Vince Pitelka on sat 3 jun 06
Kathy McDonald wrote:
I know that "standards" and basic requirements are critical to the
reputation and success of any program : however with advances in technology
and distance education ,and the "schools without walls" concept of service
delivery I believe that a very sound program can be delivered to specific
target populations without the full time residency requirement that many
schools seem to think is critical. Many people have access to equipment that
far exceeds what universities and schools can provide right in their own
studios or home communities.
Kathy -
You make many good points, and there certainly have been great advances in
technology and distance education that apply to so many fields, but they do
not apply to studio art. The mere existence of the technology inspires
university administrators to try to force the new technology and curriculum
on every field of study, and in some cases it just doesn't work. Any use of
long-distance technology in place of an on-site residency graduate program
will greatly water down the effectiveness of the graduate experience, and as
I said in a previous message, who would want to subject themselves to that
in place of an on-site resident grad program? It's counter to all the
reasons people go to graduate school, unless one's sole objective is an easy
path to the degree with minimal expenditure of effort and/or change of
lifestyle.
Kathy continues:
This does not mean that people would not spend time together, or that the
learning would be inferior.... it would just be different. We now have
lists like Clayart.... technical information that can choke even a
Clydesdale, online exhibitions, live chat and studio webcams...the list goes
on. I know you can't go for a beer together after class...but there are
always ways to provide workshops etc. that allow for some of the missing
informal experiences you refer to.
Vince continues:
I'm sorry, Kathy, but the above sounds like a college administrator trying
to justify distance education in studio art. None of what you mention above
does anything to support the concept. It's really unworkable, because it
WILL dilute the quality of the experience, and that means it isn't worth it.
I think it is irresponsible for otherwise credible university art
departments to be offering these distance studio programs.
Yep, I feel pretty strongly about this. So much is being done to dilute the
quality of American university education, and those of us who are commited
to offering the highest-quality programs have to fight like hell to maintain
the quality.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Kathy McDonald on sat 3 jun 06
Vince...
I agree with you in most respects.
I do not have an MFA but I do have other
post-graduate degrees in another field.
I think there has to be a kind of "total immersion"
in order to free the mind and the spirit to think in ways
that are responsible for both growth and learning.
I also think one has to be at a particular stage in one's
life
to be able to fully take advantage of and have the time and
resources to "spend" in that fashion.
I have often wished that there were a "quick and dirty" way
to add those MFA letters to my credentials because it would
open so many pathways for me at this stage in my life, but
I remember my grad and post grad experience as life
changing
and not simply as a ticket to a degree. That was then...this
is now.
Now that many colleges and universities face the challenges
of under funding they have adopted what I call a " people
processing" approach to both graduate and undergraduate
degrees.
They have to have the #'s to justify the program and
faculty.
This has, in essence, created a somewhat elitist form of
education
and in many of the art programs a kind of "closed shop".
i.e.: one has to complete all the requirements of the BFA
program
just to be considered for application to the MFA program.
This is true of most fields.... not just art.
I know that "standards" and basic requirements are critical
to
the reputation and success of any program : however with
advances in
technology and distance education ,and the "schools without
walls"
concept of service delivery I believe that a very sound
program
can be delivered to specific target populations without the
full time
residency requirement that many schools seem to think is
critical.
Many people have access to equipment that far exceeds what
universities and schools
can provide right in their own studios or home communities.
Those that do not are another target population...the ones
that need to be
in a structured setting that allows them access to equipment
etc.
This does not mean that people would not spend time
together, or that
the learning would be inferior.... it would just be
different.
We now have lists like Clayart.... technical information
that can choke even a
Clydesdale, online exhibitions, live chat and studio
webcams...the list
goes on.
I know you can't go for a beer together after class...but
there are always
ways to provide workshops etc. that allow for some of the
missing
informal experiences you refer to.
Anyway............my 10cents worth...
Kathy McDonald
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of
Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:09 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: online MFA Colleges offering the degree?
Tony F. wrote:
> Say, does anyone have a list of reputable colleges that
are offering an
> MFA online with some form of residency requirement?
Tony -
As you know, I never hesitate to play devil's advocate when
there is a good
reason to, and in this case I think there is. Why in the
world would you
even consider a distance MFA program? Why would you want
anything other
than total immersion? I don't care how good the college is
or how good the
teachers are or how good they say their MFA is. If you are
going to go to
the trouble at all, it should be total immersion. Getting
an MFA should be
a complete life-changing experience. Otherwise, why bother?
Just for the
degree? Just to have those three letters after your name?
I'm sorry, but
that ain't worth squat unless there is the substance and
experience behind
it, and there is no way you can get an equivalent experience
doing most of
the work in your own studio at home. To really make the
most of the
opportunity, you need to be there in the academic studio,
surrounded by
fellow students and the graduate faculty, interacting with
them every day,
participating in all sorts of informal and formal group
critiques, giving
and receiving inspiration and information.
As you might guess from the above paragraph, graduate school
was a
thoroughly positive experience for me. It was the best
thing I ever did in
my life. I really cannot imagine doing a graduate degree in
art without
being there on-site at the school. If it doesn't fit into
your life right
now to move somewhere else to be in residence while getting
MFA, then wait
until it does.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological
University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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clennell on sat 3 jun 06
Kathy and Vince
> i.e.: one has to complete all the requirements of the BFA
> program
> just to be considered for application to the MFA program.
> This is true of most fields.... not just art.
I think Kathy made some great points about this being 2006 and with
computers and on line libraries there are very creative ways to send an MFA
to ones home. the student is being asked to provide the bricks and mortar
and the university provides the human resources. tony F has his own full
blown studio, a business that is hopefully growing and his own anagama. If
he goes to a college he will loose the stride he has picked up as well as he
will have to share the sweet spots in the anagama with others.
I have pimped the Hood College MFA program before because I think it is
providing a program that many on this list can manage. they do weekend or
week long intensives coupled with work at home. Flying there for Tony F is
an expense but from the sounds of it 3 years away from your business plus
tuitions ain't exactly cheap.
Check out Jet Blue. I flew Buffalo to NYC for $69 one way. I couldn't drive
there for that money.
The no bricks and mortar thing is becoming ever more popular. I deal with a
bank that has no building. It has been working just fine. It's a whole new
way of working.
Cheers,
Tony
At Hood you don't require a BFA to take a MFA. Many take MBA's without
B.Comm's.
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King Street
Beamsville, Ontario
CANADA L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
Stuart Bidon on sun 4 jun 06
"immerse himself entirely in the graduate
studio, among the other graduate students, in close contact with the
graduate faculty, sharing with everyone in that extraordinary primordial
soup of creative inspiration and useful information."
Not so long ago, a large clay center in the upper midwest and a
reputable art school in the same city tried to manufacture an MFA
ceramics program out of thin air. The school sponsored the program
academically and the clay center provided the studio. They had one
applicant enter the program and the poor kid spent the next two years
working basically alone in his tiny studio.
The school was hot to expand it's design program, had some success
with furniture, and saw clay as the next logical step. The clay
center saw the program as a chance to associate itself with a masters
program.
However, nobody really thought about the student, alone, in his tiny
studio, alone for two years. He was a talented enough kid and had
gone through an excellent BFA program, but there he was, by himself,
basically in service to the desires of these two insitutions. The
whole boondoggle ended when this guy graduated with his nearly
worthless (but quite expensive) MFA.
I can't imagine how much better his work and experience would've been
had he been in a "real" program with other students and (at minimum)
weekly contact with his instructors. The MFA experience, as Vince
says, is all about working for hours on end, then sitting in your
peers' studios, drinking coffee, bitching about your instructors,
studying with instructors from other departments. . . it's a hugely
social experience. NCECA is the "macro" of this culture, I guess.
If you're going to get your MFA on-line, I would just get some fancy
diploma paper, print yourself a diploma, and then tack on the wall.
Which, ironically enough, is how I feel about my diploma every time I
move that box in the basement: "Has Completed His Master's Studies in
the Field of 'Art'".
clennell on sun 4 jun 06
Vince wrote:
>
> Yeah Tony, I love my online banking too, and what the hell does that have to
> do with this conversation? This is what I am worried about - the IDEA of
> technology, as it works in distance communication and on-line banking, being
> forced on studio arts just because it's there. It doesn't work at the
> undergrad level, and it's REALLY a lame-ass way of doing graduate studies.
Well, Vince the no bricks and mortar thing has everything to do with the
conversation. 2 decades ago I set up a Co-operative Education program in
Bruce Conty where the students went out of the school to work for local
businessess- hospitals, vets, mechanics, artists, hardware stores, etc,etc.
they received credit for hours worked. This started out as a program to keep
kids that hated school in school and graduating. Soon the academic kids
wanted on board. It reconized the expertise of people outside the school and
in many causes they had better facilities and equipment than the school
could ever provide.
More Vince:
There ain't no way he
> will get the same thing doing a distance education program while working in
> his own studio, and in fact, his own studio and his own equipment would
> prove to be a hindrance - it could really hold him back. It's a safe zone,
> and it could just be same-old-story. No matter how good his work is right
> now, one of the real risks when highly accomplished artists enter grad
> school is that they often just keep doing the same work, contracticting all
> the reasons for being there.
>
> We're talking about an opportunity to move forwards by light-years in a
> short period of time, and Tony F. is not going to accomplish that working in
> his own familiar safe zone. If he's really serious about this, then he
> needs to rip himself out of that safe zone and throw himself into the lion's
> cage.
> - Vince
more Tony C
if I might speak to your belief that potters have a safe zone and the
same-old same old theory. Studio pottery is safe and graduate school is
the lion's cage- really! I'll be damned, I didn't know this! Dolo-mite gave
a great list of potters that make some of the best work in the US. All
making work with occassional teaching. We that work the trenches look at
your position as the ultimate safe zone. I know why Tony F wants his MFA! He
wants your safe zone, not the one you claim he might live in. You want to
hang on to yours by claiming higher education is only available the way it
has always been presented.
The population has changed since you went back for your MFA. Creative
schools are offering new ways of presenting degrees. There is a large bulge
of people hitting 50-65 years old. Many are now thinking of going back to
school. Many schools are now offering courses abroad for credit. I think
this is amazing. They are recognizing that people can be brought together at
a place other than their own bricks and mortar.
I would have no hesitation as a craft school of offering credits to students
to go work for a potter. There could be a list of potters. You will see the
ones doing exciting work and teaching well being the ones selected each year
by the students. Yes, maybe the potters would be paid by the university to
teach off campus at their studios. You're not going to like this idea either
cause it rocks your safe zone. The studio potters will like it though since
it offers some safety in their income.
We now have a University from Australia located 20 minutes from me teaching
teacher education in a converted warehouse. Our own teacher education
programs have set the bar at a accepting students with a 95% average. The
Aussies saw a market and didn't have to build a campus to deliver the goods.
So Vince I could go on but the no bricks and mortar thing has everything to
do with what is coming down the pike. You may get your MFA credits in China,
Italy, France and some place in Tennessee and never see your classmates
twice.
It's all interesting and exciting. Potters have always had to be flexible
now maybe it's the teachers turn.
cheers,
Tony
William & Susan Schran User on sun 4 jun 06
On 6/4/06 10:21 AM, "clennell" wrote:
> It's all interesting and exciting. Potters have always had to be flexible
> now maybe it's the teachers turn.
Hey Tony & Vince, I think the argument comes down to what is appropriate for
the subject/discipline.
I have my MFA, I teach at a community college, I'm the Assistant Dean of the
art program and director of our campus gallery.
We have "distance learning/online learning" classes in the art program -
some art history courses. I have a faculty member currently developing these
lecture based courses to be delivered in other ways, such as pod casting.
For studio courses we are investigating "hybrid" courses - a combination of
on campus studio and off campus learning experiences.
For some classes, such as ceramics, the students are still required to
meet/work in the ceramics studio a certain number of class hours per week.
But if I had a student that wanted to work in a professional's studio,
whether in the area or across the country, or even on the other side of the
world, I would make it happen. In fact, I think this student would probably
get more out of their learning experience than those who were in the
traditional classroom experience.
-- William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
Vince Pitelka on sun 4 jun 06
Wayne Seidl wrote:
"To write off distance learning as "a lame ass way of doing graduate
studies"
is painting with too broad a brush. Not all of us have the time or
inclination to do it in a brick and mortar situation, and not all of us have
the resources or opportunity."
Wayne -
Your right, and I apologize for my broad brush. Let me ammend that to say
"Distance learning is a lame-ass way to pursue an MFA in studio art." I
would question the intent or commitment of anyone who wants an MFA but does
not have the time or inclination to do it in a brick and mortar situation.
As I said in a previous message, I cannot see any point in pursuing an MFA
unles a person is going to go whole-hog and immerse themselves in the MFA
experience, squeezing every drop of information and experience out of the
opportunity.
Regarding your own approach to education, I think that is wonderful. You
have made it serve you, to your best advantage. I have always believed in
the traditional noble goals of academia as life enrichment first, and career
training second. If you are primarily seeking life enrichment (or career
enrichment), then there's no reason in the world why you should follow a
specific degree-track curriculum.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Elizabeth Priddy on sun 4 jun 06
But I'm starting to sound like a broken record here.
- Vince
________________________________________
what I am sensing in your vehemence is that
YOU worked hard and sacrificed in a certain way to get
your MFA
the system is changing and you will be compared to
others with degrees that they did not pour the same
sacrifice and funds into
you feel baited and switched on some level and that
always pisses people off more than anything else
and you are somewhat jealous of the options available
to people doing it today versus the ONLY option you
had as you came through
and so:
you are making statements that imply directly that the
new MFA programs that are not structured traditionally
are illegitimate and not "real" MFA's
You might oughtta think on this one for a bit and see
where that extreme reaction is coming from, because
like the interstates, you need to just accept change
and embrace it because its coming whether you like it
or not.
As an academic in a position to structure and change
the "way it is done", you are uniquely capable of
getting into this game and making a legit program
through your college, a model of how it ought to be.
Because right now it is the wild wild west and you
will be either the buffalo or the settlers.
You maybe should consider all the voices in this
thread and see if your program could accommodate the
needs of people who seek MFA's on line. There are
good reasons for it. And Public Universities should
serve the public.
Hope you will seriously consider this, as I am
offering it seriously.
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 5 jun 06
Dear Friends,
Vince Pitelka Tells us..."It's really unworkable, because it WILL dilute =
the quality of the experience, ".... I think that puts it mildly.
I would be much stronger in my opposition to distance education at any =
level, except where it is an absolute impossibility to get access to =
learning facilities. Distance education eliminates from a student's life =
personal interactions among a broad spectrum of students and with =
academic staff from other faculties. It also disallows participation in =
non academic activities, eg social and political.. Its also a very =
lonely existence.
In the UK they have the "Open University". This is a distance mode =
education but it includes weekly tutorials with co-opted graduates from =
industry or local tertiary institutions and annual on campus lab work. =
But many courses do not include even this meagre person to person =
contact.
There are so few people in many communities with the intellectual =
background and experience to support a student who has chosen to study =
at a post graduate level. This is something a University can only =
provide on campus.
Whatever the rhetoric attached as instructions to prospective students, =
Distance Education Mode is a cost saving, profit producing option.
My own experience of using it and assisting students to use it is that =
it is over rated and unsatisfactory. As an example, a student who came =
from "the bush" to the school where I worked was enrolled in a distance =
education class for French. She was failing consistently on her weekly =
exercises. I had a look at the problem, realised she was in need of =
support and better resources. A good Bi-lingual dictionary and a review =
of each exercise before the due date, together with permission to =
contact me at any time when there was need solved the problem . The =
School soon had a straight A's student =20
Best regards,
Ivor=20
Sean Burns on mon 5 jun 06
This is an interesting topic to me- I have an MA not an MFA- I teach
high school art. It does seem to me that the institution doing the hiring
for a particular academic position would determine the validity of
the MFA on a case by case basis as applicants are screened- A distance
learning MFA may be looked down on by one institution while being viewed
as perfectly acceptable at another. A school that strongly values
sustained campus residency and all that entails may be less likely to hire
from the distance learner pool while schools seeking to develop those
programs might choose to draw more heavily from them. The MFA candidate
needs to determine what their personal standard will be given the options -
so it would seem.
Sean Burns
Art Dept.
Palmer H.S.
Elizabeth Priddy on tue 6 jun 06
Yes, Elizabeth, you have nothing to offer on this
except snippy,
insulting,
disrespectful comments. I have conducted this
discussion with respect
for
everyone else who has participated, and you have
replied with posts
that are
insulting and patronizing and have little to do with
the points I am
making.
They are a construct fabricated in your own mind.
I'm reeking of denial? Elizabeth, listen to yourself.
- Vince
____________________________________________
I do not believe that everyone shares your opinion on
this. Your disrespect towards everyone currently
involved in online MFA programs is one way that you
are wrong. There are others.
I was not being patronizing to you, as I am not your
father. I was being critical of you. Which is
defferent, but could be a rare sound for you these
days. I was trying to use conjecture to understand
why a reasonable man like you would be so
narrow-minded on this topic, not to construct
fabrications in my own mind (which would truly serve
no purpose).
You have no objectivity here, no more than I have.
Maybe we both should shut up, at least to each other.
That was your point, right? to ridicule and humiliate
me enough to make me shut up...or did I not get your
extreme and aggressive point (see above for citation)?
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Lee Love on tue 6 jun 06
I can imagine a curriculum, where a student recieved tele-video
instruction from a master potter from each of the 6 kiln sights in
Japan.
There is an NTT commercial that shows a potter in a wheelchair
instructing students via the internet. The potter and the students
are wearing sensor gloves, so they can "feel" what the potter is doing
while he is working at the wheel. It is only a matter of time
before this will be possible!
--
Lee In Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/
"The way we are, we are members of each other. All of us.
Everything. The difference ain't in who is a member and who is not,
but in who knows it and ho don't."
--Burley Coulter (Wendell Berry)
Elizabeth Priddy on tue 6 jun 06
Well, it is official then.
You are now "the man" that is trying to keep the
system the same, conserve it even, because it is the
war you fought and you'll be damned if you are going
to let anybody change the rules now that you are on
top.
Conserving a good thing is good only if it doesn't
exclude other good things.
Maybe there ought to be another designation than MFA
that could apply to people who do it alternatively.
perhaps an A-MFA. It could be like the 2 year
associates degree that is like the little BFA.
Or perhaps the LA-MFA, which sounds cosmopolitan, but
you know what it really means.
Your mind is made up and it is clear that you are
firmly in the establishment camp.
So good luck with your fight.
I just don't have a dog left in this one because I
can't figure which of my son's 2 year spans I am
willing to miss, as his dad's job is where he gets the
lights and all and that job ain't moving, so ... no
matter how committed I might be to art and recognition
and all that, I made a bigger committment about 2.5
years ago and I have to honor it for the next 16 years
at least. I didn't sign on without full disclosure,
so I think I should just let it go.
All the talk about online ones being available just
lit a little glimmer of hope and I, fool that I am,
bit. But you have successfully crushed it back out,
as you are the type of person I would have wanted to
study with, even if remotely.
Your allegience and committment to the powers that be
make it so that people like me will stay out of your
hair. Maybe your loss, but who knows.
And you already cut your hair, so no biggee, right?
Really, you go man!
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Kathy Forer on tue 6 jun 06
On Jun 5, 2006, at 3:13 AM, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
> Distance education eliminates from a student's life personal
> interactions among a broad spectrum of students and with academic
> staff from other faculties.
Art education is about learning craft and ways of making, but also
about exploring ways of seeing and understanding. Personal
interaction among students and faculty is rarely limited to
critiques, 'beer', fifteen minute moments of delicious creative being
or the shared experience of learning to appreciate difference.
At its best, students work off other, developing in ways that might
otherwise be unknown. If you make a red circle, then someone makes a
blue rectangle and a third student a green triangle, you're
developing a vocabulary and learning how to travel in unfamiliar
territory. You can do that alone but a positive group dynamic fosters
greater freedom and more opportunity for outliers and unexpected events.
It's not solely about "push and pull" teaching of tool and form
mastery to a single individual.
Computer technology can be pretty powerful but it's not always the
right tool. A distance learning course with video and chat, even
whiteboard, (and potentially motion detection), among small groups
would be appropriate for graphic designers who work holed up inside a
computer most of the time anyway, or computer scientists, maybe even
composers -- the medium fits the method (except for their need for
field trips and leg-stretching) -- but until we have Snowcrash
virtual reality, traditional tactile training requires perception of
actual external stimuli and not a simulacrum.
If we were to design pots on computers and output them with clay
plotters, that would be a different story. Students interaction
within a tech environment would probably even be enhanced. But we're
not there now and should accept the limitation of our current tools.
Space is the place :-)
Cyberspace exists only in notional imagination. Use it for those
objects that share similar qualities. Or use it to enhance facts or
develop theory. Fluid things like learning tend to take the shape of
their container; learning within the computer would be weighted
toward analysis and away from practice.
That said, it's probably possible to get a solid masters degree in
business administration that required only biweekly attendance. For
other higher education degrees consider whether a similar distance
interchange would be valuable without the paper degree. If it can be
done in two days a month, how would it be different were it every
day? And if it's every day but on the computer, consider what you
give up and what becomes stronger. Would you be happy seeing a doctor
who got a degree through an intensive correspondence course and
perhaps skipped a residency in favor of research?
Concept and performance are dependent on each other. We can mix them
up in a soup or in isolation. It's not so much that technological
distance education "waters" down the experience but that it changes
the dynamic, effecting strengthening of concept and idea, weakening
physiological interpretation and understanding.
A really good program is all day long, morning and afternoon studios,
evening lectures, crits and exhibits. It's hard to find the time to
do that when you're working full time or even part time. But at least
part time still allows your focus to be within the program. There are
probably variations on five plus days a week that would work as
effectively for advanced students but any basis needs to be
perceptually solid and enduring not digitally verbal.
Kathy
--
Kathy Forer
www.foreverink.com
Lee Love on wed 7 jun 06
On 6/7/06,Kathy> wrote:
> Would you be happy seeing a doctor
> who got a degree through an intensive correspondence
> course and
> perhaps skipped a residency in favor of research?
I think the craft aspect of learning to be a doctor is more
similar to an apprenticeship than it is studying in studio arts.
Maybe Tom can clue us in. An MD has their residency.
If we wanted to model our way of learning after the medical
system, it would include apprenticeship and then maybe a residency
with established potters/clay artist. It would have more in common
with my brainstorming idea of studying with Master Potters and backing
it up with online support through a studio arts system.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://mashiko.org
My google Notebooks:
http://tinyurl.com/e5p3n
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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