mel jacobson on thu 26 jan 06
the primary cause of destruction
of a spray on itc kiln used for salt
is the migration of the salt between the
cracks...it then gets behind the itc
coating and eats away the kiln.
(it started in our salt kiln with itc after
about 35 firings.)
nils lou has been working with dipping
the entire ifb in itc.
that way, you get complete protection
of the brick.
it is all about saving huge amounts of
money. hard brick kilns take about three
times the of fuel of a soft brick kiln.
the money saved in using itc to coat the
brick vs. fuel is a multi fold saving over years
of production.
i have always stated that people (potters) will
shrink at using anything that is new...yet will
spend thousands of dollars on fuel. does not
factor with me.
fuel costs are real. we have to figure out better
ways of firing. both for economy and ecology.
as i have said here many times....we have folks
that would almost faint over the waste of one soda can,
but send millions of btu's up their smoke stack.
does not make sense to me.
i am always looking at better ways to fire, save fuel
and be efficient. hard brick kilns are things of the past.
they waste fuel. we have to get a handle on the use
of fiber and itc for salt kilns. so far, it is the best way.
and, i, we/haycreek/nils has done a great deal of real
research. hundreds of test brick, itc, fiber, and much
more. real firings. not test firings.
our fiber module roof and door at our farm salt kiln
is as good as new. hundreds of firings. the soft brick
is still fine, but has erosion around the edges. the flame
way was destroyed...we re/built with hard brick. just four
bricks high. without question, the flame way gets the biggest
hit with salt. and, the most heat. so that went early.
using spiral pipe, kaowool liners soaked in itc seems to me
to be the best chimney i have ever seen. tight as a drum head.
and, i am convinced it will last for years and years...safe and
sound. and to me, the big factor in chimneys...is tight.
no passive dampening.
one of the things i find most negligent
when i go out and help people with kilns is bad chimneys.
hard brick without mortar, holes all over, leaks galore.
kiln stalls. they fire for hours and years with a stalled kiln.
thousands of dollars in fuel. of course when it stalls, they
all do the same thing...turn up the fuel. just more waste.
oh well, i can only take care of my kilns.
and they work well, and i save the money.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://my.pclink.com/~melpots3
Tom Wirt on fri 27 jan 06
Mel...
With our flattop at over 800 firings (one lid rebuild after the fire dept
hosed the original one down at full temp)the brickss have, on the hot face,
opened up quite a bit. I've been pondering slathering it with ITC mortar
and sticking in a thin (maybe 1/2 inch)fiber boards "lining". Maybe
somethiing like this might work on a salt/soda kiln. If the fiber was
sprayed with 100 it should be fairly impervious.
Just a thought...maybe not workable.
Tom Wirt
2ley on fri 27 jan 06
From: "Tom Wirt"
> With our flattop at over 800 firings (one lid rebuild after the fire dept
> hosed the original one down at full temp)the brickss have, on the hot
> face,
> opened up quite a bit. I've been pondering slathering it with ITC mortar
> and sticking in a thin (maybe 1/2 inch)fiber boards "lining". Maybe
> somethiing like this might work on a salt/soda kiln. If the fiber was
> sprayed with 100 it should be fairly impervious.
Along that line, would it be possible to line the kiln with refractory
paper? Or is the paper too fragile for salt?
Philip Tuley
Vince Pitelka on sat 28 jan 06
> Along that line, would it be possible to line the kiln with refractory
> paper? Or is the paper too fragile for salt?
Philip -
That's an interesting suggestion, but refractory paper is very porous. The
idea is that you need a refractory coating impervious to salt or soda fumes,
so the refractory paper would not accomplish anything unless it were
saturated with ITC. In that event, I do not know what it would do. Mel
suggests a lamination of ITC-soaked fiber as a liner for an IFB salt or soda
kiln, and I wish someone would give this a try in salt or soda. I'd love to
see a solution to this dilemma. Yes, we will pay more for fuel on our
hardbrick soda kiln, but soda firing is one of the most popular firing
processes at the Craft Center, and I really believe in the work my students
are doing. I need a reliable soda kiln, and for the time being, the most
reliable soda kiln is all hardbrick on the hotface.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
steve graber on sat 28 jan 06
i missed most of this series of discussions, but has anyone tried using the hardbrick, cut via tilte saw to maybe 1/2 inch, & 1st line a kiln surface when building with this, then back it up with the K24's or K26's?
basically a tile lined kiln (thin hard kiln brick) with the soft brick behind it. that seems like a decent sturdy approach. i can't imagine liquid "skinning" methods coming close to matching this.
isn't this a surface hardness issue? final hardness of hard brick being a rohr's hardness #6 or so, with ITC & others schemes being 5 or less?
see ya
steve
Vince Pitelka wrote: > Along that line, would it be possible to line the kiln with refractory
> paper? Or is the paper too fragile for salt?
Philip -
That's an interesting suggestion, but refractory paper is very porous. The
idea is that you need a refractory coating impervious to salt or soda fumes,
so the refractory paper would not accomplish anything unless it were
saturated with ITC. In that event, I do not know what it would do. Mel
suggests a lamination of ITC-soaked fiber as a liner for an IFB salt or soda
kiln, and I wish someone would give this a try in salt or soda. I'd love to
see a solution to this dilemma. Yes, we will pay more for fuel on our
hardbrick soda kiln, but soda firing is one of the most popular firing
processes at the Craft Center, and I really believe in the work my students
are doing. I need a reliable soda kiln, and for the time being, the most
reliable soda kiln is all hardbrick on the hotface.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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Hank Murrow on sat 28 jan 06
On Jan 28, 2006, at 6:50 AM, steve graber wrote:
> i missed most of this series of discussions, but has anyone tried
> using the hardbrick, cut via tilte saw to maybe 1/2 inch, & 1st line a
> kiln surface when building with this, then back it up with the K24's
> or K26's?
>
> basically a tile lined kiln (thin hard kiln brick) with the soft
> brick behind it. that seems like a decent sturdy approach. i can't
> imagine liquid "skinning" methods coming close to matching this.
>
> isn't this a surface hardness issue? final hardness of hard brick
> being a rohr's hardness #6 or so, with ITC & others schemes being 5 or
> less?
An interesting idea, Steve, and I have a further suggestion. Why not
cast wall panel(s) with a silicon carbide re-inforced castable like
Pryor Gigge's Flo-Cast 30S and back it up with 6" of fiber? This
castable if done in a mold that is smoooooooooth surfaced, with last a
very long time, and it can be cast to 3/4" in thickness if re-inforced
with s.s.wire. And the ports etc, can be easily cast into the material.
I am busy investigating this construction, but in Eugene it is hard to
get 100 fires on a sample. Maybe I will cast another 12" x 12" panel
for Vince to run through the soda kiln at ACC. We need reps!
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
2ley on sat 28 jan 06
From: "Vince Pitelka"
>> Along that line, would it be possible to line the kiln with refractory
>> paper? Or is the paper too fragile for salt?
>
> Philip -
> That's an interesting suggestion, but refractory paper is very porous.
SNIP
>. Mel
> suggests a lamination of ITC-soaked fiber as a liner for an IFB salt or
> soda
> kiln, and I wish someone would give this a try in salt or soda. I'd love
> to
> see a solution to this dilemma.
Unfortunately I can't, right now. My current firings are all electric at
low temperature, or raku, or sawdust.
My mentor, however, is building a salt kiln, and I'll see if he's interested
in the idea. If not, once I start high-firing I could possibly build a
saggar, line it with paper soaked in ITC, and do salting in it. That might
at least give us an idea. It'll be at least late spring before this
happens.
Philip Tuley
steve graber on sat 28 jan 06
i was thinking too of a kiln designed for replaceable inner walls. ~ but this might make sense for a smaller kiln rather then a big kiln. and slide out features for removing an exposed wall will likely get clogged from multipul firings. unless a sacrificial material is put over slide pocket features for protection. smack away this extra stuff to get to the slide out panels for replacement.
still sounds like a big project replacing walls though....
just curious. i have a bunch of K24's left over from my main kiln, and corner of my area available for a small soda-salt kiln. the idea of a kiln within a kiln might be a useful approach. protech one from the other & make the inner one easy to pull apart & replace. a big sagar!
i haven't reviewed the issue of kiln wear. i guess i better stay tuned... sorry i missed prior posts.
see ya
steve
Hank Murrow wrote: On Jan 28, 2006, at 6:50 AM, steve graber wrote:
> i missed most of this series of discussions, but has anyone tried
> using the hardbrick, cut via tilte saw to maybe 1/2 inch, & 1st line a
> kiln surface when building with this, then back it up with the K24's
> or K26's?
>
> basically a tile lined kiln (thin hard kiln brick) with the soft
> brick behind it. that seems like a decent sturdy approach. i can't
> imagine liquid "skinning" methods coming close to matching this.
>
> isn't this a surface hardness issue? final hardness of hard brick
> being a rohr's hardness #6 or so, with ITC & others schemes being 5 or
> less?
An interesting idea, Steve, and I have a further suggestion. Why not
cast wall panel(s) with a silicon carbide re-inforced castable like
Pryor Gigge's Flo-Cast 30S and back it up with 6" of fiber? This
castable if done in a mold that is smoooooooooth surfaced, with last a
very long time, and it can be cast to 3/4" in thickness if re-inforced
with s.s.wire. And the ports etc, can be easily cast into the material.
I am busy investigating this construction, but in Eugene it is hard to
get 100 fires on a sample. Maybe I will cast another 12" x 12" panel
for Vince to run through the soda kiln at ACC. We need reps!
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
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Hank Murrow on sat 28 jan 06
On Jan 28, 2006, at 10:18 AM, steve graber wrote:
> i was thinking too of a kiln designed for replaceable inner walls. ~
> but this might make sense for a smaller kiln rather then a big kiln.
Dear Steve;
I have cast a thin panel of Flo-cast 30S 36" high x 31" wide.
> a big sagar!
Castable would be perfect for a saggar within the kiln. Could even cast
in 'wells' to place the salt in.
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 29 jan 06
Dear Steve Graber ,
This is question about Chemical Resistance at high temperature, about =
corrosive atmospheres that can flux most ceramic materials. It is an =
atmosphere that can turn Silicon Dioxide, Aluminium Oxide and Iron Oxide =
into a gases..
I have a Salt Glaze Kiln. The lining is 40% Alumina hard fire brick, =
more or less 40% Alumina, 60% Kaolin. Backup is No 26 firebrick. Any old =
firebrick will not do. Many firebrick compositions have a very high =
percentage of free Silica in their composition. We all know what the =
text books say about the reason for clay taking a glaze in Salt and =
Soda.
Without some reasonable data, compositions and so on, most conclusions =
we uninitiated might draw about what might or might not be about =
protective thermal coatings and their ability to prevent high =
temperature corrosion are speculative and probably erroneous.
Best regards,
Ivor
Lee Love on sun 29 jan 06
Has anybody attempted to line a softbrick kiln with tiles?
As far as efficency goes, Maybe the last chamber of a multi-chambered
kiln makes sense?
--
李 Lee Love 大
愛 鱗
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft
"The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us. Everything.
The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not, but in who knows
it and who don't."
--Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
Hank Murrow on mon 30 jan 06
On Jan 28, 2006, at 10:45 PM, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
> Dear Steve Graber ,
>
> This is question about Chemical Resistance at high temperature,
> I have a Salt Glaze Kiln. Any old firebrick will not do. Many
> firebrick compositions have a very high percentage of free Silica in
> their composition. We all know what the text books say about the
> reason for clay taking a glaze in Salt and Soda.
Dear Ivor;
At the University of Oregon in the early 70s, a salt kiln was built
from high Silica brick(90% or so). The salt quickly built up a rich
light green glaze on the brick and once that glaze was established, the
kiln remained stable and functioning for hundreds of fires. What killed
it was molten salt running down into the cracks in the brickwork,
cooling, and eventually causing the foundation to creep outwards. When
it was taken down, we found that there was no melting of the brick past
the hotface. Another approach.........
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 31 jan 06
Dear Hank Murrow,=20
For some years I serviced heavy industry for Wall Comonoy Corporation, a =
Detroit crowd, promoting their hard surfacing alloys.One successful =
application was the hardsurfacing of extrusion dies for Sewer Pipe =
production. So I had a chance to get inside a few industrial kilns. In =
fact the first salt glazed work I ever made was fired in an old beehive =
kiln.
Many of these kilns were built from Pickfords Ganister Brick, almost =
pure quartzite. As you say, the walls become a superb soda glass. The =
tell tale sign that repairs were immanent was an increasing incidence of =
"Snotters", blobs of stuff that dropped onto the ware. Their annual =
holiday was a time to let the kilns cool then jackhammer the bad places =
out and patch the kilns up.
Best regards,
Ivor
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