Snail Scott on tue 30 may 06
At 10:46 PM 5/30/2006 -0000, Malcolm wrote:
>I assume you [Kathy] are saying that Rodin's terra cotta pieces were made
>from multi-piece press molds. Am I right about that?
Many terra cotta pieces of this period and earlier
show visible mold marks. They were definitely sold
as multiples. They often have 'after-mold' carving
and detail added; they were seldom just plopped out
of the mold and left as-is.
>The original pieces, even the portraits, would have been made (as you
>know) on metal armatures...I don't see any way the original pieces could
have been fired
>with armatures inside them.
When the clay is leather-hard, you slice them
open, remove them from the armature, then join
and restore the surface. At this point, small
variations can be made if desired, and final
details rendered before drying and firing.
If the armatured pattern was used to produce a
plaster mold, a certain amount of restoration
would have been necessary afterward, to return
it to a proper appearance, so the hacking-up
for armature removal likely wasn't destroying
a pristine surface anyway.
-Snail
Norman Aufrichtig on tue 30 may 06
at the rodin museum in either paris or penn. i just don't remember, to long
ago, paris 1960, penn. mid 70's, saw a terra cotta bust of his mistress, i
think it was terra cotta, it's all vague, that is except the impression i
left with and how i still remember it, there was nothing soft in it, crystal
clear, very precise, the hand was very present. does anyone else know the
piece?
norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Bates"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Clay and Sculpture
> Hi Malcolm and Kathy,
>
> (If you care to reply, remember to change the "To:" address by changing
the
> first "n" to "y" - thanks!)
>
> I saw one of the glazed heads of Balzac by Rodin when the Musee des Beaux
> Arts in Quebec held its Rodin show. It was lovely.
>
> Actually, the fired clay version was by Paul Jeanneney:
> http://www.insecula.com/contact/A008596.html
>
> The link shows 3 zoomable images of Jeanneney / Rodin sculptures, two in
> stoneware and one in terra cotta.
>
> Helen
> (Belleville, ON)
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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Stephani Stephenson on tue 30 may 06
another place to see Rodin's work , in fact an entire floor of it
including plasters of Balzac
is the Maryhill museum near Goldendale, WA,
Maryhill sits high on the bluff above the Columbia River on the
Washington side
It was built in the early 1900s by railroad magnate Sam Hill.
.also featured at Maryhill are many of the trappings of the royal court
of Queen Marie of Romania,
a fairly amazing collection of Native American basketry, Russian icon
paintings, contemporary art and chess sets from all over the world
The Rodin work is a complete surprise in this most eclectic place, also
just up the road from the Stonehenge replica Sam also built.
http://www.maryhillmuseum.org/
Stephani Stephenson
steph@revivaltileworks.com
http://www.revivaltileworks.com
Kathy Forer on tue 30 may 06
On May 30, 2006, at 11:49 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
>
>> in sculpture. De Creeft, who knew Rodin when he was very old, said
>> that Rodin showed him a small carving of a child's head that he said
>> was the only piece he ever carved himself.
> Did they ever fire any of his clay? Or was it non-=20
> fireable
> clay sculpting clay?
Rodin did a lot in terra-cotta!
He worked in water-based clay and much of his work was fired and is =20
cataloged or seen as "terra-cotta." He did his own plaster piece =20
molds and worked very interactively with the molding process, =20
generating various versions from new models pulled from molds. One =20
story has his now famous "The Walking Man" (or was it "The Man with =20
the Broken Nose"?) freezing in his unheated winter studio. Another =20
has him spitting water from his mouth at the clay.
Apparently Rodin worked in porcelain paste with the "sculptor-=20
ceramist" Taxile Doat when they were together at S=E8vres. Rodin, =20
invited by Carrier-Belleuse, was there but two months but the =20
experience of making surface decoration is said to have influenced =20
his later drypoint etchings.
Rodin also worked directly in clay to be fired as terra-cotta, i.e. =20
his "Young Woman in a Floral Hat" and "Bacchante" are more =20
traditional examples. Many of his various figure studies were also =20
fired. =46rom the Sotheby's auction catalog: "Terracotta was a favorite =20=
material of eighteenth-century sculptors because it preserved the =20
spontaneity and gesture of the artist better than any other medium. =20
In contrast to the intervention of tools, assistants, and long =20
fabrication involved in producing bronze or mables, terra cotta =20
allowed immediacy of execution."
Kathy
Taylor Hendrix on tue 30 may 06
Kathy,
These are full-scale pieces yes, not maquettes? I wish we had a
present day terra-cotta artist of the human form. Know any, Snail,
Vince?
Taylor, in Rockport TX
On 5/30/06, Kathy Forer wrote:
...>
> Rodin did a lot in terra-cotta!
...
Malcolm Schosha on tue 30 may 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> Rodin did a lot in terra-cotta!
>
> He worked in water-based clay and much of his work was fired and
is
> cataloged or seen as "terra-cotta." He did his own plaster piece
> molds and worked very interactively with the molding process,
> generating various versions from new models pulled from molds.
...................................
Hi Kathy,
I assume you are saying that Rodin's terra cotta pieces were made
from multi-piece press molds. Am I right about that?
The original pieces, even the portraits, would have been made (as you
know) on metal armatures; with a lot of wood support inside too, to
keep the rather soft clay for modeling from sagging, or even breaking
away. I don't see any way the original pieces could have been fired
with armatures inside them.
I do remember de Creeft taking a student thorough the process of
making a plaster press mold, for terra cotta, from an original
standing figure in clay.
There is something about terra cotta that has a warm and lively feel
about it, but the process is not necessarily direct.
Thanks for the interesting information. I do not recall having seen
Rodin's terra cotta sculpture, but I do know the process was very
popular in France at that time.
Be well.
Malcolm
Helen Bates on tue 30 may 06
Hi Malcolm and Kathy,
(If you care to reply, remember to change the "To:" address by changing the
first "n" to "y" - thanks!)
I saw one of the glazed heads of Balzac by Rodin when the Musee des Beaux
Arts in Quebec held its Rodin show. It was lovely.
Actually, the fired clay version was by Paul Jeanneney:
http://www.insecula.com/contact/A008596.html
The link shows 3 zoomable images of Jeanneney / Rodin sculptures, two in
stoneware and one in terra cotta.
Helen
(Belleville, ON)
Kathy Forer on wed 31 may 06
On May 30, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
>> He did his own plaster piece
>> molds and worked very interactively with the molding process,
>> generating various versions from new models pulled from molds.
>
> I assume you are saying that Rodin's terra cotta pieces were made
> from multi-piece press molds. Am I right about that?
I mashed two statements. He took piece molds from clay sketches and
then made plaster models from those. But he also kept the sketches
and sometimes you can see embedded bits of plaster.
While the works were "formally complete," Rodin made fragments and
partial figures. His work process itself was often fragmentary. He
made mix-and-match models, generally in plaster, with elements cast
from various molds.
Sometimes he'd start with a fragment and work up a figure, sometimes
it was pure assemblage with parts of figures taken from other figures
or from a cache of hands or legs. Sometimes a solo head will have
been removed from another figure. Sometimes clay was added to a
plaster cast and then a new mold made.
"Rather than search for perfection and conclusions, Rodin looked upon
all that he did as potential beginnings for new variations or new
outcomes." (Albert Elsen, "In Rodin's Studio," 1980)
> The original pieces, even the portraits, would have been made (as you
> know) on metal armatures; with a lot of wood support inside too, to
> keep the rather soft clay for modeling from sagging, or even breaking
> away. I don't see any way the original pieces could have been fired
> with armatures inside them.
The larger terracottas, mainly the busts, were probably made from
molds. Cast slip or press molded. Perhaps there are even traces of
the mold lines in them as there are in the plasters. Other pieces of
fired clay are probably broken fragments of larger pieces, possibly
off an armature.
> I do remember de Creeft taking a student thorough the process of
> making a plaster press mold, for terra cotta, from an original
> standing figure in clay.
De Creeft knew his stuff, whether he practiced that way or not. After
I stopped carving in his class and went back to the figure I found he
had as much to teach about looking and modeling as about carving and
the other more general kind of things he taught. He would come to
look at us and praise our plastic and cord-wrapped figures, pointing
out their contraposto and vitality, even their sheen and material,
especially the tied cords emphasizing the form, as being superior to
the studies themselves. "Do as I say, not as I do."
> There is something about terra cotta that has a warm and lively feel
> about it, but the process is not necessarily direct.
Firing adds a separate process to what appears to have already been
completed. It requires a degree of pre-consideration and design,
often kept at bay when working directly, creating something as you go
along.
Additive vs. subtractive. Additive always seems looser, more
gestural. Subtractive has more rhythm and structure. Essential
structure is needed for clay to be treated as terracotta. Fire can
change the balance, tempting the the gestural to be more systematic,
less lyrical or expressive.
> Thanks for the interesting information. I do not recall having seen
> Rodin's terra cotta sculpture, but I do know the process was very
> popular in France at that time.
Check out this little piece at the Met: "Torso (A Study for Ariane
without Arms)" http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rodn/hod_12.13.1.htm
Kathy Forer
http://www.kforer.com
Lee Love on wed 31 may 06
The first thing I was struck by standing in front of the Rodin
head, was how much more satisfying it would have been, to see the actual
clay that he made for it. Even if it was fired. My Hanga/Woodblock
teacher doesn't make pots any longer, but he makes terracotta figurative
sculpture that he fires in a tiny kiln. He makes it and does a simple
non-glazed earthenware firing. It is primarily finished after the
sculpting (the firing is only to make it durable), not unlike the carved
sculpture Malcolm speaks of.
In the same room at the Bridgestone were 3 of my favorite
sculptors: Moore, Giacometti and Noguchi's teacher Brancusi.
Giacometti's work was cast, but Moore's reclining lady and Brancusi's
The Kiss were carved by the artists.
In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> In clay, there is still a firing process that changes the color,
> size, and surface finish of, the work; and there is the risk that
> everything could be ruined, or changed in undesirable ways, in the
> firing(s). It is nothing like direct carving.
I spend more time, trimming, carving, slipping and scraping my pots
than I do throwing them. When you think of it, throwing plastic clay is
only the tip of the iceberg in any ceramic wheel made piece.
Clay is flexible in this way. As many folks were doing at the UofMN
when I took classes there, I sometimes like to throw rings and then cut
them apart and assemble them. I make assembled versions of
traditional press mold work using this method. I like the tension of
having evidence of throwing on the wheel in work that is normally made
in square press molds.
Before I started studying clay I was in the beginning stages of
studying wood carving. Meeting my wife Jean changed my course.
Now, I am studying woodblock printing. Did you say you worked in
wood? Or was that someone else? I brought all my tools with me to
Japan. Large, thick pieces of wood that can be used for carving is
easier to find here and it isn't as expensive. I sometimes use the
smaller tools on my woodblock prints, along with my normal woodblock tools.
There are more disasters in the reductive method waiting to happen
than you can count. Though sometimes, you can glue them back on. I
imagine in stone, mistakes are even harder to repair.
> De Creeft, and a few others of his generation, returned to carving
> directly themselves in stone or wood; something that sculptors had
> done in earlier times.
I don't know much about him. I will do some looking on the
web.
Noguchi was an inspiration to me before I ever heard about
Hamada. I find the feuds between Yanagi and Rosanjin (Noguchi's
mentor) amusing, because I can sympathize with both sides. Noguchi's
friend Calder is also an early inspiration of mine. I prefer his
"personal" creations he had around his home over his monuments.
What I would like to know, is if Voulkos saw Noguchi's
traveling show of ceramic sculpture that toured America in the first
half of the 1950s. This toured when Voulkos was still making little
pots for the sales shop so he could get money to do his "serious art",
oil painting. I know he met Rosanjin, in 1954. Check out this
interesting lecture at Alfred by Louis Cort:
Crawling Through Mud: Avant-Garde Ceramics in Postwar Japan
http://ceramicsmuseum.alfred.edu/perkins_lect_series/cort/corttalk.html
She explains how Voulkos and the "Otis Movement" were more
traditional and "Japanese" than Noguchi and those he inspired in the
Kyoto ceramic sculpture movement.
> in sculpture. De Creeft, who knew Rodin when he was very old, said
> that Rodin showed him a small carving of a child's head that he said
> was the only piece he ever carved himself.
Did they ever fire any of his clay? Or was it non-fireable
clay sculpting clay?
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
Malcolm Schosha on wed 31 may 06
Hi Kathy,
I am glad I asked that question, because your reply brought a lot of
interesting additional information. Thanks.
Malcolm
...............................
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> On May 30, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Malcolm Schosha wrote:
> > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Forer wrote:
> >
> >> He did his own plaster piece
> >> molds and worked very interactively with the molding process,
> >> generating various versions from new models pulled from molds.
> >
> > I assume you are saying that Rodin's terra cotta pieces were made
> > from multi-piece press molds. Am I right about that?
>
> I mashed two statements. He took piece molds from clay sketches and
> then made plaster models from those. But he also kept the sketches
> and sometimes you can see embedded bits of plaster.
>
> While the works were "formally complete," Rodin made fragments and
> partial figures. His work process itself was often fragmentary. He
> made mix-and-match models, generally in plaster, with elements cast
> from various molds.
>
> Sometimes he'd start with a fragment and work up a figure, sometimes
> it was pure assemblage with parts of figures taken from other
figures
> or from a cache of hands or legs. Sometimes a solo head will have
> been removed from another figure. Sometimes clay was added to a
> plaster cast and then a new mold made.
>
> "Rather than search for perfection and conclusions, Rodin looked
upon
> all that he did as potential beginnings for new variations or new
> outcomes." (Albert Elsen, "In Rodin's Studio," 1980)
>
> > The original pieces, even the portraits, would have been made (as
you
> > know) on metal armatures; with a lot of wood support inside too,
to
> > keep the rather soft clay for modeling from sagging, or even
breaking
> > away. I don't see any way the original pieces could have been
fired
> > with armatures inside them.
>
> The larger terracottas, mainly the busts, were probably made from
> molds. Cast slip or press molded. Perhaps there are even traces of
> the mold lines in them as there are in the plasters. Other pieces of
> fired clay are probably broken fragments of larger pieces, possibly
> off an armature.
>
> > I do remember de Creeft taking a student thorough the process of
> > making a plaster press mold, for terra cotta, from an original
> > standing figure in clay.
>
> De Creeft knew his stuff, whether he practiced that way or not.
After
> I stopped carving in his class and went back to the figure I found
he
> had as much to teach about looking and modeling as about carving and
> the other more general kind of things he taught. He would come to
> look at us and praise our plastic and cord-wrapped figures, pointing
> out their contraposto and vitality, even their sheen and material,
> especially the tied cords emphasizing the form, as being superior to
> the studies themselves. "Do as I say, not as I do."
>
> > There is something about terra cotta that has a warm and lively
feel
> > about it, but the process is not necessarily direct.
>
> Firing adds a separate process to what appears to have already been
> completed. It requires a degree of pre-consideration and design,
> often kept at bay when working directly, creating something as you
go
> along.
>
> Additive vs. subtractive. Additive always seems looser, more
> gestural. Subtractive has more rhythm and structure. Essential
> structure is needed for clay to be treated as terracotta. Fire can
> change the balance, tempting the the gestural to be more systematic,
> less lyrical or expressive.
>
> > Thanks for the interesting information. I do not recall having
seen
> > Rodin's terra cotta sculpture, but I do know the process was very
> > popular in France at that time.
>
> Check out this little piece at the Met: "Torso (A Study for Ariane
> without Arms)" http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rodn/hod_12.13.1.htm
>
> Kathy Forer
> http://www.kforer.com
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@...
>
Malcolm Schosha on wed 31 may 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Lee Love wrote:
>
>
> Before I started studying clay I was in the beginning stages of
> studying wood carving. Meeting my wife Jean changed my course.
>
> Now, I am studying woodblock printing. Did you say you
worked in
> wood? Or was that someone else? I brought all my tools with me
to
> Japan. Large, thick pieces of wood that can be used for carving
is
> easier to find here and it isn't as expensive. I sometimes use the
> smaller tools on my woodblock prints, along with my normal
woodblock tools.
>
> There are more disasters in the reductive method waiting to
happen
> than you can count. Though sometimes, you can glue them back
on. I
> imagine in stone, mistakes are even harder to repair.
I have done some wood carving, but much more stone carving. That is
aside from the carved wood signs. I did a lot of those (carved
letters with gold leaf) as a freelance sign painter for sign shops
from around 1990 until just a few years ago. Mostly the carving is
done by computer controled routers now, so that work is gone.
It is my understanding that the Japanese wood carving tools are a
little different than the ones made in Europe....which is what is
mostly used in the US. For one thing, the cutting edge of the
Japanese tools is said to be harder and less tempered. That would
make them stay sharp longer, but break more easily if not used with
care.
>
> > De Creeft, and a few others of his generation, returned to carving
> > directly themselves in stone or wood; something that sculptors had
> > done in earlier times.
> I don't know much about him. I will do some looking
Not much about him on line, and much of that does not seem very
accurate. There are a number of books about him.
Be well.
Malcolm
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