Vince Pitelka on sat 3 jun 06
post.
Tony Clennell wrote:
> I think Kathy made some great points about this being 2006 and with
> computers and on line libraries there are very creative ways to send an
> MFA
> to ones home. the student is being asked to provide the bricks and mortar
> and the university provides the human resources. tony F has his own full
> blown studio, a business that is hopefully growing and his own anagama. If
> he goes to a college he will loose the stride he has picked up as well as
> he
> will have to share the sweet spots in the anagama with others.
> I have pimped the Hood College MFA program before because I think it is
> providing a program that many on this list can manage. they do weekend or
> week long intensives coupled with work at home. Flying there for Tony F is
> an expense but from the sounds of it 3 years away from your business plus
> tuitions ain't exactly cheap.
> The no bricks and mortar thing is becoming ever more popular. I deal with
> a
> bank that has no building. It has been working just fine. It's a whole new
> way of working.
Yeah Tony, I love my online banking too, and what the hell does that have to
do with this conversation? This is what I am worried about - the IDEA of
technology, as it works in distance communication and on-line banking, being
forced on studio arts just because it's there. It doesn't work at the
undergrad level, and it's REALLY a lame-ass way of doing graduate studies.
So, Tony F., with all his studio equipment and his high level of
accomplishment has to ask himself why he even wants to get an MFA. If he
really wants to do it for all the right reasons, then he NEEDS to distance
himself from his current setup and immerse himself entirely in the graduate
studio, among the other graduate students, in close contact with the
graduate faculty, sharing with everyone in that extraordinary primordial
soup of creative inspiration and useful information. There ain't no way he
will get the same thing doing a distance education program while working in
his own studio, and in fact, his own studio and his own equipment would
prove to be a hindrance - it could really hold him back. It's a safe zone,
and it could just be same-old-story. No matter how good his work is right
now, one of the real risks when highly accomplished artists enter grad
school is that they often just keep doing the same work, contracticting all
the reasons for being there.
We're talking about an opportunity to move forwards by light-years in a
short period of time, and Tony F. is not going to accomplish that working in
his own familiar safe zone. If he's really serious about this, then he
needs to rip himself out of that safe zone and throw himself into the lion's
cage.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on sun 4 jun 06
post.
Dear Elizabeth -
If you reconsider my messages on this subject, you will realize that words
like "vehemence" and "extreme" are entirely inappropriate in this
conversation. What have I ever said in this discussion that would warrant
either of those words? Do you envision me here at my computer foaming at
the mouth just because I am passionate about my convictions?
> YOU worked hard and sacrificed in a certain way to get
> your MFA
The hard work that my wife and I did in graduate school was entirely our own
doing, and an easy commitment at that point in our lives. We didn't make
any sacrifices at all. Everything we gave up was a deliberate trade-off and
a very small price to pay for what we received in return. I could have
completed the MFA degree with far less effort, but why would I do that? Why
would I shortchange myself like that? I was very well motivated and had an
excellent major professor. So many things inspired me to make the most of
the opportunity.
> the system is changing and you will be compared to
> others with degrees that they did not pour the same
> sacrifice and funds into
Of course the system is changing. Academic, cultural, and bureaucratic
systems are in constant flux. I accept that, and I change with them, but I
will not accept the progressive dumbing down of higher education, where
things become simpler and easier in order to cram more people through the
system. Where's the gain in that?
> you feel baited and switched on some level and that
> always pisses people off more than anything else
Huh? Where in the world are you getting this? Honestly, Elizabeth, you are
so smart and you have so many good things to say on so many subjects, but
sometimes you jump to very strange conclusions.
> and you are somewhat jealous of the options available
> to people doing it today versus the ONLY option you
> had as you came through
Elizabeth, I wouldn't trade one minute of my graduate school experience for
any other option, and I certainly wouldn't trade it for an option that was
easier or that would have allowed us to stay in Humboldt County. My
goodness, how our lives were immeasurably expanded and changed for the
better as a result of living in different parts of the country during and
after graduate school. If you've listened to my posts over the years, you
know how graduate school changed my life in so many positive ways. Jealous?
Why in the world would I be jealous in this situation? Jealous of what?
What an odd interpretation.
> you are making statements that imply directly that the
> new MFA programs that are not structured traditionally
> are illegitimate and not "real" MFA's
As I said, I have no problem with change. But I cannot accpept the dumbing
down of MFA programs, where it is easier for the student and there's less
work for the faculty, and thus they are able to funnel more students through
their programs. Don't they realize that such programs produce
less-qualified teachers and artists, and that this reflects badly on the
institution?
> You might oughtta think on this one for a bit and see
> where that extreme reaction is coming from, because
> like the interstates, you need to just accept change
> and embrace it because its coming whether you like it
> or not.
Your implication that I HAVEN'T thought on this a great deal is just a
little bit insulting, and of course your implication that my reaction is
extreme is laughable. As an art academic committed to the highest-quality
undergraduate and graduate education I of course am intolerant towards
degree programs that diminish the worth of the BFA or MFA degrees.
> As an academic in a position to structure and change
> the "way it is done", you are uniquely capable of
> getting into this game and making a legit program
> through your college, a model of how it ought to be.
That's pretty much what I've always tried to do, but only when it increases
the effectiveness of the degree program and improves the experience for the
student.
> You maybe should consider all the voices in this
> thread and see if your program could accommodate the
> needs of people who seek MFA's on line. There are
> good reasons for it. And Public Universities should
> serve the public.
That's what I've been doing throughout this discussion - considering all the
voices in this thread, and then voicing my own strong convictions. We don't
offer an MFA at TTU. The administration wants us to develop one, but it
will take time. But of I have no intention of having anything at all to do
with developing online or distance BFA or MFA programs.
Tony Ferguson seems to have dropped out of this conversation, and that
worries me a bit. I hope I have not upset or offending him in any way. I
do think highly of him and his work. Tony Clennell is probably right. Tony
Ferguson might be so motivated and committed that he could make the most of
the opportunity even through a distance MFA program. But most students
seeking an MFA do not have that level of accomplishment and ability, and I
am afraid that the fulfillment of the MFA degree via a distance or online
program would be a severely watered-down experience of little worth in
preparing them for whatever comes next. As I said, there's just no point to
that at all.
> Hope you will seriously consider this, as I am
> offering it seriously.
Elzabeth, your posts are generally wise, and I respect your willingness to
state strong opinions, but your suggestions above really don't have much to
do with me. You're talking to someone else. I respect you, and thus felt
that I owed you a serious response. This is a worthwhile ongoing
discussion.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Penni Stoddart on sun 4 jun 06
post.
I have to admit I have not followed this thread from the very beginning but
since I always read what Mel has to say and Tony C. - I see I may have
something valuable to say.
Two weeks ago I turned 41, last year I spent my birthday in Buffalo, at
teacher's college. I had the thought as my birthday rolled around "what the
hell am I doing?"
As Tony C said in post;
"We now have a University from Australia located 20 minutes from me
teaching teacher education in a converted warehouse. Our own teacher
education programs have set the bar at accepting students with a 95%
average. The Aussies saw a market and didn't have to build a campus to
deliver the goods."
My college in Buffalo is one of 5 that caters to Canadian students wanting
to get a teaching degree. Instead of taking a year off work with no pay and
going through a 10 month program here in town (my under grad degree was too
low for them anyhow!) I worked full time. Left work every Friday at noon to
drive with 3 others, 3 hours from home to Buffalo New York, sat in class
from 6 to 10pm every Friday night and then again all day Saturday. I did
this for a full year and THEN did my student teaching in two big blocks of 8
weeks each. More student teaching then my counterparts who did the 10 month
program here in town.
I now have a masters of science in education rather then just a bachelor of
education. Puts me up on the pay scale for teachers and as a former
education assistant, has doubled my salary already and I have only been
working as a supply teacher - same pay for everyone regardless.
My point is this, and echo's Mel's....... if you have a chance to do an MFA
and it will help you in your career and with an increase in your pay and
retirement funds then why the hell not!?! I thought I was too old to be
going back to school again (I had already returned to college and did my
early childhood education diploma when my daughter was just 2). And yes, I
am older then most students who are now starting out as supply teachers with
me but I am hoping that my age and experience as an education assistant and
early childhood educator will give me the upper hand when contract positions
open for interviews.
So if you have the chance, whether it's correspondence or not - go for it!
That's it.
Penni Stoddart B.A., E.C.E., M.S.
(working on getting more letters behind my name then my father who has a PhD
in nuclear physics! PhD -bah, only means "piled higher and deeper")
Vince Pitelka on sun 4 jun 06
post.
Dear Tony,
After all this time on Clayart, and after all the agreements and
disagreements you and I have had, I think that you and I know each other a
little better than this exchange of messages indicates. OF COURSE you or
Tony or any other well-motivated studio artist can move forward with their
work on their own, in their own studio, creating some of the most exciting
work being done today. I have the greatest respect for what you or Tony F.
or any other serious studio artist can accomplish.
But that has nothing to do with this conversation. We are talking about all
the give and take that occurs in the "lion's cage" of graduate school, and
there's very little similarity between that complex interactive and
cooperative dynamic and the far more centered and self-directed life of the
independent studio artist. The studio artist who has accomplished what you
or Tony F. has accomplished doesn't need to go get an MFA unless he/she
wants a tenure-track university teaching job. But if they are going to get
the MFA, regardless of their level of accomplishment, they damn well better
go all the way and make the most of the opportunity. I do not mean any
disrespect towards you or Tony F., and I DO know what I am talking about
here - you cannot get the same thing working in your own studio and then
traveling to a university for occasional meetings and critiques with faculty
and other students. It just isn't the same thing at all, by any stretch of
the imagination.
As you can see I am pretty passionate about this, but I don't believe that I
have said anything that was disrespectful towards you or Tony F. in this
interchange. But in your post you said "We that work the trenches look at
your position as the ultimate safe zone. I know why Tony F wants his MFA! He
wants your safe zone, not the one you claim he might live in. You want to
hang on to yours by claiming higher education is only available the way it
has always been presented." Are up serious? I hang on to my "safe zone" by
claiming that higher education is only available the way it has always been
presented? Do you really believe that this is what I am thinking? And do
you really think that you work any harder than I do? You see me as having
the security of a tenured academic position, but tenure really is not a
"safe zone" by any stretch of the imagination. In our case, the state tried
to shut down our facility in 1998 and it could happen again any time there's
another budget shortfall. I work very hard because I believe in it and I
enjoy it - I'd rather be at the studio than almost anywhere else - but also
because we need to keep the Appalachian Center for Crafts visible and
productive on every possible level in order to ensure our future. That's
always a big challenge.
But this is getting off on a tangent. As I mentioned in another message,
there is so much being done to dilute the quality of higher education in
studio arts. It's really shameful, and I wonder where it is all leading.
So many of the changes taking place cannot be viewed as progress by any
stretch of the imagination. As far as I am concerned, the only way anyone
can get a BFA or MFA in studio arts and reap all the important benefits from
it and make the degree count for as much as possible is to be in residence
at the school in the middle of everything that goes on in a vital, lively
academic department. To do otherwise is to diminish the worth and
significance of the BFA and MFA degree. Any sort of shortcut or fast-track
to the degree devalues the degree for the recipient and for every other
person who has worked their ass off to get the degree through legitimate
channels. As you can see, my motivation for protecting the value of the
BFA and MFA degrees exists on many levels.
Tony, perhaps I should have said "comfort zone" rather than "safe zone,"
because I am not talking about job security here. For a studio potter or
for a teacher, working in their "comfort zone" is a matter of survival and
peace of mind, and yet, to move forward, we must move outside our comfort
zone. It isn't really a "safe zone" for either of us anymore, because
there's very little security in tenure in academia today. But that's beside
the point here, because we are talking about quality and professionalism,
and while an artist or teacher firmly ensconced in their "comfort zone" will
present the impression of quality and professionalism, it is sometimes hard
to step outside that comfort zone to challenge oneself. Graduate school is
intended to jump start and supercharge that kind of development, but the
student has to get completely out of their comfort zone if they are going to
make the most of the opportunity.
Remember that I was 37 when I went to grad school, coming out of ten years
as a full-time studio potter supporting my family. My wife and I had built
one hell of a "comfort zone" in Northern California - a beautiful big old
house on a 3/4 acre lot in a great little town - Blue Lake, in Humboldt
County. I had a big garage/workshop with all the mechanical tools and
welding-fabricating equipment and a big collection of antique machinery,
plus a three-room studio with great equipment and facilities. When we
decided to go to grad school, we expected it to be a completely transforming
experience, and we new it would involve getting WAY out of our comfort zone.
We sold 90% of everything we owned and moved across the country from
California to Massachusetts. It was the best thing that ever happened to
us, and changed our lives in more ways than I can explain. I'm not saying
that this particular track is the best one for everyone, but I think that
anyone who is contemplating graduate education should do everything possible
to make the most of the opportunity, and to make the degree count for as
much as possible.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Wayne Seidl on sun 4 jun 06
post.
I really have no business sticking my nose into this thread, as I have =
no
degree other than from the school of hard knocks. But that has never
stopped me before, so...
Having (by choice) been located at a far end of the earth for the past =
20
years has afforded me some wonderful opportunities. Amazing people from =
all
over the world come here; there is a very close proximity to various =
other
countries, making travel throughout S. America and Central America easy =
and
affordable by boat and air. It has also allowed me a personal freedom =
that
I would not have found in the heartland of the US. =20
That said; there are also inconveniences to living at the end of the =
earth.
One is the lack of shopping (thank goodness for the internet), another =
is a
lack of cultural opportunities, such as galleries and museums; yet =
another
the lack of proximity to most workshops, clay studios, potters. Again,
thank goodness for the internet.
In the time I have been here though, trying not to succumb to the =
"ma=F1ana
syndrome" (ma=F1ana does not mean tomorrow, it literally means "not =
today") I
have often taken advantage of online courses. Some with various
institutions, others (work-related) through organizations designed to =
allow
us to continue to grow in our fields while still maintaining an income. =
I
currently have over 30 certifications from various professional
organizations, including OSHA as a result. In some cases, personal
interest, and in others continuing education allowing me to continue to =
do
my job. =20
At no time did I ever register for a degree program, either online or at =
the
local colleges. It just never interested me because:
I don't see the need to compete or collaborate with youngsters getting =
their
dubious "education" on their parent's dime.
I refuse to be sucked into the requirements that force me to take =
courses I
have no interest in, or do not apply to the field I choose to study =
(such as
elective classes for the study of ceramics) Note: I am NOT saying that =
such
classes are without value, but that they are without value to ME.
Not all instructors are worth studying under. The term "horse's ass" =
comes
to mind more than once at the local community college.
Online classes have allowed me to study ONLY what I want, when I can =
find
the time. It involves a much greater degree of concentration and =
commitment
to your course of study than showing up to a class with a hangover and
sleeping through lectures. (and yes, Vince, I HAVE seen people graduate =
with
degrees after four years of "Animal House" behavior, completely =
unequipped
to deal with the real world. In fact, I've hired some of them. They =
never
lasted long, faced with "real work".) One must be completely focused on =
the
information at hand, and absorb it, in an online class study while
continuing to face the rest of one's life: ringing telephones, customers
requests and complaints, personal issues with partners/spouses, =
government
mandated paperwork, etc. It is far harder to study online than to =
"escape"
to the quiet of a classroom, where immersion is possible, and most often
offers a respite from the pressures of the rest of one's life.
To write off distance learning as "a lame ass way of doing graduate =
studies"
is painting with too broad a brush. Not all of us have the time or
inclination to do it in a brick and mortar situation, and not all of us =
have
the resources or opportunity.=20
Just my 2 cents.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
snip
Yeah Tony, I love my online banking too, and what the hell does that =
have to
do with this conversation? This is what I am worried about - the IDEA =
of
technology, as it works in distance communication and on-line banking, =
being
forced on studio arts just because it's there. It doesn't work at the
undergrad level, and it's REALLY a lame-ass way of doing graduate =
studies.
So, Tony F., with all his studio equipment and his high level of
accomplishment has to ask himself why he even wants to get an MFA. If =
he
really wants to do it for all the right reasons, then he NEEDS to =
distance
himself from his current setup and immerse himself entirely in the =
graduate
studio, among the other graduate students, in close contact with the
graduate faculty, sharing with everyone in that extraordinary primordial
soup of creative inspiration and useful information. There ain't no way =
he
will get the same thing doing a distance education program while working =
in
his own studio, and in fact, his own studio and his own equipment would
prove to be a hindrance - it could really hold him back. It's a safe =
zone,
and it could just be same-old-story. No matter how good his work is =
right
now, one of the real risks when highly accomplished artists enter grad
school is that they often just keep doing the same work, contracticting =
all
the reasons for being there.
We're talking about an opportunity to move forwards by light-years in a
short period of time, and Tony F. is not going to accomplish that =
working in
his own familiar safe zone. If he's really serious about this, then he
needs to rip himself out of that safe zone and throw himself into the =
lion's
cage.
- Vince
Snail Scott on sun 4 jun 06
post.
At 12:33 PM 6/3/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>At Hood you don't require a BFA to take a MFA...
In my experience, most MFA programs don't
require a BFA. (I was accepted to several
without one.) Any college degree will get
you there. But, they may require some amount
of equivalent coursework to show that you
won't be behind, especially in art history
and such. An MFA isn't solely a studio
experience anywhere, and they don't want
students who are trying to get up to speed
on the more academic side of art while
simultaneously keeping up with the studio
work. And you don't want to be that student,
either. A few deficiencies may be waived,
but overlooking them completely isn't good
for you or the program. The studio work is
enough to keep anyone busy full-time
without the pressure of fitting in remedial
academic coursework. I've known students
who were admitted to MFA programs in spite
of academic deficiencies, based on their
studio work and evident ability, but it was
a constant struggle for them, even if they
weren't asked to take any extra courses.
They just weren't on the same page as the
other students, and lacked the vocabulary
and background to talk about the concepts
that were important to them. Talk isn't the
most important thing about grad school, but
it's a rather valuable thing. Maybe if you
don't want to talk, a correspondence course
would be perfect, but you'd miss out on a
lot.
If you don't have an academic background
that's at least similar to the requirements
of that school's BFA program, take a few
courses to catch up BEFORE grad school. A
local community college may have what you
need. It's less a matter of having the
transferable credits than of showing you
have the knowledge, and also that you took
the effort to seek it out. For this part,
a few correspondence courses might be just
the ticket.
If you aren't interested in that academic
mode of art, then maybe an academic program
isn't the right way for you to proceed. An
MFA program isn't a finishing school for
artists, nor an advanced technical workshop,
nor job training. It's an academic degree,
(though less academic than most) and wishing
it were something else won't make it so.
It's not for everyone (and that's a good
thing, too). An MFA program is only one form
of education and development among many. And
MFA programs also differ among one another.
Consider what you want to gain from the
experience. Technical training? Intellectual
training? Dialogue? A credential? A chance
to focus, or a chance to experiment? Studio
facilities beyond what you can muster for
yourself? Know your own intent, or at least
think about it before proceeding. What do
you need? What do you want?
I suspect a correspondence program would be
a handy way to get the credential, if that's
your main intent, but do you want more? If
so, what are you willing to give up to get
it? It's always a tradeoff.
If you have a school or schools in mind,
contact them to find out their requirements
AND their emphasis; they do differ. Asking
questions and showing preparedness will
stand you in good stead as an applicant and
as a student.
-Snail
Kathy McDonald on sun 4 jun 06
post.
I am attaching Vince's entire reply for anyone following
this thread:
We have had some very good discussions over the years
related to
grad school and it's relevance.
I particularly like this one because
it is making us all think about education,
as opposed to just "degrees" and it challenges some
of the current notions about what makes for
a worthwhile graduate experience.
I think it depends on one's stage in life, and on one's
stage
in art.
Vince , I am so glad that you feel as passionately as
you do about the kind of education you believe is critical
to a graduate studio program!! I want those kinds of
programs available to my grandchildren and their children
should they decide to pursue that path in their future
lives.
They are disappearing quickly here in Canada.
I think we are really in agreement about many of the
philosophies.
Where we seem to be in disagreement is related to the
fact that grad school for the sake of a "grad school
learning experience" is a luxury that some people cannot
afford for many reasons. Those reasons can include
cost, family obligations, geography, ....the list goes on.
I would love nothing better than to head off somewhere
to study art. Get totally "drowned" in clay...
never mind "immersed". It's not practical..for me...
at my stage in life. I mentioned in my previous post
I've gone to full time grad school X 2. I loved it!! , was
very valid at
that stage in my life.
What I need now is a way to continue to learn, to study art,
to enhance my knowledge base and to get some credentials
that
are relevant to my "new" life endeavors without having
to disrupt my whole family and life circumstances.
I think that I am one of a number of potential students
that many universities might be overlooking. Distance ed
combined with some commutes for evaluative purposes is
the perfect compromise. The tools are available , standards
can still be maintained.....
I have both taken and taught courses for teachers delivered
by distance
education. They were as close to the "immersion" experience
I had
during my grad school days. Technology and visual aids
allowed for
as much, or perhaps more, sharing than I remember being
available
back in the 70's when I did my other grad and post grad
studies.
I want to be challenged to move beyond what I do now....but
I
am the type who would take that on more readily if I were
paying
a tuition fee and had the accountability and structure of a
grad program..(even an online one) than if were left to my
own devices.
So Vince........with all due respect......I think we might
just
have agree to disagree!
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of
Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:17 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: online MFA Colleges offering the degree?
response to
Vince's post.
Kathy McDonald wrote:
I know that "standards" and basic requirements are critical
to the
reputation and success of any program : however with
advances in technology
and distance education ,and the "schools without walls"
concept of service
delivery I believe that a very sound program can be
delivered to specific
target populations without the full time residency
requirement that many
schools seem to think is critical. Many people have access
to equipment that
far exceeds what universities and schools can provide right
in their own
studios or home communities.
Kathy -
You make many good points, and there certainly have been
great advances in
technology and distance education that apply to so many
fields, but they do
not apply to studio art. The mere existence of the
technology inspires
university administrators to try to force the new technology
and curriculum
on every field of study, and in some cases it just doesn't
work. Any use of
long-distance technology in place of an on-site residency
graduate program
will greatly water down the effectiveness of the graduate
experience, and as
I said in a previous message, who would want to subject
themselves to that
in place of an on-site resident grad program? It's counter
to all the
reasons people go to graduate school, unless one's sole
objective is an easy
path to the degree with minimal expenditure of effort and/or
change of
lifestyle.
Kathy continues:
This does not mean that people would not spend time
together, or that the
learning would be inferior.... it would just be different.
We now have
lists like Clayart.... technical information that can choke
even a
Clydesdale, online exhibitions, live chat and studio
webcams...the list goes
on. I know you can't go for a beer together after
class...but there are
always ways to provide workshops etc. that allow for some of
the missing
informal experiences you refer to.
Vince continues:
I'm sorry, Kathy, but the above sounds like a college
administrator trying
to justify distance education in studio art. None of what
you mention above
does anything to support the concept. It's really
unworkable, because it
WILL dilute the quality of the experience, and that means it
isn't worth it.
I think it is irresponsible for otherwise credible
university art
departments to be offering these distance studio programs.
Yep, I feel pretty strongly about this. So much is being
done to dilute the
quality of American university education, and those of us
who are commited
to offering the highest-quality programs have to fight like
hell to maintain
the quality.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological
University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
____________________________________________________________
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Vince Pitelka on sun 4 jun 06
post.
Kathy McDonald wrote:
> Where we seem to be in disagreement is related to the
> fact that grad school for the sake of a "grad school
> learning experience" is a luxury that some people cannot
> afford for many reasons. Those reasons can include
> cost, family obligations, geography, ....the list goes on.
and:
> What I need now is a way to continue to learn, to study art,
> to enhance my knowledge base and to get some credentials that
> are relevant to my "new" life endeavors without having
> to disrupt my whole family and life circumstances.
Kathy -
I don't think we are in disagreement about this at all. I don't think that
grad school is a luxury. For those who really want and need it, it's a
necessity. Hell, Linda and I couldn't afford it all. We applied to grad
programs all over the midwest and northeast that have a good record of
giving tuition wavers and teaching assistantships, and UMass offered both to
both of us. We took out some loans, and made it work for us.
I just don't want to see anyone offering paths to the MFA degree that
diminish the value of the degree, because that hurts everyone who has worked
hard and completed the degree in a legitimate MFA program.
You are right, there should be academic programs designed for all the
special-need students, and in most cases, there is something adaptable. I
am completely in favor of distance education where it is appropriate, and I
am certainly in favor of continuing education (life-long learning). I'd
like to see education somehow manage to meet the needs of every student who
wants to learn. But you have to standardize things to some degree just to
make the whole system work, and the MFA degree has been standardized as a
total-immersion terminal studio degree for those who want to drastically
accelerate their learning curve in the studio arts and/or want to seek a
tenure-track teaching job. I don't think it is appropriate to make it
easier or more convenient. If a person really wants an MFA, they need to
make whatever changes are necessary in order to allow them to make the most
of the opportunity - to really squeeze the graduate experience for all it is
worth.
But I'm starting to sound like a broken record here.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
ianni josephine on sun 4 jun 06
post.
Good one Penni. I'm older than you but I enjoy
being in a class room even if some of the student
could be my grandchildren.
Now I know your age but I won't tell anybody.
Hope to see you at the raku bash.
Caio for now.........Joey
--- Penni Stoddart wrote:
> I have to admit I have not followed this thread
> from the very beginning but
> since I always read what Mel has to say and Tony C.
> - I see I may have
> something valuable to say.
>
> Two weeks ago I turned 41, last year I spent my
> birthday in Buffalo, at
> teacher's college. I had the thought as my birthday
> rolled around "what the
> hell am I doing?"
> As Tony C said in post;
> "We now have a University from Australia located 20
> minutes from me
> teaching teacher education in a converted warehouse.
> Our own teacher
> education programs have set the bar at accepting
> students with a 95%
> average. The Aussies saw a market and didn't have to
> build a campus to
> deliver the goods."
>
> My college in Buffalo is one of 5 that caters to
> Canadian students wanting
> to get a teaching degree. Instead of taking a year
> off work with no pay and
> going through a 10 month program here in town (my
> under grad degree was too
> low for them anyhow!) I worked full time. Left work
> every Friday at noon to
> drive with 3 others, 3 hours from home to Buffalo
> New York, sat in class
> from 6 to 10pm every Friday night and then again all
> day Saturday. I did
> this for a full year and THEN did my student
> teaching in two big blocks of 8
> weeks each. More student teaching then my
> counterparts who did the 10 month
> program here in town.
> I now have a masters of science in education rather
> then just a bachelor of
> education. Puts me up on the pay scale for teachers
> and as a former
> education assistant, has doubled my salary already
> and I have only been
> working as a supply teacher - same pay for everyone
> regardless.
> My point is this, and echo's Mel's....... if you
> have a chance to do an MFA
> and it will help you in your career and with an
> increase in your pay and
> retirement funds then why the hell not!?! I thought
> I was too old to be
> going back to school again (I had already returned
> to college and did my
> early childhood education diploma when my daughter
> was just 2). And yes, I
> am older then most students who are now starting out
> as supply teachers with
> me but I am hoping that my age and experience as an
> education assistant and
> early childhood educator will give me the upper hand
> when contract positions
> open for interviews.
> So if you have the chance, whether it's
> correspondence or not - go for it!
> That's it.
>
> Penni Stoddart B.A., E.C.E., M.S.
> (working on getting more letters behind my name then
> my father who has a PhD
> in nuclear physics! PhD -bah, only means "piled
> higher and deeper")
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
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Vince Pitelka on mon 5 jun 06
post.
Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
> you are reeking of denial.
> I'll drop it for now as I obviously have nothing to
> offer on this.
Sorry, but I had to send this to Clayart, because I just couldn't let it go.
Yes, Elizabeth, you have nothing to offer on this except snippy, insulting,
disrespectful comments. I have conducted this discussion with respect for
everyone else who has participated, and you have replied with posts that are
insulting and patronizing and have little to do with the points I am making.
They are a construct fabricated in your own mind.
I'm reeking of denial? Elizabeth, listen to yourself.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Elizabeth Priddy on mon 5 jun 06
post.
vince,
you are reeking of denial.
I'll drop it for now as I obviously have nothing to
offer on this.
e
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Elizabeth Priddy on mon 5 jun 06
post.
Vince,
One bit of clarification, as you seem to think I am
completely nuts for thinking you have issues about
this topic.
vehemence:
"I don't think it is appropriate to make it
easier or more convenient. If a person really wants
an MFA, they need to make whatever changes are
necessary in order to allow them to make the
most of the opportunity - to really squeeze the
graduate experience for all it is worth."
extreme:
""Distance learning is a lame-ass way to pursue an MFA
in studio art."
I would question the intent or commitment of anyone
who wants an MFA but does not have the time or
inclination to do it in a brick and mortar
situation."
Maybe this topic justs jerks your chain a little too
hard, but the above was the tidied up version of what
you said.
I was going on pure conjecture about what the hell you
must be thinking to say such over the top stuff. I
may have been even 50% off base, but not all. And
since I am only reading what you write, not the whole
internal monolog you have running, I can only go by
what is here.
And from here in the cheap seats at the back, it looks
extremely defensive of a culture you bought into whole
immersion and whole-hog a long time ago.
That culture is going to get a complete over-haul
because of the internet.
I have read and sometimes reread this thread to think
about my own issues of whether or not I want to go
chasing an MFA. And I am thinking that I am not
really in need of one. I don't want to make my money
teaching at a tenure-track University post. I don't
care that much about whether my peers approve of my
work, although it is good to get feedback and I do
seek it out. And I wouldn't fit the jacket of the
"club" of MFA types, as I haven't found ANY jacket yet
in the world that didn't itch just a little.
Maybe I am just "a loner that seemed like a nice
enough guy."
I am making art and living it. My work could work as
a master's thesis. I have designed and am designing a
hybrid kiln. I am there but for a piece of paper that
is a 4 hour commute and (daycare for my baby) each
way.
I worked very long and hard over the years to unleash
myself from the alter of external validation and just
be freely. I think Kelly put it best when she
described it as a tiger cage. But she is 40-ish and
in relatively good health, from what I gather, and her
kids are approaching high school, not kindergarten.
If I expected to live til I was 80, I might just do
it. But those of us with time limitations have to
pick our battles and the irony of it is that when you
choose one, you fight harder than ever to get it.
And for me the work is "it." I am the same age as you
were when you got started on this path and just now
you seem to be hitting your stride in life, with
success and tenure, and a book, and workshops. Wow,
it must be cool to be you on some days!
I just don't have that kind of time, though. So I
will take the other path. (I ain't dyin tomorrow
folks, I just don't have the typical projected life
span, statistically speaking regarding my health. To
look at me, you'ld think I was freakin' 25, but the
innards say different)
Although I might be doing some work with Diana, and
have already begun it, I will not be off to MFA heaven
in the fall. I will be off to my studio and the road
with my Road-Quiln.
Only time will tell who had the most fun. It would be
a blast to just be in school again, but there is the
alternately delightful and cruel baggage life heaps on
that makes it not so simple a life.
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Bruce Glassford on mon 5 jun 06
post.
I think that a lot of the argument comes from the circumstances involved.
There are many reasons someone may want the degree, and their
circumstances will also vary. For some, the pursuit of the degree is to
get credentials or validation in the field. For others, it's to gain a
set of skills, for others it's the ability to share and trade techniques
with others.
Similarly, there's the question of availability to be at a college. Not
all folks live walking distance from a college, or even a drivable
distance. Many folks are a primary source of income for their household
or family - or a primary provider of other services (stay at home
parents, for example). Everyone's situation is different - and differs
over time. Kids grow up, houses get paid off, expenses drop off (or
kids arrive, new houses bought, expenses rise) - the only thing constant
is change..
The question is not whether a degree program is inherently bad or good,
but rather whether it is suited to the needs and constraints of the
prospective student. If the use of technology opens up the ability for
someone mid-career to pick up new skills, that's good. Is that better or
worse than a full-residency environment? Depends on the student - yes,
they may miss out on some interactions - but if the alternative is to
not have *any* of those interactions because of other commitments, is
that a bad thing?
If one is looking for just the credentials, the question is whether the
degree will be accepted in the environments to which you're looking for
approval as credentials. Whether you got them by immense sacrifice of 2
years of nothing else or worked more remotely, and proved your skills in
shorter bursts of presence won't change the validity - the proof is in
the skills. My first degree (BS in Computer Science) was primarily for
credentials - at the time I received it, I had been in the field seven
years as a full time paid programmer. Would an internet-based course
with feedback have given me the same level of improvement in skills?
Yes - and writing programs is as much an art as ceramics - although the
outcomes are usually somewhat more predictable (or so we programming
types try to convince ourselves & others).
If you're looking to learn skills - whatever gives you those skills will
help. The question becomes how do you learn best? In what environment?
(and can you find a way to get to that environment & learn..). A degree
by itself won't give you the skills - but neither will a degree program
necessarily give you the skills - it's all in the doing. Academic
quizzes aren't proof of learning a skill - but the feedback of an
assessment is often invaluable in determining what you missed or
alternative ways of looking at things. For many folks, a full time
immersion in a training environment will be best for honing their
existing skills and picking up others. For some folks, that immersion
environment will be impractical and other ways must be found - and what
works for one will not work for others.
So stop the war, folks - de gustibus non est disputandum ... nor in
matters of what works for each of us to learn..
Now if someone can only pack up some sense of form & send it my way, the
pots would appreciate it.
.... Bruce (who is being taught patience by the clay.... lots of
patience...)
Vince Pitelka on tue 6 jun 06
post.
I have enjoyed this conversation, but I'm not sure how much more can be said
about it. I will try to clarify my views on this, and perhaps people can
accept the fact that I am so committed to these views without feeling
threatened or offended. I have posted some messages that expressed things
in fairly passionate terms, because as a committed teacher of studio art in
a university, I know that distance education and online courses are going to
offer at best a watered down version of the on-site BFA or MFA. It's really
simple when you consider all of the points of view. A BFA or MFA is most
effective when accomplished in residence at a University, and there's no way
that a distance experience will be nearly as rich or as effective.
When it comes down to it, colleges and universities are pushing distance and
online education options because it allows them to collect more tuition with
the expenditure of far less university funds. It is NOT because it is as
effective. There is no way it can possibly be as effective, and that is
obvious to anyone who has completed a residency MFA.
It is really appalling when someone is accused of being "vehement" or
"extreme" or "in denial" just because they state their opinions in strong
terms and are not willing to accept any compromise. That happens too often
these days - anyone who is uncompromising about strong beliefs beliefs is
accused of being inflexible or stubborn. When you strongly believe
something, OF COURSE you are inflexible and stubborn, and that's not a bad
thing.
One post said something to the effect of "The Internet is here, and you have
to accept that it is going to change things." Yes, the Internet is here,
and it is wonderful, and it offers so many advantages in access to
information, but no, you DO NOT have to accept changes that are undesirable
or shortsighted. It is not inevitable that the quality of education will
continue to deteriorate, but it takes uncompromising people with strong
convictions to maintain the quality and focus of education.
The MFA degree is a specific thing. It is the terminal degree in studio
arts. It is not appropriate to create easier or more convenient versions of
the MFA degree for people in special situations, other than the
accommodations we are obligated to make (and of course want to make) for
physically or learning disabled people. Otherwise, if a person wants to get
an MFA, it is necessary for them to uproot themselves from their comfortable
circumstances and go live in the community where the university is located
and immerse themselves in the program. There should be no other option that
simplilfies or streamlines the degree program, because to do so is to make
the degree less effective and substantial, and to diminish its value for
every other person who has an MFA.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on tue 6 jun 06
post.
> You are now "the man" that is trying to keep the
> system the same, conserve it even, because it is the
> war you fought and you'll be damned if you are going
> to let anybody change the rules now that you are on
> top.
Oh my goodness, Elizabeth, you're just not listening at all, are you? I
certainly am not opposed to change or progress when it is a step forwards,
but I have learned a healthy skepticism of the supposed "universal" benefits
of technological advancement. In some cases, it just doesn't work. I AM
completely opposed to the deterioration of quality and dumbing down of
American higher education. It obviously is not possible for an online or
distance MFA program to offer as rich and effective an experience as an
on-site residency program, so why in the world would I give an inch on this?
Why would I support a degree program that diminishes the value of the MFA
for every other recipient? How many times do I have to say that?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Elizabeth Priddy on tue 6 jun 06
post.
Vince,
I am listening with both ears. As are others who are
busy designing programs that will come to pass in the
next few years. I have one answer to your technology
complaint, that it can't keep up or adequately replace
the in-person communication.
My husband is the IT guy for Duke University Marine
Lab. It is a component of Duke University in Durham
NC. He deals with the need to communicate in person
without being in the same city every day.
There are several graduate programs running and
students living in Beaufort and matricualting in a
combination of Beaufort and Durham campuses.
They teleconference, travel when same-room teaching is
necessary, videoconference...there is a virtual phone
booth continuously set up so that you go into a room
and with a room on the other end you have an impromptu
videoconference with as many people on either end as
you like with the only tech skill needed is to dial a
phone.
The technology is evolving to make it possible that
you can do your work in one city and have it reviewed
in another city with you "there" virtually. The work
can be shipped in and them have access to it with you
staying put and them pointing and touching and you
looking on.
For every technological reason you put forth, there is
an answer or could be an answer within hours or days
of the time you voice it.
IT stands for information technologies and it will
solve a lot of the distance problems. A little
planning and scheduling can do the rest. What might
happen is another tier of education might open up.
As Tony has noticed, it is the grey haired barrage
that is coming down the pike and they are used to
getting what they want. If MFA's without uprooting
their whoole lives to get it is what they want, they
will get it. And baby boomers so love degrees...
And technology will make it happen. And programs that
don't accommodate it will die on the vine. It might
take another decade for the shift to occur, but I
personnally would rather travel and work in person for
a couple of weeks and bring my stuff with me for that
than have to uproot my family and my family's primary
income to suit some arcane notion of how it ought to
be.
As an observer of a distance learning center here in
Beaufort designed to accommodate the needs of a marine
science lab associated with an inland University, I
can tell you that it is possible. They do their
research here and get their degree there. For years
at a time. Because here is where the fish are. And
there is where the sheepskin are.
So the time will come when MFA programs realize that
students are where their lives are and the university
is supposed to serve them, not the other way around.
Even though, in the past, it was just the opposite.
So it is like the weather here at the beach. If you
don't like the current state, just wait five minutes
and it will all change.
"MFA program" may be a whole nuther animal in about 10
years. And those that got the old-fashioned degress
will be relics of a rosier time for academics.
And the world will still be spinning slightly off
center, just as it is now.
Waiting patiently,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Elizabeth Priddy on tue 6 jun 06
post.
Would you be happy seeing a doctor
who got a degree through an intensive correspondence
course and
perhaps skipped a residency in favor of research?
-Kathy
__________________________________
We're talking about art here, personal expression. It
is not analogous to a heart held in your hands or a
pustule that has a certain odor of cancer.
I agree with what your gist is, though. It will
simply be a different experience when it is finally
hatched out.
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 7 jun 06
I suppose using IT as the delivery medium is the modern version of the =
system used twenty to thirty years ago in Oz. Given the acronym of DUCT =
it sounded quite pompous. Denoting Diverse Use of Current Technology it =
was pompous. Just a telephone with a public speaker system for group =
conferencing.
I am looking forward to the day when my computer delivers not only =
visual and aural information but those touchy feely smelly experiences =
as well. Just think about it. As Mel, Elizabeth, Malcolm, Tony or a =
newly graduated Kelly demonstrate how to wedge clay they say "This is =
what a well prepared mature clay smells like" and the aroma drifts =
across the screen ! ! !
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Kathy Forer on fri 9 jun 06
On Jun 7, 2006, at 3:25 AM, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
> I am looking forward to the day when my computer delivers not only =20=
> visual and aural information but those touchy feely smelly =20
> experiences as well. Just think about it. As Mel, Elizabeth, =20
> Malcolm, Tony or a newly graduated Kelly demonstrate how to wedge =20
> clay they say "This is what a well prepared mature clay smells =20
> like" and the aroma drifts across the screen ! ! !
iSmell!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/internet-odor.htm
iTouch!
Robot device mimics human touch
By Rebecca Morelle
Science reporter, BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5056434.stm
iFeel!
TV Screen, Not Couch, Is Required for This Session
By KIRK JOHNSON
Published: June 8, 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/us/08teleshrink.html
iPot!
Inside the 'New White Cube'
A Journey into the World of Virtual Ceramics
=A9 Ceramics Today
http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/virtual.htm
i3dPrint!
Structural Ceramics
http://www.mit.edu/~tdp/structural.html
iSantaClaus!
Santa Claus machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus_machine
Hang on to your virtual hats!
Kathy
--
Kathy Forer
BosWash megalopolis
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 10 jun 06
Dear Kathy Forer,
Thank you for those prompts.
As I said, I look forward to the day.=20
Best regards,
Ivor.
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