, was observant enough to
realize it was time to stop copying.
The ceramics world is full of copying, or more charitably stated,
"influences". The "style du jour" shows up anywhere and
everywhere, and I'm sure all long-time potters tire of it as quickly
as I.
On the other hand, I am put off by potters who think they "own"
a form, glaze, or technique. I'm sorry, but if you are making bowls,
there is no possible way you are making a unique shape. With
4,000 years of ceramics history, it has, without a doubt, been
done before.
I know copying is irritating, especially if you perceive it as
threatening your sales as an artist.
But the best advice I can give a true artist is to ignore what
others are doing. Your unique true voice will be heard through
all the static. Look inward, make your work even more personal.
Best wishes to all for a great 2006.
David Hendley
Old Farmhouse Pottery
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
But now I have a student who is
> making pieces that are barely a hop, skip and a jump from a series of one
> of a
> kind pieces that I have been making for several years the bowl form is the
> same and other parts have been copied exactly from different pieces The
> basket
> that is on the cover of Lisa Skeens ca lender is one of the pieces from
> the
> series The handle or the foot or the glaze etc.is different but the basic
> bowl
> is the same and this person is doing the same series -except I have been
> doing it for a few years.
Pat Logue on sat 31 dec 05
Hi Cindi
One technique I learned somewhere in my past is this
Point out the comparison to your work. Then challenge them to make it their
own, meaning alter one thing about it, then another etc.. till its
unrecognizable compared to yours.use the existing work as a start point,
then make them go somewhere else.(creatively)
Point out the problem, even help with suggestions... creative problem
solving.
Hopefully the students feelings arent hurt, and you dont get ripped off.
good luck
Pat
Penni Stoddart on sat 31 dec 05
Cindy,
My feeling on this (and I am closer in proximity to the student then the
teacher) is that you answered your own question with your last couple of
statements.
You said
"So I know I need to say something but I am really not sure of what to say
I don't want to lose the help we need it but I do not want someone making
pieces that are
that close to mine especially since she does have the same professional
hopes
that I do. "
Could you re-word that statement and say it to her rather then to us?
Something like "We really appreciate all the hard work you do around here
and don't want to lose you. However, that being said, I am also feeling
really uncomfortable seeing my work so closely copied........."
Some thing like that.
Make sure you use I and we statements - feels less like a personal attack
that way. Give compliments first and thanks and praise for the hard work etc
then use an I statement to say what your problem is.
Not a comfortable place to be in but like you said, something must be said.
Good Luck,
Penni Stoddart
primalmommy on sun 1 jan 06
Cindy --
First of all, punctuation is your friend.
Second -- what in the world is keeping you from opening your mouth and
saying something?
"That's nice, but it really is way too much like the one I showed you.
Before you sell it or put it "out there" in public, you need to spend
some more time working it over until you make it your own."
It's hard for people to develop and experiment in the limited time and
general scrutiny of a public/classroom studio situation.
When I see somebody make a great pot at a workshop, I come home to my
own little studio, all by my lonesome, and make it. Then try it with my
own handles, my own tricks, my surface decoration and best glaze and
eventually it travels to a place where it's no longer like the one that
impressed me at first. Most experiments are never fired. NOBODY SEES
those transitional pots, nobody sees the direct plagiarisms. (Correction
-- I gave my dad the big Roman bowl I made just like Tony's from the
video. But with MY glaze, ^6 electric -- nobody would mistake it for
Tony's and dad won't be selling it.)
In a classroom situation, everything you make is scrutinized. And
everybody dips in the same glaze bucket, fires in the same kiln.
Intellectual inbreeding and identical glazing/firing is not going to
allow the acorn to fall far from the tree.
In my own classes I have plans to try and avoid that. I bring in good
pots by other potters, magazines, posters, photos. I am putting together
a slide show. And I don't make my most unique pots as demos in class.
Students can borrow my bisque stamps ONCE and then they make their own.
When potters get serious I encourage them to "graduate", learn to mix
their own glazes and fire their own pots elsewhere.
Anyway the answer to your situation seems really obvious to me. Open
your mouth and SAY IT OUT LOUD to the person who needs to hear it.
Kindly, firmly. You just said it to 2000 potters (and it may get back to
your student before you bring it up.)
Sheesh. Maybe I lack social skills, but all the tiptoeing and
handholding and somebody-hurt-my-feelings and
oooo-what-if-they-take-it-the-wrong-way stuff just makes me weary, in
the world around me as well as on clayart. Life is not a popularity
contest or a support group. Not everybody is going to like you, or
approve of your choices, or agree with your opinions. If you care, do
something. If you don't care enough to do something, let it go and be
done with it. If you are not being mean or petty or egotistical, if your
intentons are honorable, then let the chips fall where they may. You
have nothing to feel bad about by drawing a line for your
student/friend/peer.
Yours
Kelly in Ohio
Where the children have gone feral after two weeks of vacation -- and a
friend's two kids will be staying with us most of next week -- and I
have studio orders to fill -- so I need to go get my ducks in a row for
the new year/curriculum/budget/schedule.
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