Jeff Guin on sun 15 jan 06
Hello Fellow ClayArters.
I have just finished constructing my first fiber-lined, garbage can, raku
kiln and quite excited about firing it up and seeing how it fires. Can I
fire a load or two prior to applying rigidizer to the fiber? Will this harm
or destroy the fiber? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.
Jeff Guin
Coon Valley, WI
http://mudwerks.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mudhead99/
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Hank Murrow on sun 15 jan 06
On Jan 15, 2006, at 5:26 AM, Jeff Guin wrote:
>
> I have just finished constructing my first fiber-lined, garbage can,
> raku
> kiln and quite excited about firing it up and seeing how it fires. Can
> I
> fire a load or two prior to applying rigidizer to the fiber? Will this
> harm
> or destroy the fiber?
Dear Jeff;
You will find that the first firing will burn out the binders that are
coating the fiber to make it easy to handle without breaking apart.
Once these binders are burned out, th fiber is much more abradable, so
it may be a good idea to apply your rigidizer before the first firing,
unless you plan to spray it on.
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Marcia Selsor on sun 15 jan 06
Firing won't destroy the fiber, but it does become nasty stuff after
firing, more
likely to have particles separating and becoming airborne. That is
why it is best
to apply rigidizer first IMHO. I apply ITC to the interior of my raku
kilns and rigidizer
on the outside. The fiber on my kilns is exposed on the exterior
because the
structure is wire and angle iron.
ITC increases the efficiency tremendously.
Marcia Selsor
Billings, Montana
On Jan 15, 2006, at 6:26 AM, Jeff Guin wrote:
> Hello Fellow ClayArters.
> I have just finished constructing my first fiber-lined, garbage
> can, raku
> kiln and quite excited about firing it up and seeing how it fires.
> Can I
> fire a load or two prior to applying rigidizer to the fiber? Will
> this harm
> or destroy the fiber? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.
> Jeff Guin
> Coon Valley, WI
>
> http://mudwerks.blogspot.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mudhead99/
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
> it's FREE!
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>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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>
Frank Colson on sun 15 jan 06
Jeff- Although rigidizer is helpful, there is no need to use it at all,!
In my book, "Kiln Building with Space Age Materials" (now out of print but
available online), Chapter 5, on making a " Portable Raku Kiln", is a
listing on the materials page for a rigidizer but doesn't even suggest using
it except to glue the lid lining.
After making hundreds of all fiber raku kilns, and demo's world wide, I
never found a need for applying rigidizer. There is no harm in its
application, mind you! But if you feel the need to spend extra $'s and
time for this, go for it!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Guin"
To:
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:26 AM
Subject: Fiber kiln and rigidizer
> Hello Fellow ClayArters.
> I have just finished constructing my first fiber-lined, garbage can, raku
> kiln and quite excited about firing it up and seeing how it fires. Can I
> fire a load or two prior to applying rigidizer to the fiber? Will this
harm
> or destroy the fiber? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.
> Jeff Guin
> Coon Valley, WI
>
> http://mudwerks.blogspot.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mudhead99/
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 16 jan 06
Dear Jeff Guin,
What do the makers of the materials say ? You should follow their =
instructions to the letter.
How much do we know about fibre used in kilns. What type and quality are =
you using. Even one firing will start the aging process that leads to =
embrittlement of some types of fibre. After that any mechanical shock =
can lead to disintegration of a kiln lining.
My suggestion would be to get the stuff on, let it dry and then fire.
Best regards.
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Frank Colson on mon 16 jan 06
Ivor/Olive- When I first introduced "ceramic fiber" to Australia for use in
potter's kilns, raku, & melt furnaces through work shops and demos,in your
country, there never was, and still isn't, any form of "disintegration" of
kiln linings. Early in the days of my patent application with ceramic
fibers, Carbonrundum Company, brought me to their major plant to witness the
manufacturing process. Some early applications of ceramic fibers were used
as time release ignition for multi-headed nuclear missiles, among other
"domestic" applications . It is mis-leading to suggest that these materials
disintegrate from thermal "shock". Mechanical "abuse"; i.e. hitting,
cutting, banging, and overfiring the rated temp tolerance,WILL not only
disintegrate ceramic fiber but DESTROY the material!
How much do we know? A lot about ceramic fibers! The one caution I do make
in handling these materials, is the awareness of micro-fiber particles which
become airborne when handling. Best to ware a respirator mask! Also, in
small portable fiber lined kilns, particles can be
projected into the immediate atmosphere during activation. Coating
surfaces with ITC, or other type of ridigizer certainly helps to reduce this
factor. However, they are not necessary for performance. I often place a
small fan directed away from the action if I am firing up a new lined
kiln;sic: raku!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor and Olive Lewis" To:
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject: Fiber kiln and rigidizer
Dear Jeff Guin,
What do the makers of the materials say ? You should follow their
instructions to the letter.
How much do we know about fibre used in kilns. What type and quality are you
using. Even one firing will start the aging process that leads to
embrittlement of some types of fibre. After that any mechanical shock can
lead to disintegration of a kiln lining.
My suggestion would be to get the stuff on, let it dry and then fire.
Best regards.
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
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melpots@pclink.com.
JOYCE LEE on mon 16 jan 06
Ivor said:
"Even one firing will start the aging process that leads to =
embrittlement of some types of fibre. After that any mechanical shock =
can lead to disintegration of a kiln lining."
_________________________________________________________
I have two Geil fiber kilns. I applied ITC to the smaller one AFTER=20
receiving excellent directions from the ITC people..... PLUS tons of
suggestions from clayarters who had much success with its use.
That kiln has been in use for about 8 years with no problems. I'm
still not sure I really needed the ITC since it's such an efficient
studio kiln as is. I do appreciate the ITC effect on my shelves,
however .... no kiln wash needed, no worrying whether to-flip or =
not-to-flip
shelves. Even my first cheapest of all shelves have survived well
through my many attempts to ruin them forever.
The second Geil is somewhat larger and has fiber that has been
treated by the Geil company. Upon everybody's recommendation,
(Geil, ITC, claybuds) I did not treat it with ITC...... except for the =
shelves.=20
Good results all around.
However, I want to add that a very fine and prolific local potter friend =
has used her small Geil gas fiber kiln..... the smallest offered that =
wasn't=20
simply a test kiln ........ the same model that my small one is.....
for over 25 years...... firing constantly, since she's in many shows=20
a year as well as selling from her studio, and having contracts with
many out-of-state galleries and gift shops during that time. She
replaced the fiber once a few years ago and is now buying a larger
Geil gas fiber kiln. =20
Joyce
In the Mojave where it's been dropping to 25 F at night brrr but the
days are gorgeous.... sunny, blue-on-blue skies ..... irises are
blooming in the rose garden ..... yet off and on there's snow on the
Sierras around our desert valley ...... absolutely stuns the observer =
........
Malcolm Schosha on tue 17 jan 06
My understanding is that the fiber coating rigidizer is intended to
reduce release of fiber dust, which is NOT good stuff to breath. My
recollection is that Elsbeth Woody (who I met a number of times when
I was making pots at the Clay Art Center, in Port Chester, NY) was
opposed to the use of fiber insulation because she considered it an
unnecessary health hazard.
Anyone who does use it should, at least, carefully read the Material
Safty Data Sheet, for which I give a link to a PDF file:
http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/ThermalCeramics/201.pdf
Be well.
Malcolm Schosha
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Ivor and Olive Lewis
wrote:
>
> Dear Jeff Guin,
>
> What do the makers of the materials say ? You should follow their
instructions to the letter.
>
> How much do we know about fibre used in kilns. What type and
quality are you using. Even one firing will start the aging process
that leads to embrittlement of some types of fibre. After that any
mechanical shock can lead to disintegration of a kiln lining.
>
> My suggestion would be to get the stuff on, let it dry and then
fire.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Ivor Lewis.
> Redhill,
> South Australia.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
>
Hank Murrow on tue 17 jan 06
Dear Malcolm;
You are correct about fiber dust. It is exactly as dangerous as silica
or clay dust......but no more dangerous. The trick in fiber design is
to make sure abrasion does not occur. That ios why I chose a lifting
design for my Doorless Fiberkiln. When the chamber is up the fiber is
out of reach, and when it is down it is also out of reach. Little
danger of abrasion. As for fiber losses during the firing, I have
placed stainless steel mesh screens over the flue exit to catch any
stray fiber during the firing. There was no fiber caught in the
screens.
You may view the design by scrolling halfway down the page at:
http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org/mustreads/shinofire.asp
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
On Jan 17, 2006, at 7:50 AM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> My understanding is that the fiber coating rigidizer is intended to
> reduce release of fiber dust, which is NOT good stuff to breath. My
> recollection is that Elsbeth Woody (who I met a number of times when
> I was making pots at the Clay Art Center, in Port Chester, NY) was
> opposed to the use of fiber insulation because she considered it an
> unnecessary health hazard.
>
> Anyone who does use it should, at least, carefully read the Material
> Safty Data Sheet, for which I give a link to a PDF file:
> http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/ThermalCeramics/201.pdf
>
www.murrow.biz/hank
Malcolm Schosha on tue 17 jan 06
Hank,
What a beautifully designed, and constructed, kiln!
My guess is that for you the fiber insulation is safe to use because
you are so thorough and careful in your work. But many potters are
more casual and offhand in how they handle their materials. So, I
still have doubts about the wide spread use of fiber insulation,
because if there is any physical impact to the material a massive
amount to dust is produced. Moreover, the fiber dust ay well be more
harmful than silica dust...which is certainly harmful to breath.
Thanks for the link. Nice work.
Malcolm Schosha
.....................
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Hank Murrow wrote:
>
> Dear Malcolm;
>
> You are correct about fiber dust. It is exactly as dangerous as
silica
> or clay dust......but no more dangerous. The trick in fiber design
is
> to make sure abrasion does not occur. That ios why I chose a lifting
> design for my Doorless Fiberkiln. When the chamber is up the fiber
is
> out of reach, and when it is down it is also out of reach. Little
> danger of abrasion. As for fiber losses during the firing, I have
> placed stainless steel mesh screens over the flue exit to catch any
> stray fiber during the firing. There was no fiber caught in the
> screens.
>
> You may view the design by scrolling halfway down the page at:
>
> http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org/mustreads/shinofire.asp
>
> Cheers, Hank in Eugene
>
> On Jan 17, 2006, at 7:50 AM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
>
> > My understanding is that the fiber coating rigidizer is intended
to
> > reduce release of fiber dust, which is NOT good stuff to breath.
My
> > recollection is that Elsbeth Woody (who I met a number of times
when
> > I was making pots at the Clay Art Center, in Port Chester, NY) was
> > opposed to the use of fiber insulation because she considered it
an
> > unnecessary health hazard.
> >
> > Anyone who does use it should, at least, carefully read the
Material
> > Safty Data Sheet, for which I give a link to a PDF file:
> > http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/ThermalCeramics/201.pdf
> >
> www.murrow.biz/hank
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
>
Hank Murrow on tue 17 jan 06
On Jan 17, 2006, at 3:39 PM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> Hank,
>
> What a beautifully designed, and constructed, kiln!
>
> My guess is that for you the fiber insulation is safe to use because
> you are so thorough and careful in your work. But many potters are
> more casual and offhand in how they handle their materials. So, I
> still have doubts.......
Dear Malcolm;
Thanks for the kudos.
Ceramic fiber is often compared erroneously with Asbestos fiber.
Asbestos is very like spagetti/string cheese....... if you break it it
will come apart in ever finer threads because of its mineral nature and
crystallography, becoming so fine it passes the throat without warning.
While ceramic fiber is a de-vitrified glass, which does not fracture
along its length, but rather its cross section. So it is never a finer
particle than its diameter (some dozen times larger than a 300 mesh
particle). Thus, it presents a danger no greater than any dust
particles present in a studio....... except lead or barium, etc. I
would never endorse the use of fiber in typical brick (door, car, &
envelop) designs where abrasion is common.
Cheers & thanks,
Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 18 jan 06
Dear Joyce Lee,
Thank you for your message relayed to me by Avril. I appreciate you kind =
thought.
I agree with you. Fibre kilns are great. I have two, a commercial 1 cu =
ft bought over twenty years ago, which, except for some fretting at the =
door can still fire up to cone 10. Yes, it is showing some ageing and =
the fibres are shrinking so there are gaps at the joints.
The other I built back in 1989, a top loader. The log shows over 350 =
firings. I have just repaired it to overcomes damage caused by raising =
and lowering the lid after a couple of retaining thimbles fell away. The =
main body of the kiln is still very good but again there has been =
shrinkage. Evidence for this is in two forms; Delamination of exposed =
edges of the blanket and measurable fractures across the thickness of =
the sheet. I have no idea what the back up blanket is like because I =
have not exposed any. But the remains of the back up in the roof were =
well felted and cold have been reused.=20
My very best regards to you,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 18 jan 06
Dear Frank Colson,
Thank you for your admonition. I believe I did preface my remarks by =
suggesting that the manufacturers instructions should be followed. But I =
did not say, as you assert, that the material disintegrated during =
firing. I did say that mechanical shock could cause disintegration.
I accept that in simple terms your summation of the effects of thermal =
cycling and mechanical abuse. But I recall some years ago it being =
brought to our attention that fibres released from fibre kilns could =
cause disorders of the respiratory system. You might like to check the =
archives on this.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Frank Colson on wed 18 jan 06
Ivor- Thanks for your straight forward comments about your experiences with
ceramic fiber. Here are some out of the 9 dots usages for
this stuff. I, and others, have found ceramic fibers used by birds and
other small land creatures to partially build their nests. Ceramic fiber
board, often only 1/4" thick (really regidized), is great for making a
painting with glazes. Just fire the board to glaze melt maturity and frame
when cool! No bisquing, and also no clay needed. I have also done total
"wet firing" pots by wedging ceramic fibers into wet clay.
Glaze, and pop directly into a firing! No need to dry the clay first.
There is more to this than meets the eye, but it is a successful
experimental way to throw a pot which to go directly into a kiln when
finished! Lastly, and most obviously, expansion joints which occur from
repeated
kiln firings are simply "caulked" with scraps of ceramic fibers.
Have fun!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor and Olive Lewis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fiber kiln and rigidizer
Dear Frank Colson,
Thank you for your admonition. I believe I did preface my remarks by
suggesting that the manufacturers instructions should be followed. But I did
not say, as you assert, that the material disintegrated during firing. I did
say that mechanical shock could cause disintegration.
I accept that in simple terms your summation of the effects of thermal
cycling and mechanical abuse. But I recall some years ago it being brought
to our attention that fibres released from fibre kilns could cause disorders
of the respiratory system. You might like to check the archives on this.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 20 jan 06
Dear Frank Colson,=20
Thank you for your nine dot note.
I can back up your observation about Ceramic Fibre being used by other =
creatures. From time to time we get plagues of mice, I mean thousands ! =
!. They managed to burrow into the walls of my kiln and provide =
passages where extra air could foil my attempts to get good reduction. I =
know "Mouse Holes" are a feature of the design of some styles of kiln =
but this time the feature was unneeded and for real.
I'm sure there will be people who will find your other suggestions =
challenging. Although paper clay has been around for over a century and =
D. Rhodes used fibre glass there may be some who would like to use =
ceramic fibre and clay as a sculptural medium. Soaked in porcelain slip =
it could be useful addition for artistic creativity.
Thanks for the conversation,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Frank Colson on fri 20 jan 06
Good stories, Ivor! Let's keep them rolling in! What do you think KING
KONG would do with the stuff?
Frank-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor and Olive Lewis"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Fiber kiln and rigidizer
Dear Frank Colson,
Thank you for your nine dot note.
I can back up your observation about Ceramic Fibre being used by other
creatures. From time to time we get plagues of mice, I mean thousands ! !.
They managed to burrow into the walls of my kiln and provide passages where
extra air could foil my attempts to get good reduction. I know "Mouse Holes"
are a feature of the design of some styles of kiln but this time the feature
was unneeded and for real.
I'm sure there will be people who will find your other suggestions
challenging. Although paper clay has been around for over a century and D.
Rhodes used fibre glass there may be some who would like to use ceramic
fibre and clay as a sculptural medium. Soaked in porcelain slip it could be
useful addition for artistic creativity.
Thanks for the conversation,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
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