Steve Slatin on wed 12 apr 06
Lee --
Having a belief is just having a belief. It
doesn't make it so.
First point -- I didn't state anything about
electric in comparison to wood. You did. You're
jumping on my not because I wrote anything
incorrect, but because you're trying so very,
very hard to make a fight that you forgot to
check for facts. Your extended explanation about
that was just irrelevant.
Second point -- Wood particulate is actually
quite dangerous to humans. And burning wood
makes lots of CO2. The CO2 balance argument that
you make only works if you grow more trees than
you burn. This is a good idea, but it doesn't
usually happen. And it'll work out only if the
trees live forever and don't ever rot, during
which process they release ... greenhouse gasses!
(And I know you've mentioned the 2/3 savings
thing many times, but there seems to be no
objective research to back that up.)
Third point -- There is substantial research to
the effect that burning wood releases cyanide,
dioxins, formaldehyde (and several other
aldehydes), various polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons, and lead.
Now go back and read your message and the one of
mine that you were replying to. You'll see that
I didn't erroneously compare firing methods --
you did. Cone 6 is not only an 'electric' firing
technique. You can fire to ^10, ^6, ^1, or ^06
with wood, waste, electric, gas, coal, etc.
And if you fire to a lower cone, it takes FEWER
BTU'S TO GET THERE. Simple zen savvy, as Terry
Southern put it, should make that clear.
-- Steve Slatin
--- lee love wrote:
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Steve Slatin
> wrote:
> Particulate matter is not greenhouse
> gases. You parse your
> sentences. What you can see in smoke isn't the
> problem. And I have
> mentioned many times before, if the wood is
> cultivated to use as fuel,
> you take a net 2/3rds of the carbon out of the
> air using it as fuel.
> If you burn wood that would be burnt
> anyways, like my kiln or the
> co-generation plant at St. Paul, you are
> burning the wood in a safer
> way and getting free energy to boot. It isn't
> simply a matter of
> being renewable, but has an actual positive
> impact upon the
> environment. Unlike burning gas.
>
>
> If that is what you want to make. This
> argument taken to its
> logical end, would have us using FIMO or even
> clay you bake in your
> oven. ;^)
>
> Of course, you can fire at any
> temperature in wood: raku, low
> fire, enamel, etc. So that isn't an absolute
> advantage of electric fire.
>
>
>
> --
> Lee In Mashiko, Japan
> http://mashiko.org
> http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
>
> "On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog."
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Elizabeth Priddy on wed 12 apr 06
Also regarding this issue of raku being just
decorative:
It doesn't have to be like that. Raku processes
emphasize the black and glittery for the average guy.
But I have a different take on low fire wood and here
is my take on Raku:
If you use materials that vitrify at cone 05 and
glazes
that melt and emerge fully attached and covering all
of the surface that will be in use, it IS functional.
And you have it in 20 minutes instead of 36 hours.
Functional is functional regardless of whether you
electric fired low fire work or raku. Glaze that is
mature is mature.
With the advent of "better living through chemisty",
it
is no longer necessary to incinerate a rock to make it
melt. We have other options, more sophisticated
rocks.
The reason cone 10 wood is the benchmark is because
that is what was necessary to melt glaze and vitrify
unsophisticated materials. It is rather a brute force
method. (And an appropriate process for some for that
very reason.)
I am not advocating an end to it, but it rather has
the edge of a historical reinactment for me. And in
those, the north always wins.
But in real life Cone 10 is probably the dying media
and cone 6 and even way lower is the future. People
care about the product and ease and accessibility over
history in the end. We don't need to use so much fuel
to melt things and have a mature, vitrified, durable,
useful product. And I prefer cars to trains.
And as far as I am concerned, the stereotype of an
older man with whiskers and overalls firing a cone 10
wood kiln has all the cache of the ladies in the
colonial gowns guiding the tour on a red double decker
english bus through beaufort. Colonial dress guiding
a tour on a gas vehicle from a foreign country to look
at frankenhouses that are New York condo contemporary
on the inside and beaufort covenant 1888 on the
outside.
I am sorry but Society for Creative Anachronism is
more accurate than Historical Society.
And I just don't fit the whiskered geezer wood fired
suit. SO I will continue to look to the future.
Somebody has got to.
E
Carnak the Magnificent has got nothing on me....
the future will be digital...fire that is.
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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clennell on wed 12 apr 06
E; there are other ways of high firing wood kilns without being whiskered
and wearing coveralls. Ya might want to catch the scent of Ralph Luren Blue
(Valentine's present) on my wife as she stokes or catch a glimpse of Liz W
who cleans up very nicely.
I think this lowering temperature thing is indeed about going to your local
pottery supplier and buying in a plastic bag those very refined materials
you so rightly say are available to us. I don't want to use them. I want to
use my local materials and I have to get them hot. limestone,granite, ash
and shale. No macho intentions, but a wish to make work with the materials
at hand not imported Southern Ice or La Borne porcelain from another land.
There is such a thing as economy of scale when building a kiln. I almost
always gag when I hear people on this list wanting to build little wood
kilns. they take just as much wood and just as much effort as a big kiln.
A large wood kiln of 3-400 cubic feet could be fired in 18 hours and hold
probably 6 months work. This is what they used to do and I think Marcia is
right about community firings but think BIG not small.
Thank you Lee for those great photos. I luv the work of Goro Suzuki
especially his oribe. I had no idea of this pulling out of the work- thanks.
Marcia congrats on your website. I knew it would be great work.
Tommorrow a post on "Getting all the ladies to Utah"
Gotta go make pots.
Cheers,
Tony
lee love on wed 12 apr 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
> But in real life Cone 10 is probably the dying media
> and cone 6 and even way lower is the future.
I doubt it. Fossil fuel, including our current electric kilns, are
the "dying media." Renewable fuel and high tech electric is where
the the future is heading.
There is no net fuel savings at cone 6. The processing and
refining of the required materials simply shifts the needed heat
energy from the potter to the refiner of the materials.
Some types of wood firing is very efficent. It only costs me
$8.00 for a glaze firing of a 1 cubic meter kiln (about 400kgs of wood
for a 17 hour firing.) And what I don't burn, gets burnt in an open
fire, so my kiln has a positive effect on the environment. An even
better way is to tend a woodlot for fuel. Growing trees for fuel
takes carbon out of the air. 2/3s of the carbon a tree captures is
left in the woods.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
"On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog."
Steve Slatin on wed 12 apr 06
Lee -- It doesn't follow like that.
Different means exist to reach each cone --
wood, scrap, gas, electric. Different
advantages and disadvantages exist in each.
Gas, for example, has very low greenhouse
gas output and virtually no particulate, but
is largely a non-renewable resource. Wood is
renewable but has extremely high particulate
output. (That's one reason why in many cities
you can't get a permit to operate a wood kiln.)
But regardless of the heat source, it requires
fewer BTU's to attain a lower cone.
-- Steve Slatin
--- lee love wrote:
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth
> Priddy wrote:
>
> > But in real life Cone 10 is probably the
> dying media
> > and cone 6 and even way lower is the future.
>
> I doubt it. Fossil fuel, including our
> current electric kilns, are
> the "dying media." Renewable fuel and high
> tech electric is where
> the the future is heading.
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John Hesselberth on wed 12 apr 06
On Apr 12, 2006, at 11:53 AM, lee love wrote:
> There is no net fuel savings at cone 6
That's a strong statement Lee. I assume you can support it with
data???? Or is it just your considered opinion?
John
lee love on thu 13 apr 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Steve Slatin wrote:
>
> Lee -- It doesn't follow like that.
> Different means exist to reach each cone --
> wood, scrap, gas, electric. Different
> advantages and disadvantages exist in each.
Nuclear powered electricity is the dirtiest. Solar or wind the
cleanest. Electric will someday be less dirty when we use solar to
make hydrogen and fuel our kilns with that, only having water as a by
product.
>
> Gas, for example, has very low greenhouse
> gas output and virtually no particulate, but
> is largely a non-renewable resource. Wood is
> renewable but has extremely high particulate
> output. (That's one reason why in many cities
> you can't get a permit to operate a wood kiln.)
Particulate matter is not greenhouse gases. You parse your
sentences. What you can see in smoke isn't the problem. And I have
mentioned many times before, if the wood is cultivated to use as fuel,
you take a net 2/3rds of the carbon out of the air using it as fuel.
If you burn wood that would be burnt anyways, like my kiln or the
co-generation plant at St. Paul, you are burning the wood in a safer
way and getting free energy to boot. It isn't simply a matter of
being renewable, but has an actual positive impact upon the
environment. Unlike burning gas.
What is involved in thinking electric, gas or oil being cleaner
than wood is what I call "the toilet flush" syndrome. Because the
toilet takes the crap away, we think our sh*t don't stink. It is
like how people think hamburger comes from the hamburger factory, not
realizing it is the flesh of cows.
Electricity only appears to be cleaner because the polution is
created in another place. There are very efficent woodkilns that
burn very clean. There are potters working here in Japan with these
mutiple chambered systems and the government and power companies are
paying close attention.
> But regardless of the heat source, it requires
> fewer BTU's to attain a lower cone.
If that is what you want to make. This argument taken to its
logical end, would have us using FIMO or even clay you bake in your
oven. ;^)
Of course, you can fire at any temperature in wood: raku, low
fire, enamel, etc. So that isn't an absolute advantage of electric fire.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
"On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog."
lee love on thu 13 apr 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, John Hesselberth wrote:
>
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 11:53 AM, lee love wrote:
>
> > There is no net fuel savings at cone 6
>
> That's a strong statement Lee. I assume you can support it with
> data???? Or is it just your considered opinion?
My friend who was in the California Govenor's cabinet had a
study and plans to build wood fired electric plants, associated with
fast growing woodlots. Studies showed that this form of energy would
take a net 2/3rds carbon out of the air. I don't have time to
search for the paper, but will when I get some time.
Actually, it is common sense, once we get over the "flush toilet"
mentality.
We don't recognize the amount of energy it takes to
refine and import industrial materials. When you use indgienous
materials that require little or no petrochemical energy to refine,
and use materials that are local and get around the transportation
cost, and then use free fuel that would have otherwise been burnt
without using it as energy, you are going to use less energy.
Of course, you can have the best of both worlds by using unrefined
local materials and then low firing in a tradtional way. But I was
responding to was unfair criticism of wood firing comparied to cone 6
electric.
Cone 6 electric is not where we are all heading in the
future. We will eventually move away from polution prone electricity
and move toward sustainable organic fuels and solar/hydrogen. Of
course, they will probably do this first outside of the USA.
I would encourage people to decide what effect they want from
their firing process then try to figure out what kind of kiln will
best do what they want to do. Don't waste time trying to make a kiln
do what it was never supposed to do.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
"The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us.
Everything. The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not,
but in who knows it and ho don't."
--Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
Elizabeth Priddy on fri 14 apr 06
Again, what you said!
I didn't quite know what to say. The assumption
that cone10-13 is always better is not going down
without a fight.
time will eventually turn the worm though...
slowly...slowly....
Happy Spring Break/Thaw!
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Kim Overall on fri 14 apr 06
EP wrote:
But in real life Cone 10 is probably the dying media
and cone 6 and even way lower is the future.
No offense, but I sure hope you're dead wrong on this E. To me there is
nothing as pretty and tempting as high fire reduction. I equate it to
high fire raku! Cone 6 just doesn't get it for me. Never did, and
hopefully never will. Oxidized firings are just too predictable. Where's
the challenge? That's why wood firings and shinos are seductive; you
don't know "exactly" how they will come about when you open that door of
bricks. Even after decades of trying to.
Kim in Houston
John Hesselberth on fri 14 apr 06
On Apr 14, 2006, at 8:43 AM, Kim Overall wrote:
> Oxidized firings are just too predictable
Uh Kim, where did Elizabeth say anything about oxidation? Cone 6 is
not limited to electric kilns. More and more gas reduction folks are
firing their kilns to cone 6 or below. They are getting fantastic
results. Also I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you took a
look at work coming out of electric kilns now that people are
learning how to use them.
Regards,
John
Kim Overall on sat 15 apr 06
My apologies to you both John and E. I always recommend your book John,
Mastering Cone 6 Glazes, for those appropriate as THE reference book in
that electric firing range. Especially the shino look. I was stumped
even when I saw it face to face on a pot. The glossy shine was the only
Hocus Focus tell tale. It was beautiful.
You're right. E did not mention oxidation. What would be the point of
building a small wood kiln for oxidation? I jumped the gun and extended
the cone 6 radius too far.
Kim
lee love on sat 15 apr 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Kim Overall wrote:
> No offense, but I sure hope you're dead wrong on this E. To me there is
> nothing as pretty and tempting as high fire reduction. I equate it to
> high fire raku! Cone 6 just doesn't get it for me. Never did, and
> hopefully never will
Kim, I made the same assumption as you that EP was talking Oxy
because I don't see how cone 6 woodfired could be seen as "the future."
Raku can be very interesting because of post firing reduction.
As I have mentioned, TAK fat white with post firing reduction is the
closest low fire I have been able to find that approaches fat shino
glazes.
The big difference between cone 6 wood and cone 10 plus is that
you loose the pyroplastic effects on the clay body at lower temps.
But! To each his\her own! Decide what effect you want and then
use the kiln that will get it. Don't try to make a kiln do what it
isn't made to do.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://togeika.googlepages.com/
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
Love is the virtue of the heart
Sincerity the virtue of the mind
Courage the virtue of the spirit
Decision the virtue of the will
--Frank Loyd Wright
Maurice Weitman on sat 15 apr 06
At 04:45 +0000 on 4/15/06, lee love wrote:
> The big difference between cone 6 wood and cone 10 plus is that
>you loose the pyroplastic effects on the clay body at lower temps.
Lee, I assume you meant to type "lose" so I won't go there, but don't
they allow cone 6 clay bodies in Japan?
I've forgotten what year you left the states, but we've had them here
for some time.
I had a fine time firing cone 6 bodies to cone 6 in a noborigama.
Even threw some salt and soda in. Too bad we didn't have enough to
get the action we sought, but those pots with glaze and flashing
slips did just fine, thank you.
> But! To each his\her own! Decide what effect you want and then
>use the kiln that will get it. Don't try to make a kiln do what it
>isn't made to do.
So... what is it about that kiln that it isn't supposed to do?
Regards,
Maurice, freshly home from another road trip, this one (rain-free)
about 2700 miles from here to Santa Barbara, San Diego, Tucson,
Phoenix, Tempe (some great pots in the ASU Ceramics Research Center),
Flagstaff, Grand Canyon (!!!), Barstow, and Ojai for a quick visit
with Otto Heino. Talk about spunk... the dude works 6 days a week
and cranks out some fine looking pots. No whiskers on that geezer,
but just what I needed... a 91-year-old role model, happy and
productive.
Lee Love on sun 16 apr 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Maurice Weitman wrote:
>I've forgotten what year you left the states, but we've had them
>herefor some time.
How long I am here is pretty irrelevant because I meet wood firers
from around the world all the time. It is a much broader spectrum of
folks than I ever met back home. For example, I have enjoyed meeting
Steve Mills and his wife Kate. He built a dandy little kiln for
Genevieve. He was surprised because they easily fattened cone 12. Back
home, I think he has usually fired to 10. Tony, we went to the
tongatsu restaurant and Steve and Kate enjoyed! They head for Kyoto today.
An international woodfire conference begins in a couple weeks here in
Mashiko. I'll get a chance to met a passel of woodfirers, including
Jane Herrold. Later, when we have the Mashiko gathering in June, I
will see some more woodfirers on they way to or from Kanyama (not to
mention the folks coming for the Mashiko Gathering.
EP said cone 6 would replace cone 10. I double it because of
the qualities you get using unrefined materials at the higher temps and
also the interaction between the glaze and the clay bodies at higher
temperatures. Actually, I haven't fired to cone 10 in a long time. I
flatten cone 13. The Shigaraki clay, with the feldspar stones requires it.
I can fire cone 5/6 Bizen clay in my flue channel. It is the temp my
kiln goes to in that area.
> I had a fine time firing cone 6 bodies to cone 6 in a noborigama.
> Even threw some salt and soda in. Too bad we didn't have enough to
> get the action we sought, but those pots with glaze and flashing
> slips did just fine, thank you.
Adding soda and salt seems like the way to go at lower temps. I
don't mind a little. But, if you have to dump a lot of salt because the
kiln won't flash otherwise, then you have a vapor fired look rather
than a woodfired one. It is similar to gas fired saltware. But, it
all depends on why you are woodfiring and the effects you are trying to
achieve.
On the other hand, the single chambered wood kilns in Japan
rarely reached above cone 1 temperature marks, but firing for a week or
two did the heat work equivalent to higher temps for a shorter time,
that helped loosen the forms. Traditionally, Mashiko potters fired to
seger cone 8, which is about orton 9. But they were not interested in
flame effects or the changes that higher temps afford. They were
working to avoid these things.
> So... what is it about that kiln that it isn't supposed to do?
If you listen to the kiln, if you listen to the materials and
processes, they will tell you what to do. If you just pay attention to
your idea in your head, you will not have the mind of the kiln working
with you.
It was like when Hamada met Voulkos and Voulkos was making tight
little functional peices for sale in the shop (his serious work was
painting.) Hamada said to Voulkos: "You need to let the clay work for
you a little bit." Hehe. Look at what Hamada unleashed...
When I was five years old and my much older buddy Dianna (she was
all of 6 years old) invited me to "make stuff" from the clay we found
dug up from the new sledding hill across the street from her house, I
asked how we were going to bake the clay and how were we going to color
it. She said her mom would put it in her oven and she had white shoe
polish (probably for her brown & whit oxfords) and we could color the
clay with it. I said, "White? Okay! I will make Moby Dick!"
> and cranks out some fine looking pots. No whiskers on that geezer,
> but just what I needed... a 91-year-old role model, happy and
> productive.
I got a load of wood today. Euan called at 8am (he couldn't
bring the wood guy over because he started firing his kiln at 6am) Four
banded bundles hould be enough for about a dozen firings (has been
lasting a year. Some pieces are good for building, so I don't cut those
up but use them to make things.) Costs me 8000 yen. The wood is free
and I only pay for delivery. 8000 yen is $67.00 USD. That breaks down
to $5.60 a glaze firing for a one cubic meter firing space. If you
figure 300 pieces in a load, it breaks down to 1.86 pennies a pot. If
you include the exercise I get from cutting and stacking the wood,
instead of having to join a health club to get the excercise, you'd have
to say I am being paid to fire with wood. ;^)
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
"Really there is no East, no West,
Where then is the South and the North?
Illusion makes the world close in,
Enlightenment opens it on every side."
--Inscription inside Japanese Pligrim's Hat
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