Vince Pitelka on sun 21 may 06
Earl Brunner wrote:
"I must admit Vince that you have me a little confused as well. I have =
a
Harbor Freight gun that looks exactly like the Geil gun except for the
gauge on the air intake. It has HVLP stamped right into the handle. Now
I bought my Geil gun the first NCECA they offered it and it was cheaper
than what they are going for now. I will have no problem moving the
pressure gauge from the Harbor Freight to the Geil. In either case, I'm
sure I paid much less for the guns than your Paasche.
If it makes you feel better to split hairs on the HVLP definition,
that's fine. It isn't going to keep me from using my guns. They're the
best guns I've ever used for glaze especially for the money."
Earl -
You're missing the point. Everyone who has a Geil gun seems pleased with
it's performance. But our Paasche spray guns give great performance too.=
=20
I want to know if the Geil gun is a true HVLP conversion gun. It lacks
the input air regulator that is on other HVLP conversion guns, and I woul=
d
like to see the test data showing that it gives a significantly higher
transfer rate - the amount of glaze that ends up on the piece being
sprayed, rather than on wasted overspray. That's what makes HVLP
worthwhile. I know that the Geil is less expensive than the Paasche, but
that's not the point. It's certainly worth the money if it gives good
performance, but even better if it really is an HVLP unit and gives a
higher transfer rate. I want to know if it is. Calling it a HVLP unit
doesn't make it so.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Norman Aufrichtig on sun 21 may 06
hi phil,
love it.you took the steam right out of my sails and made me smile.curious,
did you read the whole thread of this conversation?.
with a total lack of political correctness, i have to say,i am very happy
that geil had the gun made at a price where i could easily get a few and
hopefully they didn't use prison labor and maybe they could have put on a
gauge , if for no other reason than to make it easer to use. i do have one
problem with the gun, the plastic cup on mine also broke,as did barbara's,
but i was at fault as i dropped it, luckily i had a hvlp gun from harbor
freight and was able to exchange tops.
i am more than willing to pay for quality, as i have a couple of your
wonderful trimming tools.
norman
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Vince - did you buy a Geil spray gun? What to get
> Hi Norman,
>
>
> Just a small clearification...
>
> A 'Gauge' does not determine or mediate pressure;
> it conveys an information analog about the
> pressure it is recieving or tapped-into, usually,
> with Needle on a callibrated Dial...or, in some
> other way.
>
> A Pressure Regulator, or 'Regulator' ( where some
> are made to hold a fixed 'Factory Setting' only,
> with no other option for PSI leaving it, most are
> adjustable as for PSI egress, ) mediates or
> steps-down pressure, according to it's setting de
> jur, whether or not it is equipped with a Gauge.
>
> A Regulator equipped with a Gauge, will either
> tell you what pressure is comeing into the
> Regulator, or, what pressure the Regulator has
> mediated and lowered...or, if having two Gauges,
> one on each end of the Regulator, you can then
> read both pressures in one glance...
>
>
> Your gun may have had a small Regulator equipped
> with a small Gauge, screwed into the Air's
> in-port, to then have the fitting-coupler to
> accept the Air-line's coupler-end...to mediate the
> pressure according to the adjustment it was set
> to, and, to tell you how much pressure was between
> the Regulator and the Gun...
>
>
> Such combos, (little die-cast or plastic
> regulator, and little plastic gauge,) especially
> when made 'off shore', wholesale for a likely
> around 67 Cents each in lots of a thousand or
> something.
>
> If a retailer wanted to add one to some
> 'off-shore' gun, it would hardly need to effect
> the price of the whole to any dramatic and
> punative-to-the-customer extent, especially as the
> gun itself, in lots of a thousand or something
> wholesale for like 4.00 or $4.26 each, if that
> much, with like 20 cents each freight costs, when
> shipped in 40 foot Cargo Caintainers from red
> china to LA, along with other consignments.
>
> Otherwise, a Gauge, is a Gauge...and the pressure
> will never know or care if it is there....
>
>
> And,
>
>
> ... remorseless mark-ups, schmoose-sell-hypes, the
> true ethics of most retailers, and anxious greed
> for easy profit, especially for super cheap
> hi-markup goods made by slaves and political
> prisoners in far away old cathay, is, simply, the
> disingenuous greed for profit...and a contempt for
> Life and for the naivete or wan dispiritedness of
> the customer.
>
>
> No matter who's so called 'name' is printed on the
> edge of the cardboard backing of the bubblepack,
> (which they stopped having I think, since
> eschewing that part, saves 4 cents per unit...and
> or had began to embarass them with how the top
> billing had proclaimed "MADE IN CHINA" and their
> famousname schtick, was much smaller, and was
> added like it was the afterthought it was...)
>
>
> Reality has many facets...of course...even little
> things do...
>
> And the ingenue, or lack thereof, of sorts, of
> HVLP claims, and of monied retailers, for whom the
> product is a mere incidental for fast easy profit,
> being among them...
>
>
>
>
> Best wishes...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Norman Aufrichtig"
>
>
> > vince
> > so the volume of air doesn't relate to the
> amount of pressure or the psi, so
> > when i am increasing the amount of air going
> into the spray gun the air
> > pressure is remaining the same!
> >
> > i am pushing more air through the same object.
> i do have 40 psi at the
> > beginning of the line, when i allow more of that
> 40 psi to reach the gun it
> > is adding more pressure to the spray pattern.
> >
> > the air controller that i added to the handle of
> the gun used to have a
> > gauge on it which broke off, so since the gauge
> broke off (according to you
> > i am only adding more air volume, the gauge no
> longer controls the
> > pressure), i use this to regulate the pressure
> of the gun, and it does
> > exactly what the screw on the bottom of the
> handle does. when i open the
> > screw i increase the volume of air which pushes
> more glaze through the gun
> > because of the increase in the pressure.
> >
> > this geil gun is very reasonable in price to put
> a gauge on it would
> > increase the price, maybe one can use their eyes
> and ears to regulate the
> > gun. but go ahead and use and recommend your
> expensive paasche guns, which
> > probably cost four or five times more and which
> may not even be gravity fed
> > .
> >
> > i have used at least a half dozen different
> spray guns in the last 35 years
> > that i have been a full time potter,supporting
> myself and my family. while
> > spraying isn't the only way i have decorated, i
> have done a lot of it, and
> > the geil gun gives me much less overspray, i
> control the spray for the
> > viscosity and the size of the pattern i am
> spraying and i control the
> > viscosity for the effect i want from the glaze.
> >
> > i wonder if it is the gravity feed which makes
> the gun work so well -
> > doesn't need so much pressure to push the glaze
> out of the gun. norman
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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Vince Pitelka on sun 21 may 06
Norman wrote:
> i have been using the geil spray gun for almost as long as they have be=
en
> advertising it, and i find it a very good spray gun, there is a adjustm=
ent
> on the handle which allows one to control the pressure, i have a
> additional
> control i put on the hose before the handle which is more convenient fo=
r
> me
> to use. i don't pay attention to the psi, i adjust by the spray pattern=
.
> have a regulator on the spray booth, where i connect the spray gun, whi=
ch
> i
> set to 40 psi, the only time i use this pressure is to clean the gun
> between
> different glazes and to spray clean the booth, when glazing i adjust th=
e
> pressure for the effect i want. i have never used the gun at anywhere n=
ear
> 40 psi even with thick glazes, it is a excellent spray gun. by the way =
i
> have used and own a true hvlp gun which has its own air source, bought =
it
> used in about 1983 for over $100 it sits in my store room unused, not a=
t
> all
> as easy to use as the geil gun. i felt compelled to answer this email a=
s i
> feel you have unfairly knocked a very good product, why don't you try i=
t.
> norman
Norman -
All well and good, but it's still not a HVLP gun, and that's the issue he=
re.
Unless you have someone scientifically evaluate the transfer rate to show
that it is much lower than a conventional high-pressure gun, and unless y=
ou
can show that the pressure at the spray cap is around ten PSI or less, th=
en
it ain't HVLP, and it is dishonest of Geil to advertise it as such. That=
's
the reality, no matter how well your gun works for you. The knob on the
input for your gun does not adjust pressure - it adjusts the volume of ai=
r,
which is not the same thing at all. I took one apart to make sure that t=
hat
adjustment was not a pressure regulator. A true HVLP "conversion gun" (o=
ne
that runs off a conventional compressor) has a pressure regulator on the
input. The Geil does not. I did try the gun, and it worked fine, but no
better than our Paasche high pressure spray gun.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Norman Aufrichtig on sun 21 may 06
vince
so the volume of air doesn't relate to the amount of pressure or the psi, so
when i am increasing the amount of air going into the spray gun the air
pressure is remaining the same!
i am pushing more air through the same object. i do have 40 psi at the
beginning of the line, when i allow more of that 40 psi to reach the gun it
is adding more pressure to the spray pattern.
the air controller that i added to the handle of the gun used to have a
gauge on it which broke off, so since the gauge broke off (according to you
i am only adding more air volume, the gauge no longer controls the
pressure), i use this to regulate the pressure of the gun, and it does
exactly what the screw on the bottom of the handle does. when i open the
screw i increase the volume of air which pushes more glaze through the gun
because of the increase in the pressure.
this geil gun is very reasonable in price to put a gauge on it would
increase the price, maybe one can use their eyes and ears to regulate the
gun. but go ahead and use and recommend your expensive paasche guns, which
probably cost four or five times more and which may not even be gravity fed
.
i have used at least a half dozen different spray guns in the last 35 years
that i have been a full time potter,supporting myself and my family. while
spraying isn't the only way i have decorated, i have done a lot of it, and
the geil gun gives me much less overspray, i control the spray for the
viscosity and the size of the pattern i am spraying and i control the
viscosity for the effect i want from the glaze.
i wonder if it is the gravity feed which makes the gun work so well -
doesn't need so much pressure to push the glaze out of the gun. norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Vince - did you buy a Geil spray gun? What to get
>
> Norman -
> All well and good, but it's still not a HVLP gun, and that's the issue
here.
> Unless you have someone scientifically evaluate the transfer rate to show
> that it is much lower than a conventional high-pressure gun, and unless
you
> can show that the pressure at the spray cap is around ten PSI or less,
then
> it ain't HVLP, and it is dishonest of Geil to advertise it as such.
That's
> the reality, no matter how well your gun works for you. The knob on the
> input for your gun does not adjust pressure - it adjusts the volume of
air,
> which is not the same thing at all. I took one apart to make sure that
that
> adjustment was not a pressure regulator. A true HVLP "conversion gun"
(one
> that runs off a conventional compressor) has a pressure regulator on the
> input. The Geil does not. I did try the gun, and it worked fine, but no
> better than our Paasche high pressure spray gun.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
> Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
> vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 5/19/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 5/19/2006
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 21 may 06
Hi Norman,
Just a small clearification...
A 'Gauge' does not determine or mediate pressure;
it conveys an information analog about the
pressure it is recieving or tapped-into, usually,
with Needle on a callibrated Dial...or, in some
other way.
A Pressure Regulator, or 'Regulator' ( where some
are made to hold a fixed 'Factory Setting' only,
with no other option for PSI leaving it, most are
adjustable as for PSI egress, ) mediates or
steps-down pressure, according to it's setting de
jur, whether or not it is equipped with a Gauge.
A Regulator equipped with a Gauge, will either
tell you what pressure is comeing into the
Regulator, or, what pressure the Regulator has
mediated and lowered...or, if having two Gauges,
one on each end of the Regulator, you can then
read both pressures in one glance...
Your gun may have had a small Regulator equipped
with a small Gauge, screwed into the Air's
in-port, to then have the fitting-coupler to
accept the Air-line's coupler-end...to mediate the
pressure according to the adjustment it was set
to, and, to tell you how much pressure was between
the Regulator and the Gun...
Such combos, (little die-cast or plastic
regulator, and little plastic gauge,) especially
when made 'off shore', wholesale for a likely
around 67 Cents each in lots of a thousand or
something.
If a retailer wanted to add one to some
'off-shore' gun, it would hardly need to effect
the price of the whole to any dramatic and
punative-to-the-customer extent, especially as the
gun itself, in lots of a thousand or something
wholesale for like 4.00 or $4.26 each, if that
much, with like 20 cents each freight costs, when
shipped in 40 foot Cargo Caintainers from red
china to LA, along with other consignments.
Otherwise, a Gauge, is a Gauge...and the pressure
will never know or care if it is there....
And,
... remorseless mark-ups, schmoose-sell-hypes, the
true ethics of most retailers, and anxious greed
for easy profit, especially for super cheap
hi-markup goods made by slaves and political
prisoners in far away old cathay, is, simply, the
disingenuous greed for profit...and a contempt for
Life and for the naivete or wan dispiritedness of
the customer.
No matter who's so called 'name' is printed on the
edge of the cardboard backing of the bubblepack,
(which they stopped having I think, since
eschewing that part, saves 4 cents per unit...and
or had began to embarass them with how the top
billing had proclaimed "MADE IN CHINA" and their
famousname schtick, was much smaller, and was
added like it was the afterthought it was...)
Reality has many facets...of course...even little
things do...
And the ingenue, or lack thereof, of sorts, of
HVLP claims, and of monied retailers, for whom the
product is a mere incidental for fast easy profit,
being among them...
Best wishes...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Aufrichtig"
> vince
> so the volume of air doesn't relate to the
amount of pressure or the psi, so
> when i am increasing the amount of air going
into the spray gun the air
> pressure is remaining the same!
>
> i am pushing more air through the same object.
i do have 40 psi at the
> beginning of the line, when i allow more of that
40 psi to reach the gun it
> is adding more pressure to the spray pattern.
>
> the air controller that i added to the handle of
the gun used to have a
> gauge on it which broke off, so since the gauge
broke off (according to you
> i am only adding more air volume, the gauge no
longer controls the
> pressure), i use this to regulate the pressure
of the gun, and it does
> exactly what the screw on the bottom of the
handle does. when i open the
> screw i increase the volume of air which pushes
more glaze through the gun
> because of the increase in the pressure.
>
> this geil gun is very reasonable in price to put
a gauge on it would
> increase the price, maybe one can use their eyes
and ears to regulate the
> gun. but go ahead and use and recommend your
expensive paasche guns, which
> probably cost four or five times more and which
may not even be gravity fed
> .
>
> i have used at least a half dozen different
spray guns in the last 35 years
> that i have been a full time potter,supporting
myself and my family. while
> spraying isn't the only way i have decorated, i
have done a lot of it, and
> the geil gun gives me much less overspray, i
control the spray for the
> viscosity and the size of the pattern i am
spraying and i control the
> viscosity for the effect i want from the glaze.
>
> i wonder if it is the gravity feed which makes
the gun work so well -
> doesn't need so much pressure to push the glaze
out of the gun. norman
Earl Brunner on sun 21 may 06
I must admit Vince that you have me a little confused as well. I have a Harbor Freight gun that looks exactly like the Geil gun except for the gauge on the air intake. It has HVLP stamped right into the handle. Now I bought my Geil gun the first NCECA they offered it and it was cheaper than what they are going for now. I will have no problem moving the pressure gauge from the Harbor Freight to the Geil. In either case, I'm sure I paid much less for the guns than your Paasche.
If it makes you feel better to split hairs on the HVLP definition, that's fine. It isn't going to keep me from using my guns. They're the best guns I've ever used for glaze especially for the money.
Norman Aufrichtig wrote:
vince
so the volume of air doesn't relate to the amount of pressure or the psi, so
when i am increasing the amount of air going into the spray gun the air
pressure is remaining the same!
i am pushing more air through the same object. i do have 40 psi at the
beginning of the line, when i allow more of that 40 psi to reach the gun it
is adding more pressure to the spray pattern.
the air controller that i added to the handle of the gun used to have a
gauge on it which broke off, so since the gauge broke off (according to you
i am only adding more air volume, the gauge no longer controls the
pressure), i use this to regulate the pressure of the gun, and it does
exactly what the screw on the bottom of the handle does. when i open the
screw i increase the volume of air which pushes more glaze through the gun
because of the increase in the pressure.
this geil gun is very reasonable in price to put a gauge on it would
increase the price, maybe one can use their eyes and ears to regulate the
gun. but go ahead and use and recommend your expensive paasche guns, which
probably cost four or five times more and which may not even be gravity fed
.
i have used at least a half dozen different spray guns in the last 35 years
that i have been a full time potter,supporting myself and my family. while
spraying isn't the only way i have decorated, i have done a lot of it, and
the geil gun gives me much less overspray, i control the spray for the
viscosity and the size of the pattern i am spraying and i control the
viscosity for the effect i want from the glaze.
i wonder if it is the gravity feed which makes the gun work so well -
doesn't need so much pressure to push the glaze out of the gun. norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Vince - did you buy a Geil spray gun? What to get
>
> Norman -
> All well and good, but it's still not a HVLP gun, and that's the issue
here.
Earl Brunner
e-mail: brunv53@yahoo.com
Snail Scott on mon 22 may 06
At 05:27 PM 5/21/2006 -0600, Norman A wrote:
>...i wonder if it is the gravity feed which makes the gun work so well...
Gravity feed is nice for all sorts of higher-viscosity
or lumpy/irregular materials, since they don't have to
get sucked up a little bitty tube by the venturi
effect of the air passing across the top of the tube.
On a standard gun, the air isn't pushing the paint or
glaze out in front of it, as many people imagine; it is
actually pulling the stuff out after it by creating a
vacuum. So naturally, thinner, smoother materials work
best in these devices. Regular paint sprayers rely on
the fineness and low viscosity of the paint, and glaze
(especially homemade, un-ball-milled, unseived glaze)
just isn't what they're optimized for.
I've always liked the no-nonsense basic design of the
'Critter' sprayer. No delicate parts to clean or wear
out, and it fits a standard mason jar. At the place
I've been teaching, the biggest drawback is the tendency
of students to mistake the jars for 'just a jar sitting
around', and appropriate it as a container, but at least
they're easy to replace. If you've got a gravity-feed
gun, though, it will let you do a whole lot that a
venturi sprayer, fancy or basic, just won't.
-Snail
Cindy Bracker on fri 26 may 06
Sorry to be delayed on this thread, it's been really hectic here and
I have not been keeping up with Clayart as much as I should. I did
call Geil about the broken cups. For anyone out there who has
experienced this problem, all you need to do is call Geil
800-877-4345 and they will replace your bottle at no charge.
Vince - I will be getting back to your reply to my post, but I want
to make sure I have my facts in line, as I think you know how
important it is to me to post accurate information and provoke
thoughtful and positive discussion.
Cindy
Cindy Bracker Sturm
Bracker's Good Earth Clays, Inc.
888-822-1982
http://www.brackers.com
On May 21, 2006, at 11:04 PM, Norman Aufrichtig wrote:
> i do have one
> problem with the gun, the plastic cup on mine also broke,as did
> barbara's,
> but i was at fault as i dropped it, luckily i had a hvlp gun from
> harbor
> freight and was able to exchange tops.
Barbara Lewis on fri 26 may 06
Cindy: Thanks so much for handling the broken cups situation with the Geil
guns . . . and you even provided the phone number! Barbara
----- Original Message -----
| |
|
