2ley on thu 9 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Lee,
What am I missing here? If the pottery shop was set up in America in
1738, but the Meissen Porcelain Manufactory was set up in 1710, how is it
that porcelain was created in America first? Was the Meissen shop not using
porcelain?
Philip Tuley
tres confuzzled
From: "Lee Love"
> Porcelain was created in America before it was in Europe. This is from
> Louise Corts article in The Log Book, here article on the history of
> woodfiring in America:
>
> "The use of high-temperature clays from the interior mountains began
> with the first European potter to set up shop in the new colony of
> Georgia, around 1738. He experimented with porcelain, using the local
> Georgia kaolin that is still a mainstay of American studio potters.
> Although his use of kaolin predated that in Europe, it did not develop
> into a commercially successful product."
>
> Wedgewood later had large amount of this kaolin imported to make their
> work.
>
> Corts article also says that folks think the Carolina Alkaline glaze was
> derived from Chinese celadon recipes that were in the journals of the
> French Jesuit priest, Pere d'Entrecoles, that was published in England
> in the 1730s. Did a Google and found him at Ceramics Today:
>
> The Letters of Pere d'Entrecolles
> Being the first detailed accounts on the manufacture of Chinese
> porcelain to reach the Occident.
> P?re Francois Xavier d'Entrecolles lived from 1664 to 1741. He was a
> Jesuit missionary who traveled to China in 1698, where he studied some
> of the secrets of porcelain manufacture. His letters, written in 1712
> and 1722 were amongst the first accounts available in the West on
> Chinese porcelain and helped to fuel the European craze for porcelain
> and the search for the 'Arcanum', or the ‘secret’ formula for porcelain.
> According to some sources, d'Entrecolles inadvertently mixed up the
> names of the clays, probably swapping the proportions of kaolin and
> petuntse - surely a minor error!
> Unknown to d'Entrecolles, B?ttger had already unraveled the secret of
> porcelain manufacture, leading to the establishment of the Meissen
> Porcelain Manufactory in 1710.
>
> If you go here, you can read his actual letters (haven't read them yet,
> but they look interesting!):
>
> http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/entrecolles.htm
>
> --
> Lee Love
> in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
> http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
>
> "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
>
> --Leonardo da Vinci
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
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skiasonaranthropos@FSMAIL.NET on fri 10 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Lee,
Perhaps before trying to revise history you may like to consider:
1. =93Wedgewood later had large amount of this kaolin imported to make their=
work=94
Wedgewood and Wedgwood were two very separate manufacturers in The English
Potteries, and it was the latter who imported kaolin from Carolina before
he extensively used the famous Cornish materials
2. "Porcelain was created in America before it was in Europe ... The use of
high-temperature clays from the interior mountains began with the first
European potter to set up shop in the new colony of Georgia, around 1738.=94=
The two individuals credited with the first European porcelain, there is
debate over their respective contributions, had both died before 1738
Regards,
Antony
Linda Ferzoco on fri 10 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
This is very interesting Lee. It makes me wonder why,
why didn't the use of kaolin here evolve into
something like that which was made in Europe?
It would be great to see examples of those early
pieces.
Perhaps you need a market of royalty and their
hangers-on to make Meissen-type porcelain viable and
the US certainly didn't have enough of those in those
days.
Cheers,
Linda Ferzoco
lindaferzoco at yahoo.com
--- Lee Love wrote:
> Porcelain was created in America before it was in
> Europe. This is from
> Louise Corts article in The Log Book, here article
> on the history of
> woodfiring in America:
>
> "The use of high-temperature clays from the interior
> mountains began
> with the first European potter to set up shop in the
> new colony of
> Georgia, around 1738. He experimented with
> porcelain, using the local
> Georgia kaolin that is still a mainstay of American
> studio potters.
> Although his use of kaolin predated that in Europe,
> it did not develop
> into a commercially successful product."
>
> Wedgewood later had large amount of this kaolin
> imported to make their work.
>
> Corts article also says that folks think the
> Carolina Alkaline glaze was
> derived from Chinese celadon recipes that were in
> the journals of the
> French Jesuit priest, Pere d'Entrecoles, that was
> published in England
> in the 1730s. Did a Google and found him at Ceramics
> Today:
>
> The Letters of Pere d'Entrecolles
> Being the first detailed accounts on the manufacture
> of Chinese
> porcelain to reach the Occident.
> P?re Francois Xavier d'Entrecolles lived from 1664
> to 1741. He was a
> Jesuit missionary who traveled to China in 1698,
> where he studied some
> of the secrets of porcelain manufacture. His
> letters, written in 1712
> and 1722 were amongst the first accounts available
> in the West on
> Chinese porcelain and helped to fuel the European
> craze for porcelain
> and the search for the 'Arcanum', or the ‘secret’
> formula for porcelain.
> According to some sources, d'Entrecolles
> inadvertently mixed up the
> names of the clays, probably swapping the
> proportions of kaolin and
> petuntse - surely a minor error!
> Unknown to d'Entrecolles, B?ttger had already
> unraveled the secret of
> porcelain manufacture, leading to the establishment
> of the Meissen
> Porcelain Manufactory in 1710.
>
> If you go here, you can read his actual letters
> (haven't read them yet,
> but they look interesting!):
>
>
http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/entrecolles.htm
>
> --
> Lee Love
> in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
> http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
>
> "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
>
> --Leonardo da Vinci
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Lee Love on sat 11 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:00:10 -0800, Linda Ferzoco
wrote:
>This is very interesting Lee. It makes me wonder why,
>why didn't the use of kaolin here evolve into
>something like that which was made in Europe?
Hi Linda,
There was a little bragging and State pride going on in the claim of
first porcelain. I think there was experiments before the big true
porcelain factories got started in Europe, but the Georgia colonialists
didn't have the economy or enough wealthy people to make it commmercially.
Our first factories were on the East coast.
The European porcelain factories were controlled by Imperial decree.
The alchemist who figured out the first true porcelain in Europe, Johann
Freidrich Bottger, got in trouble trying to sell the secret.
The Georgia kaolin mines closed after the european factories
stopped using American kaolin. It is interesting enough that the first
European porcelains were made with American clay. Today, most Georgia
kaolin is used to make paper.
Actually, I found the origins of the first American alkaline glazes
coming from a Priest's notes on Chinese glazes more facinating, especially
with the original letters available to read. Check them out!
http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/entrecolles.htm
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"Human subtelty will never devise an invention more beautiful,
more simple or more direct than does Nature,
because in her inventions, nothing is lacking and nothing is superfluous."
--Leonardo da Vinci
Rick Hamelin on sat 11 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Several months ago someone on Clayart questioned why pottery making was made illegal during the period shown at Colonial Williamsburg. This person was told that the English potteries were protecting their interest and the good King passed such a law. I haven't been able to confirm this and I wonder if the Georgian porcelain experiment was put down by the powers that be.
I would like to know more of this pottery and the ethnicity of this porcelain potter. Not one of my many books on American pottery history made reference to this fellow. I cannot see someone just deciding to create porcelain at that time, without work and technical experience gained at the Italian, French soft paste potteries or with Bottger. And to have access to the Letters with the understanding of them is beyond comprehension, not to mention the error of naming the materials. Stoneware isn't even a production item in Georgia at that time, so why start up a porcelain enterprise?
Here in Massts, a kaolin pit was dug prior to the Rev War for the purpose of supplying wig dust and kaolin to be mixed with grease to make a paint like coating for leather belts. Kaolin had other commercial uses in the 18th century. And, curiously enough, it takes about 430 pounds of kaolin to make a ton of glossy magazine paper.
Rick
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
Laurel Carey on sat 11 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
On Feb 11, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Rick Hamelin wrote:
(snip)
> Kaolin had other commercial uses in the 18th century. And, curiously
> enough, it takes about 430 pounds of kaolin to make a ton of glossy
> magazine paper.
I have a friend who picks up the recycling, and one day he was
wondering why a box of the magazines weighs so much more than a box of
regular paper. I told him the clay content was what made it shiny, and
also heavier.
He said, "You mean I'm not just picking up paper, I'm picking up
*rocks* too??", in a tone of outrage. ;-)
Laurel
skiasonaranthropos@FSMAIL.NET on mon 13 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Lee,
A number of posts have noted the attribution of porcelain manufacturer in
America predating European is mistaken. Could you give references to
support your subsequent claims, some of which were rather simplified
1. =93I think there was experiments before the big true porcelain factories
got started in Europe=94 Is this anything other than unsubstantiated opinion=
?
2. =93The European porcelain factories were controlled by Imperial decree.=94=
Whilst Royal support and warrants were important to some of the early
European manufacturers this was not true for all. One of the very first to
produce porcelain in England was William Cookworthy in the 1740s, and did
so without any royal patronage
3. =93It is interesting enough that the first European porcelains were made
with American clay=94 Are you sure? Can you provide evidence? Supply from
Czech, French or German deposits seems much more probably, with the latter
the most likely not least as those in Saxony were discovered before 1710.
Virginian clay was known in England in the C18th but i) Despite being
offered some William Cookworthy choose to use Cornish material from
Tregonning Hill, and ii) Josiah Wedgwood=92s initial use of the American
kaolin was forced by Cookworthy=92s strict patent of the English material,
however after this was later successfully challenged in the House of
Commons the supply came open to all
Regards,
Antony
Rick Hamelin on mon 13 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Antony,
I believe that a simple error of associating the use of white clay with making early porcelain is what is at fault. As Mel discussed, porcelain is what is most prominant in our preferences and mind set, so someone hearing of an early potter using white clay would immediately associate it to porcelain manufacture. Who but collectors and ceramic historians have heard of White Saltglaze Stoneware for instance? It is certainly not part of our dinnertable discussions so I assume that this connection would neve be made.
Many of so called scholarly redware books are replete with errors. Two or three instruct the collector that a large paddle or "beater" was used to hammer the slip trailed decoration onto or into the plates after the slip was poured. They consistantly state that all earthenware green glazes are copper and mention nothing about reduced iron greens and if it is a black brush mark on the pot, it is always manganese, never mentioning anything about iron.
People believe what they wish to believe, especially when they have limited knowledge. Folks argue about how wonderful life was in the early days and don't recall that their wonderfully utopian and openminded beliefs for that period are countered with facts such that good christian Roger Williams was banished from Massts or that in fact barter had a cash value to relieve debt and that helping thy neighbor was really quite the rarity. (Read Chris Clark's The Roots of Rural Capitalism.)
Hell, as shocking as it seems, selective history is being written as we discuss this.
Rick
--
"Many a wiser men than I hath
gone to pot." 1649
skiasonaranthropos@FSMAIL.NET on tue 14 feb 06
In America before Europe. 1st "Chinese" Glaze in America.
Hello Rick,
I think there is a lot of truth in your statement =93People believe what the=
y
wish to believe, especially when they have limited knowledge=94 There are
still so many that voice that studio pottery did not exist before Bernard
Leach!
Regards,
Antony
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