John Britt on sun 19 feb 06
Chuck,
Sorry to hear you are slightly perturbed!
Before you get too bent out of shape explain something to me. Why is it
that, of the millions of recipes on the planet earth, there are only about
10 recipes that cannot be posted on clayart, (the ones in Ron and John=92s
book)?
This is not Ron and John=92s shameless self-promotion website. If it were, I=
would understand it. This is a not-for-profit Listserve where people share
information and ideas on clay. Participants donate their time to help
potters in need and to talk about all things pottery. The fact that Ron
and John=92s recipes have not already been posted is evidence that courtesy
still exists in America.
I agree that there is more to mixing up glazes than formulas (recipes) but
so what? Does that mean that we should not share recipes? I am going to
take a wild guess that everyone in pottery, including John and Ron,
started their ceramics career (hobby) by getting recipes from someone, a
magazine, book or art center=92s glaze bucket.
What if everyone said that we can=92t share recipes unless you pay $45.00 to=
buy these 10 recipes because there is more to making glazes than mixing up
recipes? This is ridiculous!
Recipes should not be kept in cages! Free all recipes!
What if everyone who wanted to make a brownie had to buy Martha Stewart=92s
cookbook? We all know that there is more to making a brownie than just the
recipe!
There is no copyright on recipes. If you want to share them with others,
then do so, if not, then don=92t publish them in a book. Also, the recipes
are in Claytimes and the only good reason John and Ron can give not to
post them on Clayart is because they want to sell more books. That is not
a good enough reason. I want to sell more books so does Ian Currie, Mel,
Vince, Steve Bramfman, etc. but do we get to restrict the discussion?
If the book is good enough people will buy it.
I agree that they have done a lot of work and we should be grateful. Fine.
Does that mean that everyone who has done a lot of work and promotes
safety should be able to limit the discussion on Clayart?
Wondering which really matters more - safety or book sales?
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery
Elizabeth Priddy on sun 19 feb 06
You should at least give them two years or so to profit off
their work before you give it away. It is kind of a courtesy.
Wait until they have optimized their sales, which will happen
during the first couple of years, and then they will be available
used (already are, by the way, for about $25). And they will
have been shared publicly by being available through the
library.
They asked people not to is why. It is that simple. And
asking for the privilege of making a profit on your work is
more than they should have to do in the first place. If you
are going to use someone's work for your own benefit,
you ought to honor their request.
By the way, do you use open source, Windows, or a
pirated copy of windows on your computer? If you are
legal, why'd you buy it when you could scam it for free?
Just let them have a year or two. Play nice.
E
John Britt wrote:
Chuck,
Sorry to hear you are slightly perturbed!
Before you get too bent out of shape explain something to me. Why is it
that, of the millions of recipes on the planet earth, there are only about
10 recipes that cannot be posted on clayart, (the ones in Ron and John’s
book)?
This is not Ron and John’s shameless self-promotion website. If it were, I
would understand it. This is a not-for-profit Listserve where people share
information and ideas on clay. Participants donate their time to help
potters in need and to talk about all things pottery. The fact that Ron
and John’s recipes have not already been posted is evidence that courtesy
still exists in America.
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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John Britt on sun 19 feb 06
Elizabeth,
I am glad to hear you are in my corner. I could not agree more.
The book was published in 2002! It is now 2006.
I have not gone against their wishes. I did not post the recipes on
clayart. But...no one ever asked that we not share the recipes. And
incidently, I am not using their work for my own benefit.
So we are in total agreement.
I do play nice,
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Elizabeth Priddy on sun 19 feb 06
Can you tell I don't mix glazes and have been kind busy
and pre-occupied for the last two years?
E
John Britt wrote:
Elizabeth,
I am glad to hear you are in my corner. I could not agree more.
The book was published in 2002! It is now 2006.
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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primalmommy on sun 19 feb 06
John Britt, having an idea is one thing -- especially when it's an idea
that involves sharing and helping other potters.
But I think your last post was just rude. Ron and John never banned
posting of recipes on clayart in order to pimp their book -- btw, have
you met these guys? Would you care to estimate how many hours they've
put into giving out FREE glaze help to potters, recalculating glazes for
people, answering "what will happen if" questions? Have you visited
John's website, where he has been walking your big talk for a long time,
giving out glaze "recipes" with photos and some assurance of their
stablitiy/testing results, saving us all the expense of having glazes
tested?
The folks who are asking for glaze information here are sometimes people
who have never mixed a glaze.
Last summer, I invited some of my guild students who have wheels and
kilns at home to share a mini-workshop in my studio, using Ron and
John's book. Like most beginners, they were used to glazes already
prepared in a bucket or bag, and had no idea about things like stability
and how to check for it, how to store glaze materials and what the
safety issues are, or how unpredictable and variable the "kiln sitter"
approach to firing can be . They don't know even the basics of weighing
out materials, silica hazards, heat work and glass formation, what glaze
materials do what and how to doctor a glaze without scraping kiln
shelves or poisoning customers.
Maybe you live in a world without beginners -- many potters do. But
before you can dip your finger in the glaze and magically tell if it's
thick enough, you need to be told how many ml of water to add.
And a lot of what the book provides is firing ramps, cooling ramps,
advice for each glaze regarding thick and thin application, this clay
and that. The slow cooled matts are really nice, and are produced by
firing method, not ingredients -- and the book also gives me guidelines
on how much colorant I can add to/subtract from each glaze when I
experiment with color, without losing the stability.
Beginners need good, current, complete information, not 1960s library
books and out-of-context clayart archive recipes with lead and barium
and no disclaimers. (Often fired in unvented basement kilns.) Don't
overestimate the experience base of people who post to clayart saying "
I want a pretty cone six blue". Even Martha Stewart's brownies suck if
you make them in a microwave oven.
Go ahead, email your recipes -- but folks shouldn't be surprised if they
don't have enough information to make it work -- or (without doing their
homework) enough information to understand why it failed and make
corrections.
Sharing glaze info is a great thing. Clayarters like Alisa and Ababi
have been doing it on clayart for a long time, without a lot of drum
beating and flag waving. I figure folks should do what they want... as
long as they can do it without dumping on somebody else.
Yours
Kelly in Ohio... hoping to steal David Hendley's recipe for wood-oven
bread so I can make it in my bread machine and then roll my eyes about
how it's not very good.
_______________________________________________________________
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John Britt on sun 19 feb 06
Kelly,
I have met Ron and John and have had many dealings with them. My last post
was not rude. I had several discussions with Ron and John on the reasoning
of not posting the recipes on clayart. It is not a slam on their character.
Unfortunately, the archives have some missing sections but I did find this:
"On Tue, 17 May 2005 15:29:17 -0400, John Hesselberth < ,
But we recognize that the glazes are going to be published on occasion
here and elsewhere and are backing off on our request to not do so. We, of
course, do hope that when it happens the book is credited.
We want to thank all the Clayart members for honoring our initial request
for as long as you have. We are convinced, that in spite of the angst it
caused on the part of some, that it was a significant factor in helping
people to be successful with the glazes. We needed to change the way
potters think about firing electric kilns and "forcing" them to read the
book to get at the recipes has helped us do that in a major way. OK, and
it probably helped sales too."
You see the "OK, and it probably helped sales too." That is the admission.
They know what they are doing.
After reading this it seems that they have "backed off their request" as
long as we credit them! Am I reading that correctly??
I am glad we had this discussion because now I see that we can post the
recipes and we don't have to post on this subject anymore! Thanks Kelly
President of the Glaze Free Trade Society
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Jim Brooks on sun 19 feb 06
Kelly i didn't see John's answer that way at all.. Oh BTW Have you met
him? Jim in Denton
Earl Brunner on sun 19 feb 06
So John, who elected you "President of the Glaze Free Trade Society" anyway? Come on, being self appointed isn't the same as being president.
I think Kelly expressed the reasoning behind the so called "ban" on the open sharing of the glaze formulas from John and Ron's book. The reasoning IS valid. But you ignored that part of her message in your reply.
Sure, we get it, you have a difference of opinion on this, any search of the archives will lay it all out for the uninformed.
But beyond that, the open sharing of information from ANY recently published book (especially on the internet) does a disservice to the author of the book. Most potters aren't rich, most potters don't work at some cushy university job to publish. Most if any royalties from books are a welcome addition to a potter's income. Other potters shouldn't diminish that work and effort. If someone wants the recipe (or any other information) from such a book without buying the book, at least let them put forth a little effort for it. There are other ways to get it and the added effort on their part will make it a more valuable experience for them.
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
President of the Glaze Free Trade Society
----- Original Message ----
From: primalmommy
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:35:15 PM
Subject: Re: Cone 6 breaking glazes (Free recipes help everyone)
The folks who are asking for glaze information here are sometimes people
who have never mixed a glaze.
Last summer, I invited some of my guild students who have wheels and
kilns at home to share a mini-workshop in my studio, using Ron and
John's book. Like most beginners, they were used to glazes already
prepared in a bucket or bag, and had no idea about things like stability
and how to check for it, how to store glaze materials and what the
safety issues are, or how unpredictable and variable the "kiln sitter"
approach to firing can be . They don't know even the basics of weighing
out materials, silica hazards, heat work and glass formation, what glaze
materials do what and how to doctor a glaze without scraping kiln
shelves or poisoning customers.
Maybe you live in a world without beginners -- many potters do. But
before you can dip your finger in the glaze and magically tell if it's
thick enough, you need to be told how many ml of water to add.
And a lot of what the book provides is firing ramps, cooling ramps,
advice for each glaze regarding thick and thin application, this clay
and that. The slow cooled matts are really nice, and are produced by
firing method, not ingredients -- and the book also gives me guidelines
on how much colorant I can add to/subtract from each glaze when I
experiment with color, without losing the stability.
Beginners need good, current, complete information, not 1960s library
books and out-of-context clayart archive recipes with lead and barium
and no disclaimers. (Often fired in unvented basement kilns.) Don't
overestimate the experience base of people who post to clayart saying "
I want a pretty cone six blue". Even Martha Stewart's brownies suck if
you make them in a microwave oven.
Go ahead, email your recipes -- but folks shouldn't be surprised if they
don't have enough information to make it work -- or (without doing their
homework) enough information to understand why it failed and make
corrections.
Sharing glaze info is a great thing. Clayarters like Alisa and Ababi
have been doing it on clayart for a long time, without a lot of drum
beating and flag waving. I figure folks should do what they want... as
long as they can do it without dumping on somebody else.
Yours
Kelly in Ohio... hoping to steal David Hendley's recipe for wood-oven
bread so I can make it in my bread machine and then roll my eyes about
how it's not very good.
John Britt on mon 20 feb 06
Earl,
You are welcome to be President if you want. The meeting is held at an
NCECA bar and you can take over. Check with the Vice-President and the
Social Chairman.
Remember you have to "Free All Imprisoned Glaze Recipes".
Can you handle it?
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Earl Brunner on mon 20 feb 06
Nope, can't handle it, and neither can you. How can one "free all imprisoned glaze recipes"? One can advocate the open exchange, but one can not force others. In a free society, one respects the rights and freedoms of others. "Free" is often thrown about without considering the consiquences.
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: John Britt
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG; Earl Brunner
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 3:53:01 AM
Subject: Re: Cone 6 breaking glazes (Free recipes help everyone)
Earl,
You are welcome to be President if you want. The meeting is held at an
NCECA bar and you can take over. Check with the Vice-President and the
Social Chairman.
Remember you have to "Free All Imprisoned Glaze Recipes".
Can you handle it?
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
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