Kanika@KANIKA.US on thu 9 mar 06
Hello clay artists,
I have made several indoor tile pieces using OSB wood to mount the =
tiles, silicone adhesive and regular sanded grout. However, I am =
thinking about submitting a tile work for a city art purchase in =
northern California, and I have a question about the appropriate =
material to mount the clay on for a freestanding outdoor sculpture. =
Since OSB wood would deteriorate fairly quickly if it gets wet, I'm =
wondering if any of you have used concrete backer board outdoors - this =
product is commonly used for tile bathrooms/showers but I wonder if it =
is a strong enough product to use outdoors. FYI: the lowest winter =
temperature in the city is generally 30 degrees and the highest summer =
temperature can reach 108 degrees.
I have looked thru the Clayart threads and found some useful information =
about using latex additives in cement "grout", using cone 6-10 clay and =
high-fire glaze or oxides for outdoor use. But I would appreciate any =
pearls of wisdom you might offer regarding this issue.
Thanks a lot.
`'*:-.,,.-:**:-.-:*:*::-.,_,.-:*'`'*:-.,,.-:*`'`'*:-.,,.-:*
ENJOY YOUR BLESSINGS!
`'*:-.,,.-:**:-.-:*:*::-.,_,.-:*'`'*:-.,,.-:*`'`'*:-.,,.-:*
Kanika
Website: www.Kanika.us
E-mail: Kanika@Kanika.us=20
Address: POB 1202, Elk Grove, CA 95759
Phone: 1-800-3KANIKA
Ingeborg Foco on fri 10 mar 06
Kanika,
I've done a number of tile installations several of them were outside in a
winter climate. I like to use good quality plywood and I "paint" West
System Epoxy on the plywood sealing all aspects prior to adhering tiles with
West System (two part) plus Micro Fibers #403.
West System Epoxy is used to build boats and is a wonderful product albeit
expensive. Over time, UV will degrade the epoxy unless it is painted. In
other words, any part that is exposed to UV must be painted with some sort
of paint.
Over 20 years ago I covered an exterior door with architectural tiles using
the West System. The door and tiles are still in place in the Pacific
Northwest without any detrimental consequences.
Presently I am making architectural hangings and while I don't have to worry
about freezing, we do have a lot of humidity and in order to allow people to
place their sculptures outdoors without warpage, I am following the above
procedure.
If you have any more questions, do contact me.
Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956
239-283-2775
Ingeborg Foco on fri 10 mar 06
Debbie,
If you put a thin coating of west epoxy on all parts of the plywood prior to
adhering any of the tiles, the plywood surface is in effect no longer
plywood but epoxy which does not allow any moisture to enter into the fibers
and expand or contract. Does that make sense? So, no you need not worry
about expansion/contraction as long as all areas are first covered with
epoxy or I should say sealed. Boats are made with West epoxy and they are
sitting in the water so I can attest to it working. It is a wonderful
product.
In addition to what Richard said about no styro foam (he is right it will
melt) you can often reuse the plastic containers once the epoxy is set and
hard. Just push on the container and you can often peel the remains out in
once piece and reuse the container. Great containers for mixing small
portions are individual yogurt containers. Use rubber gloves when you work
with it and clean up with vinegar before it hardens. Once it hardens, I
think you are out of luck.
You can get all of the supplies at West Marine or any other marine store.
West epoxy system is not owned by West Marine but by Gudgeon (sp) brothers
who made/produce the epoxy called West System. That's probably more than
you wanted to know and I have no connection except I buy a lot of their
epoxy!
Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956
239-283-2775
> Thank you for the information!
> I would be concerned about the plywood base contracting and expanding with
> temp and humidity changes.
> Have you noticed any effects from this?
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
Debbie on fri 10 mar 06
Thank you for the information!
I would be concerned about the plywood base contracting and expanding with
temp and humidity changes.
Have you noticed any effects from this?
Debbie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Ingeborg
> Foco
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:39 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Mounting tiles for outdoor sculptures
>
>
> Kanika,
>
> I've done a number of tile installations several of them were outside in a
> winter climate. I like to use good quality plywood and I "paint" West
> System Epoxy on the plywood sealing all aspects prior to adhering
> tiles with
> West System (two part) plus Micro Fibers #403.
>
> West System Epoxy is used to build boats and is a wonderful product albeit
> expensive. Over time, UV will degrade the epoxy unless it is painted. In
> other words, any part that is exposed to UV must be painted with some sort
> of paint.
>
> Over 20 years ago I covered an exterior door with architectural
> tiles using
> the West System. The door and tiles are still in place in the Pacific
> Northwest without any detrimental consequences.
>
> Presently I am making architectural hangings and while I don't
> have to worry
> about freezing, we do have a lot of humidity and in order to
> allow people to
> place their sculptures outdoors without warpage, I am following the above
> procedure.
>
> If you have any more questions, do contact me.
>
>
> Ingeborg
>
Richard White on fri 10 mar 06
I agree wholeheartedly with Ingeborg's recommendation of West expoxy. I
used it for building some wood seakayaks (bent okume plywood, stitch-and-
glue construction, was lots of fun) a few years ago. It is marvelous stuff.
I especially liked the little pump dispensers you screw onto the cans in
place of the lids. There is a small one for the activator and a large one
for the resin and the sizes are matched so that you just pump one stroke of
each and you have the proper mix of activator to resin. If you are brushing
just a small amount, one pump of each into a paper or plastic cup (no
styrofoam) and stir. If you are rolling a large surface, 5 or 10 pumps of
each and stir. No measurements of the 2 parts to struggle with, just equal
strokes of the pumps. Mix only what you can finish working with in 15
minutes and then toss the plastic cup and foam brush (or roller cover) in
the trash and pump a new batch. You must buy the pumps separately from the
jugs of resin and activator, but you keep using the same pump on the next
can of stuff. And yes, UV does degrade the epoxy over time, so it must be
painted (or varnished) with a quality UV-resistant coating.
dw
Ingeborg Foco on sat 11 mar 06
Debbie said: >> Is there a place (hopefully a manufacturer) that you or
anyone can recommend
> that I contact for more information about West System Epoxy? (Googled
> Gudgeon but it just brought up little fish) It sounds like wonderful stuff
> with lots of uses. I'm thinking it may have saved my patio cover from
being
> eaten by termites .
> Debbie
>
Debbie,
Geougeon Brothers Inc. is the manufacturer of West System Epoxy. That is
their correct spelling, sorry I didn't have it the last time. I googled
both their name and the west system and you will get all of the information
you will need. If not, contact them at their 800 number. It is really a
wonderful product and I just learned from my better half that you can also
include a UV inhibitor if you so wish. Our entire boat was made of West
Epoxy and I recall the bills from the boat builder for BARRELS of west epoxy
and the cost was astronomical. However, anything that you pay a lot for up
front, in the long run ends up being cheaper...my theory about pricing.
For me that has always been true.
Anyhow, contact the web site for further technical assistance for your
typical application and unlike me you will not need barrels of the stuff.
Isn't the web wonderful???
As for termites, well I don't know if the web system epoxy will stop them.
Down here in SW Florida they are unbelievably hungry and ferousous. I have
had them tunnel thru to eat newspaper. Maybe because so many of us have
concrete block buildings the little suckers are just starving to death.
Best Wishes,
Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956
239-283-2775
Debbie on sat 11 mar 06
Thank you Ingeborg and all, great information and much appreciated.
I live in an environment where the temperature will vary from below just
freezing to 115 f so my concern was wood expansion due more to temperature
fluctuations than to absorbing moisture and warping. I have seen ceramic
tiles crack when fastened directly to wood due to expansion caused by
ambient temperature changes. But now I wonder if the new silicon adhesives
would prevent that?
I'm working on tile and or stone covered pedestals for out door sculpture so
durability and longevity are of great concern. The idea to use some thing
other than traditional masonry construction came about in an attempt to
create something relatively portable for shows but still able to withstand
many decades of out door use in any climate.
Is there a place (hopefully a manufacturer) that you or anyone can recommend
that I contact for more information about West System Epoxy? (Googled
Gudgeon but it just brought up little fish) It sounds like wonderful stuff
with lots of uses. I'm thinking it may have saved my patio cover from being
eaten by termites .
Debbie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Ingeborg
> Foco
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 6:56 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Mounting tiles for outdoor sculptures
>
>
> Debbie,
>
> If you put a thin coating of west epoxy on all parts of the
> plywood prior to
> adhering any of the tiles, the plywood surface is in effect no longer
> plywood but epoxy which does not allow any moisture to enter into
> the fibers
> and expand or contract. Does that make sense? So, no you need not worry
> about expansion/contraction as long as all areas are first covered with
> epoxy or I should say sealed. Boats are made with West epoxy and they are
> sitting in the water so I can attest to it working. It is a wonderful
> product.
>
> In addition to what Richard said about no styro foam (he is right it will
> melt) you can often reuse the plastic containers once the epoxy is set and
> hard. Just push on the container and you can often peel the
> remains out in
> once piece and reuse the container. Great containers for mixing small
> portions are individual yogurt containers. Use rubber gloves
> when you work
> with it and clean up with vinegar before it hardens. Once it hardens, I
> think you are out of luck.
>
> You can get all of the supplies at West Marine or any other marine store.
> West epoxy system is not owned by West Marine but by Gudgeon (sp) brothers
> who made/produce the epoxy called West System. That's probably more than
> you wanted to know and I have no connection except I buy a lot of their
> epoxy!
>
> Ingeborg
> the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
> P.O. Box 510
> 3058 Stringfellow Road
> St. James City, Florida 33956
>
> 239-283-2775
>
>
Richard White on mon 13 mar 06
Debbie, I'm going to jump back in here with suggestions based on my
woodworking experiences, which predate my clay work by about 3 decades.
However, most of what I am about to say is largely theoretic, as I have no
direct experience mixing clay and wood work in the outdoor environment.
Anybody who knows better is welcome to contradict me.
Wood is extremely stable with regard to temperature. For reference purposes
from a building trades document, wood has a temperature coefficient of
linear expansion around 3 (*10 ^-6 per degree F...) depending on species,
very slightly lower with the grain than across the grain. Glass is in the 3-
5 range (again depending on type of glass), brick is 3, cement and concrete
are in the 6-8 range, most common metals are in the 5-15 range, and
plastics are in the 30-60 range. Ceramic tile, per se, wasn't listed but
brick might be close enough? So the tiles and the wood backer are probably
going to react to the temperature change about the same.
Where wood fails in the stability tests is with regard to moisture and
humidity. Humidity has a huge effect on wood, particularly across the
grain. A 30" wide table top can swell as much as 3/8" in width due to the
summer humidity vs. winter dry forced air heat, while length doesn't change
as much. Most failures of furniture joints are due to improper accomodation
of the wood movement due to humidity changes. Modern plywood addresses this
with the crosswise laminations to restrain the movement somewhat in the
plane of the board, but the thickness of the board is still subject to
expansion. Other engineered wood products use various resins to bind
assorted shredded fibers (whether fine sawdust for MDF, coarse sawdust for
particle board, or flakes and chips of various size for OSB, etc...) into a
pressed panel. However, the use of plastic resins, while solving the
moisture problem, takes you right back to the temperature problem - refer
above to the temperature COE of plastics being an order of magnitude
greater than the wood...
So, what's a bear to do, Pooh asked Eeyore? A thorough epoxy coating on a
quality marine plywood (marine-grade plywood has better glue holding the
veneers together...) should seal the sheet against moisture penetration,
and then the wood and tile should react to temperature about the same. You
might consider using one of the silicone adhesives to mount the tiles to
the backer to allow some differential movement, and then perhaps use one of
the 2-part urethane caulks typically used for pointing stone panels on
building facades instead of grout between the tiles. Admittedly, some of
this is very untraditional for ceramic work, but why not if it works...
And in the end, this advice may be worth exactly what you paid for it... ;-)
dw
Stephani Stephenson on mon 13 mar 06
Debbie
the old way of 'mudding ' adapted to today's materials is pretty good.
a solid layer of mortar, often with an epoxy component completely
coats the substrate under the tile
This is crucial.
you want to prevent moisture from entering the tile from the back (or
the sides ,or the surface.)
moisture wicking from the back is often the cause of damage to exterior
work.
I am also somewhat leery of using plywood substrate.
thinset or quickset ,
grouted with sanded grout for wide gap joints for me.
if you are setting to a substrate
for some history and pointers you can go to
http://www.johnbridge.com/ceramic-tile-setting.htm
Much of this discusses tiling showers rather than outdoor sculpture,
but will help introduce some of the materials and methods.
There are also some new materials and advances being tested using
silicone products...
Stephani Stephenson
steph@revivaltileworks.com
http://www.revivaltileworks.com
Debbie on tue 14 mar 06
DW,
Valuable information, thank you very much!
I'll tell you why I've been directed away from wood. Maybe we need to look
deeper to understand the forces at play here.
One of my sculptor instructors during lecture on mounting ceramic pieces to
wood bases related an experience where a sculpture had some how lost it's
base. The owners, not knowing any better, took the very expensive work to a
wood worker rather than back to the artist. The wood worker, not knowing any
better, routed a shallow groove into a (oak or walnut) base and snugly set
the bottom rim of the sculpture into it (I don't recall if any adhesive was
used). After time, the owners of this piece did return it to the artist, in
shards! The expansion/ contraction of the wood base however slight had been
enough to fracture the ceramic sculpture. I've not experimented with this
idea personally but I know the story is accurate.
Thanks again for all the ideas and information (everyone), Debbie
> Subject: Re: Mounting tiles for outdoor sculptures
>
>
> Debbie, I'm going to jump back in here with suggestions based on my
> woodworking experiences, which predate my clay work by about 3 decades.
> However, most of what I am about to say is largely theoretic, as I have no
> direct experience mixing clay and wood work in the outdoor environment.
> Anybody who knows better is welcome to contradict me.
>
> Wood is extremely stable with regard to temperature. For
> reference purposes
> from a building trades document, wood has a temperature coefficient of
> linear expansion around 3 (*10 ^-6 per degree F...) depending on species,
> very slightly lower with the grain than across the grain. Glass
> is in the 3-
> 5 range (again depending on type of glass), brick is 3, cement
> and concrete
> are in the 6-8 range, most common metals are in the 5-15 range, and
> plastics are in the 30-60 range. Ceramic tile, per se, wasn't listed but
> brick might be close enough? So the tiles and the wood backer are probably
> going to react to the temperature change about the same.
>
> Where wood fails in the stability tests is with regard to moisture and
> humidity. Humidity has a huge effect on wood, particularly across the
> grain. A 30" wide table top can swell as much as 3/8" in width due to the
> summer humidity vs. winter dry forced air heat, while length
> doesn't change
> as much. Most failures of furniture joints are due to improper
> accomodation
> of the wood movement due to humidity changes. Modern plywood
> addresses this
> with the crosswise laminations to restrain the movement somewhat in the
> plane of the board, but the thickness of the board is still subject to
> expansion. Other engineered wood products use various resins to bind
> assorted shredded fibers (whether fine sawdust for MDF, coarse sawdust for
> particle board, or flakes and chips of various size for OSB,
> etc...) into a
> pressed panel. However, the use of plastic resins, while solving the
> moisture problem, takes you right back to the temperature problem - refer
> above to the temperature COE of plastics being an order of magnitude
> greater than the wood...
>
> So, what's a bear to do, Pooh asked Eeyore? A thorough epoxy coating on a
> quality marine plywood (marine-grade plywood has better glue holding the
> veneers together...) should seal the sheet against moisture penetration,
> and then the wood and tile should react to temperature about the same. You
> might consider using one of the silicone adhesives to mount the tiles to
> the backer to allow some differential movement, and then perhaps
> use one of
> the 2-part urethane caulks typically used for pointing stone panels on
> building facades instead of grout between the tiles. Admittedly, some of
> this is very untraditional for ceramic work, but why not if it works...
>
> And in the end, this advice may be worth exactly what you paid
> for it... ;-)
>
> dw
> >
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