Maurice Weitman on thu 12 jan 06
At 9:43 PM -0600 on 1/12/06, Tom at Hutchtel.net wrote:
>Betsy got a note back from Tom Coleman that the spray gun that Geil is
>selling is the one at Harbor Freight which has been discussed on the list
>before.
>
>FYI it is on sale right now for $20 versus the list of $30...$35 at Geil.
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=324&pricetype=
Tom,
With all due respect to you and Tom Coleman, I don't think so.
Harbor Freight sells dozens of similar-looking spray guns.
And there have been many different Harbor Freight spray guns
discussed on clayart.
The ($20/$30) one you appear to point to is NOT an HVLP gun.
The Geil gun is an HVLP gun. At least the one I bought from them is.
Harbor Freight sells many HVLP guns, and the ones closest to the Geil
gun (in my humble opinion, from my possibly flawed research and
limited experience, the good lord willing, and your mileage may vary)
are selling for about $60.
However, your original question (posted under a different subject --
sets my teeth on edge!) was:
>Does anyone know the brand of the gun Geil is selling? It's a top cup and
>sells for about $35. Betsy needs some extra cups and Geil doesn't handle
>them.
To the question of the cups, I can testify that the cup that is on my
Harbor Freight HVLP spray gun (item #43430) WILL fit my Geil HVLP
gun. They are the same size and have the same size fitting.
Perhaps that's what Tom Coleman meant.
In any case, you can probably call Harbor Freight customer service
and buy some additional cups from them.
By the way, it's certainly possible that the cheaper ($20) guns also
use the same cup, and they may be cheaper.
Regards,
Maurice
Tae Kim on thu 12 jan 06
hi everyone,
i just want to know what everyone is using for their air spray gun and air
compressor. there are so many kinds and brands out there taht I am getting
overwhelmed in my selection.
i just want to be able to use my spray gun to paint over ceramics scultupre
and glazing, and maybe some fixings around the house.
nice and quite one would be nice, and more exact i can get, the better it
is.
thanks all
Tom at Hutchtel.net on thu 12 jan 06
Betsy got a note back from Tom Coleman that the spray gun that Geil is
selling is the one at Harbor Freight which has been discussed on the list
before.
FYI it is on sale right now for $20 versus the list of $30...$35 at Geil.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=324&pricetype=
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
> i just want to know what everyone is using for their air spray gun and air
> compressor. there are so many kinds and brands out there taht I am getting
> overwhelmed in my selection.
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sat 14 jan 06
When I saw the difference, I had the same question in my mind. I know you
can't use the gauge on the compressor because of the pressure loss in the
air hose...especially since most of us are using 1/4 inch hose a practice
especially frowned on by the air profession. Maurice's reply today shed
some light on this, and maybe he can answer your concerns. A page I found
in digging deeper follows. An excellent discussion of pressure and HVLP vs
regular.
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/0103qf1.html
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
> I am a little concerned about your last statement - that the Geil gun does
> not have an input pressure regulator/gauge. This is supposedly an HVLP
> "conversion" gun, which means that it runs off a standard compressor.
> Normally conversion guns run on about 10 PSI, and in order to have enough
> volume for HVLP, they must have higher pressure in the air supply hose,
> regulated down to 10 PSI right at the gun. From all my research, this is
> a
> standard feature of all HVLP conversion guns. So, how does the Geil work
> as
> a true HVLP conversion gun if you have to regulate down to 10 PSI at the
> compressor, since a normal air hose will not carry enough volume at 10 PSI
> to run a HVLP conversion gun? Anyone out there with a Geil spray gun care
> to address this? Is it in fact working as a true HVLP conversion gun on
> 10
> PSI, with the pressure regulated at the compressor?
> - Vince
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sat 14 jan 06
Oh yes...I think the way Geil is handling the volume issue is by having an
inlet screw on the gun as well as an adjustment at the nozzle.
Tom
David Martin Hershey on sat 14 jan 06
Hi Vince & All,
Vince, I hope your leg is healing up!
I have two Harbor Freight HVLP guns upgraded to the larger nozzle.
I also have the Porter Cable HVLP gun, and the Geil.
They all appear to have been made by the same Chinese manufacturer.
The needles and nozzles (and I assume the seals),
are interchangeable,
with cosmetic and finish differences in the bodies.
I run them all at about 28 pounds at the trap/regulator,
and adjust down at the gun, with the air fine tune-
depending on the glaze.
Compressor is a PC with 25 gal tank,
tank at 145 to 175psi: 5.6 scfm at 40psi, 5.1 scfm at 90 line.
The guns all perform fairly the same,
with the Geil to be just slightly better.
The Geil has a flatter grind on the needle/nozzle,
and a finer more adjustable spring on the air fine tune.
The spring on the volume control is probably better too-
at least on the one I got.
All these guns work fairly well, with the seals being prone to
wearing out before the needles.(oil them)
I am able to get replacement seals from Harbor and PC.
Haven't worn out the Geil yet, but I bet the other seals will fit.
The best thing about the Geil is the DVD they made with
Tom Coleman. (I believe you get a deal if you buy them both.)
Tom clearly shows spraying technique, with a good graphic
depiction of how adjusting the fan & volume affects the spray.
This is one of the hardest things for beginners to grasp.
I would like to thank Paul Geil for selling a good
spray gun with instruction, at a price potters can afford.
http://www.kilns.com/
Best always,
DMH
Beautiful Hermosa Beach CA USA
where the Gray Whale
migration count
is 151, with 19 calves
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sat 14 jan 06
Maurice...you of course were right...the gun Betsy found at $20 Harbor
Freight was not HVLP. I had jumped too fast when she said she'd found the
same gun. Anyway, glad you posted to correct it. I did dig around and see
the Geil gun is now $45 and Harbor Freight's cheapest is $60.
One difference is that the HF guns have an input pressure gauge which the
Geil items does not.
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
Subject: Re: spray gun and air compressor...
> At 9:43 PM -0600 on 1/12/06, Tom at Hutchtel.net wrote:
>>Betsy got a note back from Tom Coleman that the spray gun that Geil is
>>selling is the one at Harbor Freight which has been discussed on the list
>>before.
> Tom,
>
> With all due respect to you and Tom Coleman, I don't think so.
>
> Harbor Freight sells dozens of similar-looking spray guns.
>
> And there have been many different Harbor Freight spray guns
> discussed on clayart.
>
> The ($20/$30) one you appear to point to is NOT an HVLP gun.
>
> The Geil gun is an HVLP gun. At least the one I bought from them is.
>
> Harbor Freight sells many HVLP guns, and the ones closest to the Geil
> gun (in my humble opinion, from my possibly flawed research and
> limited experience, the good lord willing, and your mileage may vary)
> are selling for about $60.
>
Vince Pitelka on sat 14 jan 06
> Maurice...you of course were right...the gun Betsy found at $20 Harbor
> Freight was not HVLP. I had jumped too fast when she said she'd found the
> same gun. Anyway, glad you posted to correct it. I did dig around and
> see
> the Geil gun is now $45 and Harbor Freight's cheapest is $60.
> One difference is that the HF guns have an input pressure gauge which the
> Geil items does not.
Tom -
I am a little concerned about your last statement - that the Geil gun does
not have an input pressure regulator/gauge. This is supposedly an HVLP
"conversion" gun, which means that it runs off a standard compressor.
Normally conversion guns run on about 10 PSI, and in order to have enough
volume for HVLP, they must have higher pressure in the air supply hose,
regulated down to 10 PSI right at the gun. From all my research, this is a
standard feature of all HVLP conversion guns. So, how does the Geil work as
a true HVLP conversion gun if you have to regulate down to 10 PSI at the
compressor, since a normal air hose will not carry enough volume at 10 PSI
to run a HVLP conversion gun? Anyone out there with a Geil spray gun care
to address this? Is it in fact working as a true HVLP conversion gun on 10
PSI, with the pressure regulated at the compressor?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Maurice Weitman on sat 14 jan 06
At 8:59 AM -0600 on 1/14/06, Tom at Hutchtel.net wrote:
>Maurice...you of course were right...the gun Betsy found at $20 Harbor
>Freight was not HVLP. I had jumped too fast when she said she'd found the
>same gun. Anyway, glad you posted to correct it. I did dig around and see
>the Geil gun is now $45 and Harbor Freight's cheapest is $60.
>One difference is that the HF guns have an input pressure gauge which the
>Geil items does not.
There are other differences, Tom.
Although I do appreciate the pressure gauge on the HF gun, most spray
setups (should) have a filter and pressure regulation before the
hose, so it shouldn't be necessary.
I think the important considerations when comparing HVLP guns are the
nozzle size and air requirements.
The Geil gun comes with a 2.0 mm nozzle. Many (most?) HVLP guns come
with smaller (1.2 or 1.5) nozzles. For many of our glazes, we need
larger than those smaller nozzles.
The HF gun I have (43430) had an option for larger nozzles, and I use
a 2.2 mm jobbie.
I believe Geil's 2.0 nozzle is more than sufficient for most of what
potters use.
Now the air business is trickier. Most guns mention a wide range of
CFM (air consumption) and PSI (air pressure) requirements.
Of minor consequence is the former; if a gun requires more air, it
means the compressor will work more (or, in the worst cases, will
just be undersized). A gun's pressure spec is another matter.
The "LP" means low pressure. This, as with many concepts, is
relative and many guns calling themselves HVLP need as much as
pressure as regular guns. Higher pressure usually means more
overspray and therefore more wasted glaze (and more environmental
issues and more frequent filter replacement/cleaning, etc.).
For us, the result of the lack of standards/requirements for stating
accurate numbers for these factors is that it's very difficult to
compare guns. With Harbor Freight, that means even among their own
guns.
A distinct advantage to buying the Geil gun is that we know it works
well with glazes.
A disadvantage (as you've found out) is that spare parts are not
really available - from Geil. As I've noted, some parts may be
interchangeable with HF guns, but not all. I prefer not disposing of
tools when a part wears, so I appreciate the availability of spare
parts.
Regards,
Maurice
Vince Pitelka on sun 15 jan 06
Maurice Weitman wrote:
> Although I do appreciate the pressure gauge on the HF gun, most spray
> setups (should) have a filter and pressure regulation before the
> hose, so it shouldn't be necessary.
Maurice -
As I said in another message, I have my doubts about any gun claiming to be
a HVLP conversion gun that does not have a step-down regulator at the air
inlet on the gun itself. As you know, a true HVLP gun runs on its own
turbine system and requires no compressor. A HVLP conversion gun uses a
conventional compressor, but every conversion gun I have seen has a
step-down regulator on the gun. The reason for that requirement is simple.
Conversion guns generally use a maximum of 10 PSI, and the volume of air
required by a true HVLP conversion gun cannot be delivered at 10 PSI through
a conventional air hose. As you have noted, the turbine-driven systems have
a much larger-diameter hose. So, the way around that is to have the
pressure at the compressor set at 100 PSI or so, and then set the step-down
regulator on the gun at 10 PSI. Then the gun gets the high volume, low
pressure that it needs.
Unless I am mistaken (which is a distinct possibility) a conventional
compressor-driven gun that does not have a step-down regulator on the air
inlet is not a HVLP gun. Maybe that's why these guns are so inexpensive.
You wrote:
> The Geil gun comes with a 2.0 mm nozzle. Many (most?) HVLP guns come
> with smaller (1.2 or 1.5) nozzles.
That may be true of some of the cheapo Harbor Freight guns, but with ALL of
the quality HVLP conversion guns you can choose between a range of sizes of
nozzle sets depending on the density of material you wish to spray.
You wrote:
> The "LP" means low pressure. This, as with many concepts, is
> relative and many guns calling themselves HVLP need as much as
> pressure as regular guns.
That's the question, isn't it? If a gun requires as much pressure as a
regular gun, then it's not an HVLP gun, regardless of the seller's claims.
It's as simple as that. The entire point of all HVLP systems is that the
transfer rate is far higher with low pressure and high volume - much more of
the paint or glaze ends up on the work rather than being wasted as
overspray. That's why HVLP systems pay for themselves so quickly. And
that's why we should make sure we are really getting true HVLP guns.
> A distinct advantage to buying the Geil gun is that we know it works
> well with glazes.
I know that there are some Clayarters out there using the Geil gun, and
perhaps they can clear up some questions. If there is no step-down
regulator on the gun itself, what pressure do you set on the compressor
regulator? If you have to set the regulator much higher than 10 PSI, then
this unit is not a HVLP gun.
I really want to see this cleared up. We're still using a standard Paasche
spray gun at the Craft Center, and I'd like to switch over to HVLP. I was
thinking of purchasing the Geil gun, but only if it is a true HVLP
conversion gun running on 10 PSI or less.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Maurice Weitman on sun 15 jan 06
At 3:16 PM -0600 on 1/14/06, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>I am a little concerned about your last statement - that the Geil gun does
>not have an input pressure regulator/gauge. This is supposedly an HVLP
>"conversion" gun, which means that it runs off a standard compressor.
>Normally conversion guns run on about 10 PSI, and in order to have enough
>volume for HVLP, they must have higher pressure in the air supply hose,
>regulated down to 10 PSI right at the gun. From all my research, this is a
>standard feature of all HVLP conversion guns. So, how does the Geil work as
>a true HVLP conversion gun if you have to regulate down to 10 PSI at the
>compressor, since a normal air hose will not carry enough volume at 10 PSI
>to run a HVLP conversion gun? Anyone out there with a Geil spray gun care
>to address this? Is it in fact working as a true HVLP conversion gun on 10
>PSI, with the pressure regulated at the compressor?
Gee, Vince, I had the measles when they covered what standards an
"HVLP conversion gun" needs to meet.
In fact, the only place I've seen that term was in your clayart
messages, so I can't comment on what it "should" have.
But the Geil instruction manual says it needs 30-50 PSI. It makes no
mention of CFM. As others have mentioned, there's an adjustment on
the gun to control the amount of air available to the trigger control
for the nozzle.
For comparison, the Harbor Freight 43430 gun's manual calls for 15-50
PSI and says it uses 9.5-14.8 CFM. I assume that's for the
(supplied) 1.4 mm nozzle.
I can't comment on DMH's useful information comparing an
(unspecified) HF gun to the Geil, but my HF (#43430) gun is made in
Taiwan. The Geil is unmarked, but I seem to recall the package said
"China." It's quite likely that most parts are interchangeable
between my two guns.
At least superficially, I find the quality (the "fit and finish") of
the HF gun seems better than that of the Geil. (It's certainly a
nicer color.) I haven't found much difference between the results
obtained with either gun; they both work very smoothly and offer good
control. Perhaps with more time behind the trigger, some differences
will become more obvious.
I also agree with DMH that the Coleman/Geil DVD is useful. Perhaps
not the snappiest action... it lags in spots; but it does give enough
information to set up and use the gun with glazes.
Regards,
Maurice
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