Ezeh Jeff on sat 1 apr 06
Address: 19 Phillips Road, Marnhull, Dorset, DT10 1LF
Tel: 01258 829535
Availability: Sell work through workshop (open by appointment 01258-820535), craft fairs and selected galleries.
Email address: judyb@megbob8msn.freeserve.co.uk
Please sir
i wish to know wether you have any knowledge on using kerosene and compressed air(atomization) in firing an oil kiln?
I have done a little experiment with some of the informations i just obtained locally and it worked some how but am afraid when i studied some related information online and saw that it has some defaults and i wish to obtaine more inforamtion from you urgently hence to avoid lost of lifes while experimenting my new system of firing.
My below experiment went this way,
I brought a 13kg cylinder that i use to buy my natural cooking gas and flush out the remaining natural gas and then filled it with 3littres of kerosene and then pump in some volume of of unkown psi air from a road side tyre tube air operator then i carried it back to my studio and i had already, a kerosene type of burner which i heated up to about 150 to 250 dgeree centigrade and the brass tube was also heated too and then a opened my cylinder from the knob the cylinder had already the kerosene and the compreesed air and immediately there was a strong blue fire coming out from the small pin hole on the kerosene burner but after about 1hour thirty minutes, a found out that the pressure of the air was getting down and the blue fire
(smokeless and atimes invisible fire while looking with naked eye) was also turning to yellow fire which then came out with smoke and was not good enough for my studio ceramic glazing or melting my hubby glass mouth blowing.
I wish to ask you wether there could br problem by this below development i had gone ahead to try, below is what i intent doing by next week
Because i need constant air pressure in my cylinders, i have gone ahead and connected about four empty cylinders 50kg each to my new electrical air compressure that has trip off mechanism and safty valve and some plumbing and welding works were also done, such like inter connecting the four cylinders to each other and fixed them to the discharching cylinder and this discharching cylinder was also opened on top of the cylinder for the kerosene inlet whci is properly closed with air tight covers and then i fixed the air inlet pipe from my compressor and then on the bottom of the cylinder i opened a hole about 3inches high from the bottom of the cylinder hence to prevent residues not to block my kerosene firing hole which is so small
Please i wish to know wether there could be any harzard to this attempt as in any explosion as while i was cutting the discharching clylinders for the kerosene inlet there was some material of the cylinder that went inside the cylinder that i was unable to bring out
Thanks and I wish to hear from you and i wish to inform you that if this finally works out well then it could be cheaper than electric kiln and i will be ordering cylinders from your company.
Am waiting for your good contributions and if there is a web site that you know that i may read more of the system above , please kindly let me informed
Yours potential customer/friend
Jeff
n.b
i only need your piece of advice and you are not in any reason involved from any danger if any that may occure in my experiments.Please my real fear is wether there would burst when i pour in kerosene in the clylinder and then fix up the compressed air in the same cylinder through my compressor that has trip oof and safty valve.
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Helen Bates on sat 1 apr 06
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Replace nelbanell with yelbanell when replying to this post.
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Kerosene (Paraffin) kilns
You may be able to discuss your ideas with some of the following people:
Richard Milgrim (Hiyoshi, Kyoto, Japan, and Concord, Massachussete, USA)
http://www.teaceramics.com/
http://www.teaceramics.com/html/kilns_15.html
(Page has a photo of R.M.'s kerosene kiln)
Mark Holden (Amsterdam, The Netherlands)
http://www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl/pressurized_kerosene_kiln_burner.htm
(Holden built a kerosene kiln in India that used pressurized burners.)
Richard Miller (Alton, Hampshire, England, UK)
http://www.richmiller.co.uk/japan.html
(Shows photos of kerosene kilns of various sizes.
Y. O. Sadiq (Abubakar Tafawa Balewa University, Bauchi, Nigeria)
http://www.atbunet.org/Brochure/Kerosine_01.htm
(Discusses the kerosene vaporisation kiln for firing ceramic)
David Schlapobersky and Felicity Potter (Bukkenburg, South Africa)
http://www.pottery.co.za/studio.htm
(The potters run two kerosene kilns.
Helen
Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Joseph Herbert on sun 2 apr 06
Jeff,
My initial response is: Yikes!!
Pressurizing the kerosene container is one approach to the feed problem but
there are others. A mechanical pump is one option. Furnace oil burners in
this country combine an oil pump and an air blower in one. The heating oil
(not very different from kerosene) gravity feeds to the burner unit and is
forced through a nozzle that atomizes it and it is immediately mixed with
air and ignited. The pump assures the delivery is constant.
It seems your scheme involves heating some parts of the fuel delivery
system. This, as Egon would say, seems bad. If you are heating a tank
containing a flammable material you have the possibility of initiating a
boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion, one of the worst kinds. Either
buy a normal type oil furnace blower unit and stop messing with the
pressurized tank, or buy an air compressor to keep the tank pressure
constant. In either case, stop heating the fuel! If your burner doesn't
work well enough, get a different burner.
That loud ticking you hear could be your time running out.
Joe
Joseph Herbert
Training Developer
Earl Brunner on mon 3 apr 06
In my backpacking days, I had a backpacking stove
called a Whisperlite
http://www.backcountry.com/store/CAS0060/c3/s47/MSR-Whi
sperLite-International-Stove.html
That URL is wrapped on my computer, so you might need
to cut and paste.
If you get to this picture, you will notice that the
fuel line from the pressurized fuel tank passes THROUGH
the flame path of the burner on the stove. There is
also a little dish at the bottom of the stove that
liquid fuel is allowed into and then set on fire when
lighting this stove to preheat the gas prior to
reaching the main burner. Once the burner is lite, the
fuel is preheated, then the system is pretty much self
sustaining as long as there is fuel and air pressure in
the tank.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
Behalf Of Helen Bates
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:30 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: pressurized kerosene firing information
idea needed urgently
It is a little difficult for me to understand whether
Ezeh Jeff has actually
been heating the tanks (perhaps not), or just
pre-heating the burner and
tubing, which must be done to get a bright, hot flame,
as in kerosene-type
pump-up mantle safety lanterns, as opposed to
naptha-type Coleman Lanterns.
My uncle had two of these kerosene lanterns at his
cottage for many years.
Alcohol was placed in the pre-heating cup and lit with
a match. Once enough
time had passed to pre-heat the kerosene burner and
nearby tubing, the
burner could be lit. Of course, the kerosene fuel
tank's contents had to be
under good pressure. It wasn't a job for a child or
even for a woman who
hadn't bothered to develop her muscles.
Earl Brunner on mon 3 apr 06
This is second of two replies on this message.
That little stove put out the BTU's!!! This model is
also a multi fuel model, (Burns MSR White Gas and white
gas varieties, jet fuel, kerosene and auto gas)
http://www.backcountry.com/store/CAS0060/c3/s47/MSR-Whi
sperLite-International-Stove.html?swatch=CAS0060
At around 10,000 feet, I had mine set up, meal cooked
and stove restowed, while others, using less efficient
stoves hadn't boiled water yet.......
They aren't without their dangers though. I bought
mine cheap from a guy who was trying his out on his
back porch and set his picnic table on fire (almost
burned down the house). But that was just because he
hadn't turned the valve off that filled the dish for
the preheating and it kept putting fuel in until it
overflowed onto his picnic table and the flame in the
dish followed the fuel.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On
Behalf Of Helen Bates
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:30 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: pressurized kerosene firing information
idea needed urgently
It is a little difficult for me to understand whether
Ezeh Jeff has actually
been heating the tanks (perhaps not), or just
pre-heating the burner and
tubing, which must be done to get a bright, hot flame,
as in kerosene-type
pump-up mantle safety lanterns, as opposed to
naptha-type Coleman Lanterns.
My uncle had two of these kerosene lanterns at his
cottage for many years.
Alcohol was placed in the pre-heating cup and lit with
a match. Once enough
time had passed to pre-heat the kerosene burner and
nearby tubing, the
burner could be lit. Of course, the kerosene fuel
tank's contents had to be
under good pressure. It wasn't a job for a child or
even for a woman who
hadn't bothered to develop her muscles.
Helen Bates on mon 3 apr 06
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Replace nelbanell with yelbanell when replying to this post.
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It is a little difficult for me to understand whether Ezeh Jeff has actually
been heating the tanks (perhaps not), or just pre-heating the burner and
tubing, which must be done to get a bright, hot flame, as in kerosene-type
pump-up mantle safety lanterns, as opposed to naptha-type Coleman Lanterns.
My uncle had two of these kerosene lanterns at his cottage for many years.
Alcohol was placed in the pre-heating cup and lit with a match. Once enough
time had passed to pre-heat the kerosene burner and nearby tubing, the
burner could be lit. Of course, the kerosene fuel tank's contents had to be
under good pressure. It wasn't a job for a child or even for a woman who
hadn't bothered to develop her muscles.
Coleman lanterns burning naptha (white gas; Coleman gas) also need pumping,
but they don't need pre-heating.) However, they burn even hotter than
kerosene. Still, it's fire I would fear, not explosion, as the fuel is
contained in its tank. Only a small amount of flammable material is ever
available, and the tanks are metal, not breakable glass, in either type.
Other kerosene-burning lamps either burn less brightly (wick-only oil lamps)
or like the Aladdin Lamps must have a mantle as well, and are very difficult
to control. It's not explosion but sheer flaming up that's the problem. I
should know, I ran them at both my parents' and our own Northern Ontario
cottages for nearly 50 years.
My mother also had a 3-burner kerosene cookstove and it also had a
preparation process of some sort, though I can't now remember the details.
Likely it was some sort of pre-heater. The kerosene passes through it.
It's not that kerosene won't burn, but it needs to vapourize to produce a
really hot flame. Kerosene vapour produced under pressure and heat will
provide the hottest flame of all.
I think our correspondent has this in mind. I think she is pre-heating the
burner, not the tank, and she is also pre-heating the part of the tube near
the burner, not the part near the tank.
I find there is a surprising amount on the Internet about kerosene lanterns,
stoves, and heaters, and these items are used in many isolated areas of the
world, including Antarctica, not to mention China and Indian, and obviously
Africa. It's probable that people are still using them in some "Cottage
Country" areas of Canada and the USA where electricity has never been
brought in.
Oh yes, I had a kerosene refrigerator at my cottage too. It had no motor,
just a circular wick, a low glass chimney and a big flat tank. I used to
rise my bread dough on top of the tank. Built by Servel in 1935.
http://www.pchswi.org/hpark/graphics_hie/hschoolkstove.JPG
(A kerosene stove like the one my mother used for at least 40 years.)
http://www.base-camp.co.uk/111%20Hike.htm
(Optimus 111 "Hiker" Kerosene Stove illustrated parts list showing "spirit
cup" for pre-heating kerosene.)
http://quest.nasa.gov/antarctica/background/NSF/field-guide/manual13.html
(About kerosene and other stoves used in Antarctica - trouble-shooting)
http://www.project-himalaya.com/gallery-wanda-crew.html
(A good blue, nearly white flame as is needed for proper cooking
temperatures. [A yellow flame smokes, and is not very hot.])
http://www.sundries-export.com/sdp/74027/4/pd-997004/133419-499604.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4078540.html
(..."When the stove is about to be lighted, kerosene is channelled into a
preliminary preheating tube to be heated up to a high temperature within a
short time. The heated kerosene under pressure passes through a nozzle and
shoots through an air gap into a mixing tube, vaporizing in the process. The
mixture of the kerosene vapor and air is delivered into a burner where it
burns. After the stove has been lighted for about two minutes, the loop of
tube above the burner will be well heated. This tube is a part of the normal
path for kerosene. Kerosene is now channelled through this tube for
preheating, utilizing the heat produced by the burner to effect vaporization.")
http://www.endtimesreport.com/petromax_owners_manual.html
(Owners Manual for a brand of kerosene pressure mantle lantern, with
pre-heating instructions for 2 versions: rapid pre-heater, or alcohol cup
prep-heater)
http://wildernessmag.com/gear/gearaug01pri.html
(Shows three Primus brand liquid fuel-burning stoves that can burn kerosene.
The three have pre-heaters and pumps, and can burn some other fuels besides
kerosene (paraffin in some countries, not the wax we North-Americans
understand from the word "paraffin.")
Helen
Living with electricity or candles if the power goes out. Sold the cottage,
sold the fridge, which I belive is still used by the sister of our buyer,
sold all the Aladdin lamps. Never had a kerosene stove myself, or lantern.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 4 apr 06
Hi Helen,
My own thoughts...
She should easily be able to pressurise her
Kerosene Tank(s) with Atmospheric Air, say, to
three pounds or so, and use this, in lieu of a
Gravity feed method.
In-comeing Air could be run through a conventional
in-line dessicator to be exceptionally nice to the
System, to preclude accrued atmospheric moisture
from becomeing thence condensation...and to
preclude this ever building up or effecting the
quality of the flame or burning method's apparatis
or corroding the Tanks or other components of the
fuel system.
Too, a seperqate Air Reseviour Tank could
accomidate an ample reserve, and this itself could
be filled from a small or otherwise ordinary
electricly driven Air Compressor, useing
dessicated Air similarly, and...with a fine
Regulator, provide all the Air the Fuel System may
want, at a pre-set pressure of say three pounds or
so, positive. Thus alleviating the task of having
to add Air in any way, during a fireing.
Many finer Automobiles at one time, used a
pressuresed Fuel Tank and under-pressure-delivery
of the fuel to their Carburetor. And, came simply
with a small Hand operated Air Pump ( some, an
engine Operated Air Pump or small Compressor, )
mounted tastefully under or on the insturment
panel dash area, and a visible and conveniently
located pressure Gauge reading usually one-to-five
pounds positive.
One simply glanced to the Gauge now and then, gave
a few ( maybe a few dozen or so) 'pumps' of the
little hand pump, as needed, and Life, and
Motoring, proceeded happily...
Gravity feed indeed would have it's liabilities,
unless the Fuel Tanks were primarily shallow and
of large horizontal disposition, and, unless they
held several times more volume than what any
individual fireing would consume.
I remember seeing the reproduction of a
photograph, of George Ohr with his Kerosene Kiln
at the Columbian Exhibition, I think. The image
showed a sort of typical 'Bicycle Pump' of the
day, standing close to the Kiln, which was the
means of pressurizeing the Tanks.
Tanks, and their contents I mean, if anything,
should be chilled of course, or at least kept from
becomeing warmed, if convenient to do...and never
heated in any way. Within reason, the cooler the
fuel, the happier and more efficient the 'flame'
or the disciplined combustion, anyway...
If it were me, I would simply accomidate all this
with a separte and ample Air Tank, containing
dessicated Air, held at whatever pressure, fourty
or sixty pounds or something, regulate it 'down'
to three pounds or so, and let pressurise the Fuel
Tanks proper, to deliver the Kerosene at a nice
constant pressure. Or if it a small outfit, just
use a Bicycle Pump to pressurise the smaller
Kerosene Tank directly as needed, as I go, and of
course in either event, have a Gauge telling me
clearly what that pressure is which the Kerosene
Tank(s) themselves are getting/holding.
Love,
...and Kerosene...!
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Bates"
> ------------------------------------------------
------------
> Replace nelbanell with yelbanell when replying
to this post.
> ------------------------------------------------
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> Dear Clayarters,
>
> I apologize for not having changed the subject
line. I left it as is for
> script testing purposes. (See below.)
>
> To keep to the subject line for the moment: My
husband understands gas
> laws, flash points, and the like, having studied
physics and chemistry at
> the post-graduate level. I've been discussing
Ezeh Jeff's project with him
> a bit. It seems that as long as she/he doesn't
heat the tank itself, and
> knows how to operate a kerosene burner, and
knows how to operate the
> pre-heating system, etc., the only remaining
question is whether the
> pressure will drop too much as the liquid fuel
is used up, thus lowering the
> flame temperature. Having several tanks
attached in parallel may help in
> this regard.
> Helen
Maurice Weitman on tue 4 apr 06
At 20:08 -0700 on 4/3/06, Earl Brunner wrote:
>In my backpacking days, I had a backpacking stove
>called a Whisperlite
>http://www.backcountry.com/store/CAS0060/c3/s47/MSR-Whi
>sperLite-International-Stove.html
>
>That URL is wrapped on my computer, so you might need
>to cut and paste.
Earl and URL fans:
Enclosing your or Earl's URLs in < and > as in:
and
will, in most cases, prevent the "wrapping" (really fragmenting), and
if it did split, it would remain "connected" as a link.
Fyi, fwiw, hth, etc.
Regards,
Maurice
Helen Bates on tue 4 apr 06
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Replace nelbanell with yelbanell when replying to this post.
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Dear Clayarters,
I apologize for not having changed the subject line. I left it as is for
script testing purposes. (See below.)
To keep to the subject line for the moment: My husband understands gas
laws, flash points, and the like, having studied physics and chemistry at
the post-graduate level. I've been discussing Ezeh Jeff's project with him
a bit. It seems that as long as she/he doesn't heat the tank itself, and
knows how to operate a kerosene burner, and knows how to operate the
pre-heating system, etc., the only remaining question is whether the
pressure will drop too much as the liquid fuel is used up, thus lowering the
flame temperature. Having several tanks attached in parallel may help in
this regard.
Now for the OT part:
On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:29:04 -0700, Maurice Weitman wrote:
>Earl and URL fans:
>
>Enclosing your or Earl's URLs in < and > as in:
>
>
>
>and
>
>
>
>will, in most cases, prevent the "wrapping" (really fragmenting), and
>if it did split, it would remain "connected" as a link.
Maurice,
I use Mozilla Messenger, and previously, Netscape Messenger, to compose my
e-mail and these programs automatically enclose the urls in < and > if they
are "sent" from a web page. This is nice, but it causes problems with the
Potters.org archive (not with Listserv's archive, though.)
In the potters.org script, anything enclosed in contiguous angle brackets is
just deleted, along with the angle brackets. I corresponded with the person
who developed the script (sorry, I have forgotten his name after several
years) and he noted it but has not had time to find a remedy for the problem
, as far as I am aware.
If the angle brackets are separated from the url by a space, the potters.org
script leaves them in and the url, but I don't know whether the function you
mention would be preserved. I'll try it here below, and in a few days we
should be able to find the answer.
No spaces:
and
Spaces:
<
http://www.backcountry.com/store/CAS0060/c3/s47/MSR-WhisperLite-International-Stove.html
>
and
<
http://www.backcountry.com/store/CAS0060/c3/s47/MSR-WhisperLite-International-Stove.html?swatch=CAS0060
>
Helen
Helen Bates on tue 4 apr 06
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Replace nelbanell with yelbanell when replying to this post.
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Earl Bruner wrote:
"They aren't without their dangers though. I bought mine cheap from a guy
who was trying his out on his back porch and set his picnic table on fire
(almost burned down the house). But that was just because he hadn't turned
the valve off that filled the dish for the preheating and it kept putting
fuel in until it overflowed onto his picnic table and the flame in the dish
followed the fuel."
Any technology has it's dangers, even using an unprotected computer to
access the Internet, and there will always be people who start right in
without knowing a thing about it, or at least not enough.
I ran across a South African Scouting page that discussed the running of
these types of stoves, including the fact that valves had to be opened or
closed at various points.
Ya do have to know what you are doing! And our cottage wasn't air-tight,
being built of logs with ship's oakum chinking between the logs. It also
had a lot of doors and windows, more than most log cabins of the time. (My
mother designed it, and built a model of it herself. Amazing woman!)
My mother ran not only the kerosene 3-burner but a Coleman camping stove
which used Naptha (white gas), which was fully portable. The kerosene stove
was meant more for a semi-permanent set-up, ie: long-term camping. I wish
I could remember if it was a pressure stove or a gravity feed one. I can't
remember how she got the flame to a good heat, even. Mostly she was firing
it up while I was still in bed or had gone out to play, or was doing other
chores. By the time I could have learned, I was working at summer jobs
elsewhere. In any case, it was "her thing." She was the expert, and
perhaps she kept it that way, and we all let her.
Eventually she replaced it with a propane stove with built-in oven, but she
kept the Coleman stove. ;)
Helen
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