primalmommy on tue 6 jun 06
MFAs in general: it shouldn't surprise people that academics respect and
uphold the degrees they award. There are no Hondas in the employee
parking lot at the Toledo Jeep plant. Tony the high school teacher can't
have uncertified homeschoolers getting equal billing. In the military,
it doesn't matter how many life skills you have, if you're not a
General, you don't get to lead.
Of course degrees are the coin of the realm in academia. It's the whole
point. Nobody HAS to go there, and there are a million paths outside the
University/college world that judge by the skills you have or pots you
make and not the letters behind your name. Nobody makes you go to
college. (I've watched kids homeschool themselves through 12 grades and
keep right on self educating, taking the world by storm with a four year
jump on their college-bound pals).
If I am not a Baptist, I am not going to go sit in a Baptist church and
complain that they aren't respecting my beliefs. I have no right to
criticize the way they do things -- I simply don't belong there.
If I believe (and I do not) that academia is an enclave of smug,
overpaid sellouts who sit in an ivory tower and lord it over the great
unwashed, then why in the world would I want any part of it, or care how
I measure up to that particular yardstick?
I am not offended when the MFA profs like Vince preach the gospel of how
the challenge of earning the degree transformed their lives. They found
something good and want others to find it too, like the young men in
suits who show up on my doorstep with Bibles and The Good Word. I am
never rude or offended. Something transformed their lives and they want
to share, just like Vince. That doesn't obligate me to need it. I'm
pretty comfortable in my own beliefs, so none of that threatens me,
especially -- but I don't invite them to dinner, either. I've found my
own way, thanks.
Elizabeth, you know I agree with you about innovative methods of
education, self-educating and working outside the established system,
because we've been doing it for seven years at my house, despite the
financial sacrifices and inconvenience. I also agree that it would be
ridiculous for you to chuck that baby in storage to drive an absurd
distance and do an MFA. The resume of educational experience you trucked
out makes me wonder why you would even be tempted.
But I think you need to make up your mind: are you the skilled, self
sufficient potter, who has no need for the ivory tower's stamp of
approval? Or the melodramatic, fragile seedling, trampled by Vince's
opinions and thus abandoning any dreams of advancing your education?
I respect Vince, and see no need for you two to agree... but you're a
strong woman. Why you need his permission, encouragement or validation
to make your choices is beyond me. If somebody calling the on-line MFA a
"lame-assed" option can make you throw your hands in the air and quit,
I'd have to assume that either a) you didn't want that itchy MFA suit to
begin with, or b) your criticism of academia has a hint of sour grapes.
Babies don't keep. In about a week he will be taller than you, with boat
sized tennis shoes and a paper route. My little red haired baby came up
the hall tonight to show me he's growing hair under his arms.
Patience is a virgin ;0) There will be time again to do, or not do, time
when your hands and hours are your own.
Yours,
Kelly in Ohio
"Love many, trust few.
Always paddle your own canoe."
_______________________________________________________________
Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com
Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More!
Snail Scott on wed 7 jun 06
At 08:37 AM 6/7/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>So, is all of this just an educational consideration that is a matter
>of personal choice? Or is it a minimum employment requirement that is
>increasingly becoming a burden for all, and an exclusionary policy
>limiting the life possibilities of those who do not fit in the higher
>educational system?
It's a feedback loop. More people get degrees
to pursue some desirable goal. The keepers of
that goal have more people to choose from.
Eventually there are so many qualified people
that in order to narrow the field to a number
they can reasonably review, they raise the
requirement to an advanced degree. But, the
goal is still desirable, so more people go for
that higher qualification, to make the cut that
a lower degree was previously sufficient for.
Vince is right, in that the advanced degree (the
MFA in this case) has its own instrinsic rewards,
in addition to the credential. And Elizabeth is
right, in that some qualified people obtain the
same intrinsic rewards (skill, confidence,
knowledge, experience) by other means, and lack
only the credential.
But, as long as a whole lot of people want those
teaching jobs, they've got to narrow the applicant
field somehow. They could make the applicants
go on 'Fear Factor' or tapdance naked in the town
square or pay bribes (a common historical solution)
to narrow the field, but right now, they (the
'powers-that-be' in academic art) have decided to
require an MFA instead.
150 applications for a full-time college art
position is typical, even with the MFA requirement,
and then they've still got to narrow it down from
there. Some folks talk of creating a PhD in studio
art, just tonarrow it further. Not kidding.
As long as there are 150 applicants for every job,
there will be arbitrary hurdles. The MFA is just
the most obvious and easy-to-define one.
-Snail
p.s. I've got a job interview tomorrow. The only
one so far. If I get it, I'll earn $10,000 per
year without benefits. But, I'll get to teach.
Wahoo! it's the golden gravy train at last!
(Wish me luck. Really.)
-S.
Elizabeth Priddy on wed 7 jun 06
But I think you need to make up your mind: are you the
skilled, self
sufficient potter, who has no need for the ivory
tower's stamp of
approval? Or the melodramatic, fragile seedling,
trampled by Vince's
opinions and thus abandoning any dreams of advancing
your education?
I respect Vince, and see no need for you two to
agree... but you're a
strong woman. Why you need his permission,
encouragement or validation
to make your choices is beyond me. If somebody calling
the on-line MFA
a
"lame-assed" option can make you throw your hands in
the air and quit,
I'd have to assume that either a) you didn't want that
itchy MFA suit
to
begin with, or b) your criticism of academia has a
hint of sour grapes.
-Kelly
_____________________________________
Firstly, the melodramatic fragile seedling was being
very sarcastic.
The current model of suit being offered by Vince does
NOT fit at all. A little too tight in the ass for me.
So I may have to get a machine and make my own.
Because people with my skills who can teach as well as
I can need options other than $10 an hour community ed
jobs when the MFA ass hole at our local college can't
manage to make a kiln without "mortaring the walls
together so that they will crack on the first firing
and never work right ever" as one disgruntled student
passed on her experience of helping build a kiln that
has never fired right even one time.
My sour grapes are actually cherries and may turn to
wickid good wine in time.
And my argument with Vince convinced me that an online
program may be just perfect for me. See, our local
college can't hire me legally unless I have an MFA,
now that it has credits that can transfer to ECU.
Frankly ECU could use a teacher of my caliber for
throwing, but they can't hire me either unless I go
there and get a degree first, despite the fact that I
can throw anything, any clay, any form, any size. And
how do I know that boast is true. Because I know
myself and my skills (might take a week of practice
with large porcelain, but maybe not that long). Not
to mention the decorative arts. I am fully qualified
to teach throwing at the local community college and
they want to but cannot hire me (I taught there for 4
years before they changed their status regarding
credits). And that is why their equipment sits idle
this summer, when I could have daycare for free,
because their fully qualified teachers are off on
vacation for the summer. (I sought it out because I
really love teaching and was told that I was "no
longer qualified" about a month ago- but that yahoo
is, right.)
And all that chest thumping is to make one point. A
person with my skills and circumstances can't get
there from here with respect to a job that would pay
right for honest skills and there are people that
think that is a good thing that they need to defend.
But you are right. Those of us unwilling to pay the
going rate need to just stay out of it.
But I will sip my sour cherry wine at ease because the
times they are a changin'...
And good luck with your program. It picked a good
one. I bet you get told to take all that inspiration
down from your walls and search your self for for your
inspiration.
And like Dannon said, a clean studio is a productive
studio. Because when the idea strikes you in the
night, you don't really need to drive 45 minutes to
work it out in another building if your own studio is
20 feet away and clean. I bet you do a lot of your
thesis show at home. But that is just shadenfreude
toward the man.
Don't cut your hair for them. It is pretty.
Really, good luck to you and your family. I am sure
all of you will do well.
Yesterday my toddler learned to nod yes instead of
just nodding no to everthing. I am so glad I wasn't
on the road commuting and missing it.
E
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Malcolm Schosha on wed 7 jun 06
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, primalmommy wrote:
>
> MFAs in general: it shouldn't surprise people that academics respect and
> uphold the degrees they award. There are no Hondas in the employee
> parking lot at the Toledo Jeep plant. Tony the high school teacher can't
> have uncertified homeschoolers getting equal billing. In the military,
> it doesn't matter how many life skills you have, if you're not a
> General, you don't get to lead.
>
> Of course degrees are the coin of the realm in academia. It's the whole
> point. Nobody HAS to go there, and there are a million paths outside the
> University/college world that judge by the skills you have or pots you
> make and not the letters behind your name. Nobody makes you go to
> college. (I've watched kids homeschool themselves through 12 grades and
> keep right on self educating, taking the world by storm with a four year
> jump on their college-bound pals).
>
> If I am not a Baptist, I am not going to go sit in a Baptist church and
> complain that they aren't respecting my beliefs. I have no right to
> criticize the way they do things -- I simply don't belong there.
>
> If I believe (and I do not) that academia is an enclave of smug,
> overpaid sellouts who sit in an ivory tower and lord it over the great
> unwashed, then why in the world would I want any part of it, or care how
> I measure up to that particular yardstick?
>
.......................................................................
Hi Kelly,
The last paragraph is a pretty good parody of my views on college for potters.
But it is you previous paragraph that interests me. As I see it, the
problem does not come at the point of choosing a church, or a school;
but in what follows. When a person applies for a job, it is illegal
for employers to consider religion as a factor in their decision
process. That clearly is not the case with asking for information
about educational history. Here In NYC, where advanced degrees are so
common, and jobs so scarce; I have joked for years that if there is a
job for a moving man with three applicants, two with masters degrees
and one with a Ph.D., the Ph.D. will get the job. (There is a moving
company here with a name something like College Degree Movers, I see
their trucks around from time to time.)
Or consider this: The Metropolitan Museum of Art is one of the big
employers of artists in NYC. Virtually no one can make an independent
living from making and selling art. But the Metropolitan requires a
minimum of a BA even for security guards. My son-in-law (a very good
painter), who has an MFA, worked there for years.
So, is all of this just an educational consideration that is a matter
of personal choice? Or is it a minimum employment requirement that is
increasingly becoming a burden for all, and an exclusionary policy
limiting the life possibilities of those who do not fit in the higher
educational system?
Of course colleges and universities "uphold the degrees they award";
and, as you say, that is natural. What worries me is the consequences
of their doing that on the lives of people outside academia. What is
good for academia may not be good for everyone. That is my point.
I certainly wish you success in your studies.
Malcolm
David Gallagher on wed 7 jun 06
Malcolm
"So, is all of this just an educational
consideration that is a matter of personal choice?
Or is it a minimum employment requirement that is
increasingly becoming a burden for all, and an
exclusionary policy limiting the life possibilities of
those who do not fit in the higher educational
system?"
This is such interesting question, but if you expand
it
it falls into the realm of all formal education.
The same thing can be said about primary and secondary
education couldn't it?
Living in NYC, I can see where the competition for
jobs
is stiff and degree's are an easy way for an employer
to make decisions. In non specific jobs a degree only
indicates that the person can follow through on a
commitment. I know that sounds stupid, but it true.
Degrees are quick ways to classify people, and that
will obviously leave some exceptions out. But thinking
in a non humanistic bussiness sence, it doesn't matter
if marry is brilliant and doesnt have a degree and
bill is semi intelligent and has a degree and bill
gets
the job, its not really a big deal. Bill will probably
work out fine, and the company doesn't care if marry
is
brilliant. Its just a security guard job.
Is a degree an employment requirement? For many
jobs
yes it is. There are other jobs that pay well and dont
require a degree, trade jobs being good examples. But
if people want an office job that requires degree,
that
is what needs to happen.
It is the way of the world at this point. Bussiness
and profit are the focus, there is a glut of people to
service that focus, and people are there to produce
for
the bussiness. People are "human resources", think
about that classification. Thats what people are in
the
world today.
I think you and I are in step about education
really, it just comes out in different ways.
Here is the question I grapple with though. The way
things are now provides a system, to remove that
system
creates a vacum, and what fills that vacum?
The current system is exclusionary and not working
by many standards. But what is the fix?
Im heading back to NC for a couple days, so if I dont
get back its not me being snooty :)
D
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
| |
|
