clennell on thu 1 jun 06
A few years back i got a postcard from a friend Alberta potter John Chalke
that was a pic of a guy making bottoms for saggars. He was called a saggar
bottom maker. This poor bugger didn't even get to make the saggar- just the
bottom. Then I read Lee saying he was lucky to be the bisque washer. 3 year
apprenticeship where you stack wood for 3 months straight and then the guy
makes you wash bisque and you consider yourself lucky. Lee, I've said it
before- you are a saint! Lucky you're not still stacking wood is all I can
think. All this bashing of the American college system and I read Lee's
experience and I got to think this is really just a form of slavery called
apprenticeship. Lee showed me the little garden shacks that the foreigners
lived in with Shimoaka's multi million dollar compound on the hill above.
Kinda like a Georgian mansion except japanese style. The workers do pottery
work instead of picking cotton. I know you're gonna tell me this teaches
humility and discipline but I gotta figure I can teach them that with class
requirements of 50 of this and 100 of that and then glaze them and fire
them, a crit afterwards and the whole she bang.
I can't help but think there must be a system for foreigners and one the
Japanese equivalent of the golden haired boys. I doubt very much if Ken
Matsuyaki(sp) spent too much time at the wood pile. He would be a chosen
one- a golden haired boy. Lee are the jobs given to foreigners the same as
Mashiko towns people that are just thankful to have employment with no
ambitions of being a full blown potter?
Here at our pottery if I expected the wood stacked i'd stack wood along with
the others. If the bisque was to be washed I'd be washing too. i guess
that's why I'd never be a very good boss. I never would ask anyone to do
what i wouldn't do myself.
Best,
Tony
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Mark Issenberg on thu 1 jun 06
Dear Tony,, starting Monday I will have my own pottery slave,, what do i do
with her,, I have stacks of hard brick to grind and i have a new diamond blade
for my grinder.. Or should she be making my mugs,, or should be mixing my
recycled clay in my Venco,, Or should she be cleaning the kiln rooms.. Should
she be mixing my glazes,, She will be here for 2 months and her college is
paying her,, What should i do with her????? Tony help Me!!!!!!! Should be
making Bonsai pots?? Tony Help Me!!!
Capt Mark
_www.lookoutmountainpottery.com_ (http://www.lookoutmountainpottery.com)
Paul Lewing on thu 1 jun 06
on 6/1/06 3:48 PM, clennell at clennell@SYMPATICO.CA wrote:
> a pic of a guy making bottoms for saggars. He was called a saggar
> bottom maker. This poor bugger didn't even get to make the saggar- just the
> bottom.
I read somewhere once that that guy, who was usually the youngest and most
inexperienced guy in the pottery, was actually called a saggar-maker's
bottom-knocker. Probably a crappy job, but what a title! How'd you like to
put that on your Form 1040 for the IRS!
Paul Lewing
Elizabeth Priddy on thu 1 jun 06
Here at our pottery if I expected the wood stacked i'd
stack wood along
with
the others. If the bisque was to be washed I'd be
washing too. i guess
that's why I'd never be a very good boss. I never
would ask anyone to
do
what i wouldn't do myself.
Best,
Tony
________________________________
I think that is why my boys have always liked me. I
have never asked them to do anything that I was not
right there doing with them.
No job was beneath me, nor them. And when it was
getting a tire back on the rack under truck, I busted
my knuckles along side their's until we gave up and
just put it in the back cause it didn't fit the rack
and that's the real reason why the guy I bought the
truck from didn't put it back up under.
And some days that is just how it goes. And that is
one of the lessons my apprentices learn, that it ain't
all sunshine and pay. Somedays you sweat and are
defeated in the end. But then there's another day
comin just as sure as this one was for sh*t.
And that next day, you might feel ten feet tall at the
end of the day for being able to throw all day and
just look at the work left there on the bench, proud
enough to want to ask your dad in to see "what you
been doin over at ms. Priddy's".
Life is good. I never treat my boys like chattal or
even like my CB painter teacher treated me. I am not
in China or Korea or Japan. And my boys learn a lot
without mental cruelty and humiliation being part of
it.
My female apprentice got an earful every night from
her husband about how she ought to strike out on her
own and how she didn't need to apprentice. She is
going into medical office work now that she's been on
her own for a couple of years. The pottery will be
left as a hobby so that she can do "what is right for
her family".
I am so glad that I was "lucky" enough to marry a man
that believes in my dreams. Even with the baby added
into the mix late in the game, he's still got my back.
Still understands my apprentice and how fond I am of
him. Still a good man. Good thing I fell off that
turnip truck right at his feet.
Wow.
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
__________________________________________________
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 2 jun 06
Dear Tony,
I think a worker in this occupation was featured half a century ago on a =
UK TV show, "What's my Line". The full title was "Saggar Makers Bottom =
Knocker Outer".=20
I have copies of Chinese prints showing aspect of the pottery yards as =
they were. We tend to think that the Industrial Revolution concept of =
"Division of Labour" was invented by J. Wedgwood in the late 18 th Cent. =
But it is far older than that. If you were to increase your production =
significantly, even though you have the Field Marshals Baton you might =
change your attitude. Read "Ford" by Upton Sinclair.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
lee love on fri 2 jun 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
> Life is good. I never treat my boys like chattal or
> even like my CB painter teacher treated me. I am not
> in China or Korea or Japan.
We are talking apples and oranges of course. One way does not
exclude all others. It is good for us to "imagine" ways that are not
like our own. That is where innovation can come in.
An honest days work for an honest days pay is not demeaning nor
ill treatment.
I mentioned talking to the guy at Mingeiten gallery/sales shop
before. The Mingeiten was the first gallery opened in Mashiko,
where people not born here could sell their work.
The guy knew a lot about my Sensei's operation, including how much
deshis and shokunin were paid. One thing he said to me, was that
very few deshis would ever make more money on their own than they did
as an apprentice at my teacher's shop.
I am guessing he is right. It took a couple years
offinancial adjustment for us, when the apprenticeship checks stopped
coming in.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
lee love on fri 2 jun 06
I wrote:
> One thing he said to me, was that very few deshis would ever make
>more money on their own than they did as an apprentice at my
teacher's >shop.
I mis-spoke. He actually said, "Apprentices rarely make more
than the shokunin after they become independent."
The shokunin/craftsmen were paid more than apprentices because
of their lifetime mutual commitment.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee Love on fri 2 jun 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, clennell wrote:
> bottom. Then I read Lee saying he was lucky to be the bisque washer.
Tony, At my peak I figure, I was probably the best bisque
sponger on the planet. ;^) I say it was a lucky job, because I worked
closest to Sensei. I would sponge the bisque, inspecting it as I did,
looking for any flaws that only showed up in the damp state, and then
hand it to the glazer or Sensei, depending on if he was going to do any
iron decoration.
The other specific jobs during glazing were wiping foot bottoms,
scraping any glaze drips and touching up pinholes and loading the kiln.
We all did these, but I was the only one that sponged the bisque.
What that means, is that I handled every single pot that went into the
firing. Nobody else could say that. and I had a chance to know the
forms intimately. It was like I was able to sketch each pot before it
was glazed.
We all dusted bisque before we started glazing and loaded if things
were all glaze and were just waiting to be loaded.
The aspect that was not traditional, was that in the
traditional setting, you would not get near a wheel for a year or two.
You would just carry water, chop wood and sweep. At my teacher's
workshop, you were at the wheel making things from day one.
The biggest test is washing the tea bowls from a noborigama
bisque. The hottest part of the noborigama bisque is cherry red, so
other parts are much colder. You know, the bowls sell for for around
$6,000.00 when they are finished. Well, I broke two of them in my
first noborigama glaze cycle! They are so soft! Sensei just told the
head deshi to go fetch another one, without a blink.
And I watched the deshis that started after me each break them.
The deshis that break them almost had a myocardial infarction right on
the spot! And nobody says anything to them. Except I told them I did
the same thing.
> Lee showed me the little garden shacks that the foreigners
> lived in with Shimoaka's multi million dollar compound on the hill
>above. Kinda like a Georgian mansion except japanese style.
It seems to be a "right of passage." It is easy to have a big
ego being an apprentice to a National Living Treasure. Living in the
shacks was a way to keep perspective. Besides, the deshis are so busy
they have no time to spend money. They sock all their money away and
have a nice nest egg at the end of their term. And unlike traditional,we
were paid well, with bonuses twice a year equal to a months pay.
> I can't help but think there must be a system for foreigners and
>one the Japanese equivalent of the golden haired boys. I doubt very
>much if Ken Matsuyaki(sp) spent too much time at the wood pile.
Hard to believe it, but he did. For five years! When I was at
the workshop, I was the only foreigner. I worked with 4 other deshis
who were all Japanese. Everyone did the same jobs. The women were
expected to do heavy lifting and always kept up with the men.
>Lee are the jobs given to foreigners the same as
> Mashiko towns people that are just thankful to have employment with
>no ambitions of being a full blown potter?
Foreigners are spared some jobs, like ones that require a certain
level of Japanese language proficiency. The shokunin/craftsmen (65 and
77 when I was there) stacked wood and pull weeds too. We started every
morning at 7:30AM sweeping our little area of the garden. That was
really precious time.
> Here at our pottery if I expected the wood stacked i'd stack wood
>along with the others. If the bisque was to be washed I'd be washing
>too. i guess that's why I'd never be a very good boss. I never would
>ask anyone to do what i wouldn't do myself.
I hope you can do it when you are 85. There are many interesting
aspects of work in a workshop like this that are not easy to experience any
other way. I wouldn't trade those three years for anything.
I wouldn't recommend a fully traditional apprenticeship to
most Westerners.
What really helped me was the time I have spent at zen monasteries.
Actually, it is what the traditional workshop is modeled after.
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
Leonard Smith on fri 2 jun 06
You may be right, though I rescued a round wooden tool with a handle
from on old pottery where they still fired bottle kilns in the early
70's and was told the tool was called a Sagger Maker's Bottom Knocker.
Leonard Smith
Rosedale Street Gallery
2a Rosedale Street
Dulwich Hill NSW 2203 Australia
leonard@rosedalestreetgallery.com
http://www.rosedalestreetgallery.com
On 02/06/2006, at 11:29 AM, Paul Lewing wrote:
> on 6/1/06 3:48 PM, clennell at clennell@SYMPATICO.CA wrote:
>
>> a pic of a guy making bottoms for saggars. He was called a saggar
>> bottom maker. This poor bugger didn't even get to make the saggar-
>> just the
>> bottom.
>
> I read somewhere once that that guy, who was usually the youngest
> and most
> inexperienced guy in the pottery, was actually called a saggar-maker's
> bottom-knocker. Probably a crappy job, but what a title! How'd
> you like to
> put that on your Form 1040 for the IRS!
> Paul Lewing
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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Taylor Hendrix on sat 3 jun 06
And Lee,
Not only just apples and oranges but also old apples and oranges. At
one-month-shy-of-40, what business would I have being an apprentice?
A time-honored method which has its place for sure, but for the young
bucks and does. Hehe.
Get it any way you can.
Taylor, in Rockport TX, hoeing the hard row.
On 6/2/06, lee love wrote:
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
>
> > Life is good. I never treat my boys like chattal or
> > even like my CB painter teacher treated me. I am not
> > in China or Korea or Japan.
>
> We are talking apples and oranges of course. One way does not
> exclude all others. It is good for us to "imagine" ways that are not
> like our own. That is where innovation can come in.
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