Ken Nowicki on thu 8 jun 06
studio?)
Just a couple of comments on this from recent responses I rec'd from my
original post...
On 6/3 Patrick Cross wrote:
"An open groove in the floor seems much more
dangerous to me...something you might easily forget about if you went to the
studio to get something and didn't bother to turn on the lights. Stubbed
toes verses twisted ankle??"
I don't know about you Patrick, or where you live... but I don't go barefoot
in my studio. Maybe if I lived in Hawaii or some other lovely tropical
paradise I might be doing that... but normally I've got decent shoes on and a
"stubbed toe" won't be a problem. And truthfully, for me personally, I think it'd be
pretty hard to actually trip over 2" (or less) groove in the floor with a 1.5"
inverted piece of angle iron lying in the middle of it... flush mounted. I
must've walked over my driveway several thousand times, crossing the recessed
gate track to get my mail from the mailbox and come back (as well as a host of
other reasons) and never once tripped on that groove... even at night! Safety
on this doesn't concern me near as much as a track that's mounted right on the
surface of the floor. I just don't see it as a real problem... from my own
experience anyway.
On 6/4 Vince wrote:
"I think that's a great idea, as long as the potter is absolutely committed
to keeping that little trench clean. Otherwise, it would defeat the
purpose, because the accumulated debris in the little trench would start to
interfere with smooth movement of the car."
On 6/6 Tom Wirt wrote:
"I'm going to tag on with snail on this one. I fear your idea of a sunken
track is probably not a great one. Someone else mentioned the issue of
getting crud on the track, and constant cleaning. And that is the problem
of a gutter for the track. It takes very little to make the cart almost
impossible to move. you would have to vacuum the entire length every time
you load."
Vince & Tom...
I agree, that accumulated debris might prevent smooth rolling of the
wheels... but I tend to disagree with Tom's statement about how much it takes to make
the cart "almost impossible to move"... I mean... come on... how dirty does
your studio floor get on a regular basis? I don't know about you, but I keep
mine pretty clean for the most part. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I
can't see a great deal of obstructive crap getting into the track on a regular
basis... it's not like I'm kicking trimmings around or dropping clay and dirt on
the floor all the time. I keep a pretty clean studio though for the most
part... especially the floor... as I don't want to be kicking up clay dust and
breathing it all the time... I just assume (incorrectly perhaps) that most other
potters do the same. By the way, I was never really recommending this recessed
track idea for a college or classroom setting that has a great deal of foot
traffic and careless students slopping clay everywhere... I was thinking more of
what I'd do if this were my personal kiln room or one of a studio potter.
Either way... for me, it seems to me that keeping the trench clean is not that
big of a deal. I guess maybe I work cleaner than most... hell, I dunno? I
certainly don't think I'd need to vacuum the track for every little particle of dust
before each and every time I rolled those v-groove wheels down the track...
seems a little overkill to me... just my two cents.
The removable track is not a bad idea either, as long as it is not too
cumbersome to move it each and everytime you need to use it. The other worry I have
is this... how safe is a long piece of angle iron steel propped up against a
wall or somewhere else in your studio from someone or something bumping into it
and it falling to the ground and possibly hitting someone or some thing? I'm
sure there are ways to secure such a thing, bungee cords or something or
other, or tying it off so it doesn't fall... or trying to find a horizontal place
to lay it where nobody will trip over it... or cutting it into shorter piece
together sections. All would work, but seems like just more hassle to me. I like
the idea however someone posted about having the angle iron fold up and out
of the way into a brace to support the kiln door while the kiln is firing...
that sounded like a brilliant solution. However, that doesn't do much for having
it out of the way off the floor when loading or unloading the kiln.
It's great however to have so many opinions and people thinking about other
solutions or alternatives to the standard installation... this is how progress
is made and great ideas are born! Two heads are better than one... for
certain... (or 3000 for that matter!)
Best wishes,
- Ken
Patrick Cross on fri 9 jun 06
studio?)
Honestly Ken, it seems like you didn't really understand what I was saying
and you're somewhat presenting me as an idiot by omitting the main point I
was making...I don't appreciate that.
I was ALL FOR the idea.of installing the tracks in a groove...I was just
adding the thought of making a filler piece out of wood that would be flush
with the surface of the floor at all times other than when the kiln was
being opened.
And I don't walk around the studio barefoot. Perhaps I should have said
that having the tracks mounted to the surface of the floor might become a
hazard whereby someone crossing the room might catch the toe of their
SHOE on the track and stumble...maybe while carrying a ware board of freshly
thrown pots.
As for 1.5" angle iron.....The only car kiln that I've been involved with
was years ago at the first college I went to and we built it using 3" (or
it may have even been 3.5") angle iron for the tracks. It was a very big
kiln and exposed to the elements...all hardware had to be stout. So when I
was picturing your idea in my head, the groove was much larger than
apparently you meant. I don't care how good your shoes are...if you
side-step into a 3.5-4" groove you're probably going to really screw up your
ankle or fall on a concrete floor. Even with the angle iron filling most of
the groove, the scenario I was picturing would still leave enough negative
space between the crest of the angle iron and the edge of the groove to be
hazardous.
Now if you're a potter that hold sales at your studio and a patron is the
one that gets hurt...well, now we're talking a whopping big problem aren't
we.
Patrick Cross (cone10soda)
On 6/8/06, Ken Nowicki wrote:
>
> Just a couple of comments on this from recent responses I rec'd from my
> original post...
>
> On 6/3 Patrick Cross wrote:
>
> "An open groove in the floor seems much more
> dangerous to me...something you might easily forget about if you went to
> the
> studio to get something and didn't bother to turn on the lights. Stubbed
> toes verses twisted ankle??"
>
> I don't know about you Patrick, or where you live... but I don't go
> barefoot
> in my studio. Maybe if I lived in Hawaii or some other lovely tropical
> paradise I might be doing that... but normally I've got decent shoes on
> and a
> "stubbed toe" won't be a problem. And truthfully, for me personally, I
> think it'd be
> pretty hard to actually trip over 2" (or less) groove in the floor with a
> 1.5"
> inverted piece of angle iron lying in the middle of it... flush mounted. I
> must've walked over my driveway several thousand times, crossing the
> recessed
> gate track to get my mail from the mailbox and come back (as well as a
> host of
> other reasons) and never once tripped on that groove... even at night!
> Safety
> on this doesn't concern me near as much as a track that's mounted right on
> the
> surface of the floor. I just don't see it as a real problem... from my own
> experience anyway.
>
> On 6/4 Vince wrote:
>
> "I think that's a great idea, as long as the potter is absolutely
> committed
> to keeping that little trench clean. Otherwise, it would defeat the
> purpose, because the accumulated debris in the little trench would start
> to
> interfere with smooth movement of the car."
>
> On 6/6 Tom Wirt wrote:
>
> "I'm going to tag on with snail on this one. I fear your idea of a sunken
> track is probably not a great one. Someone else mentioned the issue of
> getting crud on the track, and constant cleaning. And that is the problem
> of a gutter for the track. It takes very little to make the cart almost
> impossible to move. you would have to vacuum the entire length every time
> you load."
>
> Vince & Tom...
>
> I agree, that accumulated debris might prevent smooth rolling of the
> wheels... but I tend to disagree with Tom's statement about how much it
> takes to make
> the cart "almost impossible to move"... I mean... come on... how dirty
> does
> your studio floor get on a regular basis? I don't know about you, but I
> keep
> mine pretty clean for the most part. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but
> I
> can't see a great deal of obstructive crap getting into the track on a
> regular
> basis... it's not like I'm kicking trimmings around or dropping clay and
> dirt on
> the floor all the time. I keep a pretty clean studio though for the most
> part... especially the floor... as I don't want to be kicking up clay dust
> and
> breathing it all the time... I just assume (incorrectly perhaps) that most
> other
> potters do the same. By the way, I was never really recommending this
> recessed
> track idea for a college or classroom setting that has a great deal of
> foot
> traffic and careless students slopping clay everywhere... I was thinking
> more of
> what I'd do if this were my personal kiln room or one of a studio potter.
> Either way... for me, it seems to me that keeping the trench clean is not
> that
> big of a deal. I guess maybe I work cleaner than most... hell, I dunno? I
> certainly don't think I'd need to vacuum the track for every little
> particle of dust
> before each and every time I rolled those v-groove wheels down the
> track...
> seems a little overkill to me... just my two cents.
>
> The removable track is not a bad idea either, as long as it is not too
> cumbersome to move it each and everytime you need to use it. The other
> worry I have
> is this... how safe is a long piece of angle iron steel propped up against
> a
> wall or somewhere else in your studio from someone or something bumping
> into it
> and it falling to the ground and possibly hitting someone or some thing?
> I'm
> sure there are ways to secure such a thing, bungee cords or something or
> other, or tying it off so it doesn't fall... or trying to find a
> horizontal place
> to lay it where nobody will trip over it... or cutting it into shorter
> piece
> together sections. All would work, but seems like just more hassle to me.
> I like
> the idea however someone posted about having the angle iron fold up and
> out
> of the way into a brace to support the kiln door while the kiln is
> firing...
> that sounded like a brilliant solution. However, that doesn't do much for
> having
> it out of the way off the floor when loading or unloading the kiln.
>
> It's great however to have so many opinions and people thinking about
> other
> solutions or alternatives to the standard installation... this is how
> progress
> is made and great ideas are born! Two heads are better than one... for
> certain... (or 3000 for that matter!)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> - Ken
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ken Nowicki on fri 9 jun 06
studio?)
Patrick wrote:
"Honestly Ken, it seems like you didn't really understand what I was saying
and you're somewhat presenting me as an idiot by omitting the main point I
was making...I don't appreciate that."
Patrick, if you feel I was "presenting you as an idiot" in my post... I am
truly sorry. It also seems to me as though you may be over-reacting a bit. I
never intended for my post to portray you as an "idiot", nor did I intend to
cause you any harm. Maybe I should have cut & pasted your suggestion about the
removable wooden track covers, I don't know. I'm sorry if you were offended that
it seemed out of context. But truthfully, I was commenting on something else,
and felt that the wooden boards had already been stated in your original post.
I actually thought your idea about the wooden boards might be a good idea,
but to be honest, I was a little concerned that they may eventually crack and
split in the center where the "V" was cut... but... this may really depend on
how much wood is left behind the "V-cut" and what kind of wood one uses. Still,
it's a valid idea to explore... I should've offered that up earlier I suppose.
Sorry.
"And I don't walk around the studio barefoot. Perhaps I should have said
that having the tracks mounted to the surface of the floor might become a
hazard whereby someone crossing the room might catch the toe of their
SHOE on the track and stumble...maybe while carrying a ware board of freshly
thrown pots."
Patrick, did you even SEE my second post... my "correction"...the follow up
that I sent IMMEDIATELY after I realized my mistake???
I publicly admitted my mistake in front of everyone here, immediately after I
realized it... and offered my apologies to you for misreading your post, and
incorrectly commenting on it. Once I realized my error and what you meant, I
tried to correct it as soon as I could. What more do you want me to do about
it? I'm sorry but most of us have done it before... that sinking feeling that we
get when we realize that we've made an error online... and it's too late...
we've already hit the "send now" button. You can't get it back, it's gone for
good. I'm human, what can I say?
"As for 1.5" angle iron.....The only car kiln that I've been involved with
was years ago at the first college I went to and we built it using 3" (or
it may have even been 3.5") angle iron for the tracks. It was a very big
kiln and exposed to the elements...all hardware had to be stout. So when I
was picturing your idea in my head, the groove was much larger than
apparently you meant. I don't care how good your shoes are...if you
side-step into a 3.5-4" groove you're probably going to really screw up your
ankle or fall on a concrete floor. Even with the angle iron filling most of
the groove, the scenario I was picturing would still leave enough negative
space between the crest of the angle iron and the edge of the groove to be
hazardous."
Okay, I get your point here. We're talking about different dimensions on
different kiln layouts is all. I suppose that DEPENDING on what SIZE angle iron
and wheels are used... the gap in the channel could either be "no problem"... or
"watch your step!". Also, I wasn't taking into account of anyone wearing high
heels (as someone else pointed out) or patrons walking around my kiln during
a studio sale... my mistake. I don't wear high heels (sorry Wayne ) and I
don't have patrons walking near my kiln. But if I did hold studio sales where
patrons might be walking around near my kiln, your point about a lawsuit
waiting to happen is well noted.
Let's put this thread to bed... I'm ready to move on...
Best regards,
- Ken
Ken Nowicki
Port Washington, New York
RakuArtist@aol.com
Charter Member Potters Council
Patrick Cross on fri 9 jun 06
studio?)
Moving on sounds good Ken, but there are a few things I need to say first.
OK, I'm not as thin-skinned as it seems you may have thought. I was merely
pointing out that since you took those two sentences of mine out of the
original context of my first post to this thread you essentially had me
appearing to be one of these people that is just always...(read with extreme
melodrama)....Oh woe is me!...Here's this HUGE problem of what to do about
these evil tracks in the studio...There's just absolutely NO solution to
this situation...I'm DEFINITELY going to end up with 'either a stubbed toe
OR a twisted ankle' no matter WHAT I do...and no one is EVER going to come
up with a suitable remedy...Life is just SO dismal and hopeless...why even
bother trying to come up with something better.
Well, of course I'm exaggerating, but only to make a point. I rarely post
to ClayArt but it's almost always to try and come with a solution to
problems like this. There's not much that annoys me more than ending up
with an avoidable injury...I personally, am NOT a very good patient when I
become incapacitated. Since I primarily throw on a Leach style wheel an
injured foot would not make me a very happy potter and no one would want to
be around me until the foot was better.
And no, I did not see your addendum/correction message...apparently I
mistakenly sent it to the trash without reading it...but I did retrieve and
read it a few minutes ago. This sort of goes along with the point of me
standing up for myself in replying to your summary post...not that I was
deeply offended or hurt now...just pointing out a miscommunication. Like
most, I just don't have the time to read ALL the ClayArt messages that come
to my inbox. I think like most folks I quickly skim through the message
titles and check off all the the ones that don't appear relevant or
interesting and promptly escort them to "The Wrecking Goombas" in my waste
management facility...Like, "Here fellas, I's got some messages I need *'taken
care of'* if you know what I mean." Anyway, I'd like to think that when
I do make suggestions on ClayArt that I'm one of the posters that actually
gets read...and that whatever I come up with solution-wise is of some
benefit to someone...or prompts an even better idea from someone else.
However, and this is my point... If someone read your summary without coming
in on the thread from the beginning, I come off as someone probably not
worth reading you see? That's what I didn't appreciate. sniff, sniff...I
just want to feel needed....
Now specifically about the possibility of the wood filler skid (let's name
it) "spitting"...you're correct...it would all depend on the scale of the
groove. So, let's just look at the idea in theory.
There are any number of different materials that would work...some better
than others...some more expensive and/or complicated to construct which
would fill the bill for this one possible solution. I suggested a pressure
treated 4 X 4 because it would be pretty much an ideal size...a standard
size...and easily replaceable if need be. Plus, what's an 8' treated 4 X 4
cost nowadays...like $4-5?
In the construction of a new kiln pad they could be used as the form for the
groove...placed down in position before the concrete is poured...and gaped
off the grade to allow the appropriate thickness of concrete to flow
underneath them. After the pad cured they would be removed and the track
secured in the bottom. I would also suggest that if this route were taken,
there's no reason for the crest of the track to be flush with the final
surface level of the concrete pad. I would say in this application the
crest of the angle iron would be 1 3/4" down from the top of the groove. I
wish I could scan a simple sketch along with this post...would make things
so much easier to explain. Draw a 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" square...then draw the
diagonals from each corner. The bottom triangle would be removed to
accommodate the track.
Perhaps some of these new composits they're making for decks would be a more
stable material. Although I think the posts made out of this new stuff are
hollow and that would not work for this. Wait, maybe it would?...Just cut
off one side of the post leaving a C-shape cross section...maybe the walls
of that stuff are thick enough to support foot traffic. They might not
stand up to a hand truck with boxes of clay rolling across them though.
Another but more expensive solution to this would be to have a gallery lip
along the groove (or maybe trough would be a better word.) The opening
could be covered with a long narrow rectangle of 1/4" thick steel
plate...maybe the plate would have a 1" diameter finger hole on either end
to make it easy to remove when need be. This might make more sense than 4 X
4 skids considering the tracks do lead to a kiln...fireproof.
Now maybe someone else has something to add...so I'll shut up.
Patrick Cross (cone10soda)
On 6/9/06, Ken Nowicki wrote:
>
> Patrick wrote:
>
> "Honestly Ken, it seems like you didn't really understand what I was
> saying
> and you're somewhat presenting me as an idiot by omitting the main point I
> was making...I don't appreciate that."
>
> Patrick, if you feel I was "presenting you as an idiot" in my post... I am
> truly sorry. It also seems to me as though you may be over-reacting a bit.
> I
> never intended for my post to portray you as an "idiot", nor did I intend
> to
> cause you any harm. Maybe I should have cut & pasted your suggestion about
> the
> removable wooden track covers, I don't know. I'm sorry if you were
> offended that
> it seemed out of context. But truthfully, I was commenting on something
> else,
> and felt that the wooden boards had already been stated in your original
> post.
>
> I actually thought your idea about the wooden boards might be a good idea,
> but to be honest, I was a little concerned that they may eventually crack
> and
> split in the center where the "V" was cut... but... this may really depend
> on
> how much wood is left behind the "V-cut" and what kind of wood one uses.
> Still,
> it's a valid idea to explore... I should've offered that up earlier I
> suppose.
> Sorry.
>
> "And I don't walk around the studio barefoot. Perhaps I should have said
> that having the tracks mounted to the surface of the floor might become a
> hazard whereby someone crossing the room might catch the toe of their
> SHOE on the track and stumble...maybe while carrying a ware board of
> freshly
> thrown pots."
>
> Patrick, did you even SEE my second post... my "correction"...the follow
> up
> that I sent IMMEDIATELY after I realized my mistake???
>
> I publicly admitted my mistake in front of everyone here, immediately
> after I
> realized it... and offered my apologies to you for misreading your post,
> and
> incorrectly commenting on it. Once I realized my error and what you meant,
> I
> tried to correct it as soon as I could. What more do you want me to do
> about
> it? I'm sorry but most of us have done it before... that sinking feeling
> that we
> get when we realize that we've made an error online... and it's too
> late...
> we've already hit the "send now" button. You can't get it back, it's gone
> for
> good. I'm human, what can I say?
>
> "As for 1.5" angle iron.....The only car kiln that I've been involved with
> was years ago at the first college I went to and we built it using 3" (or
> it may have even been 3.5") angle iron for the tracks. It was a very big
> kiln and exposed to the elements...all hardware had to be stout. So when
> I
> was picturing your idea in my head, the groove was much larger than
> apparently you meant. I don't care how good your shoes are...if you
> side-step into a 3.5-4" groove you're probably going to really screw up
> your
> ankle or fall on a concrete floor. Even with the angle iron filling most
> of
> the groove, the scenario I was picturing would still leave enough negative
> space between the crest of the angle iron and the edge of the groove to be
> hazardous."
>
> Okay, I get your point here. We're talking about different dimensions on
> different kiln layouts is all. I suppose that DEPENDING on what SIZE angle
> iron
> and wheels are used... the gap in the channel could either be "no
> problem"... or
> "watch your step!". Also, I wasn't taking into account of anyone wearing
> high
> heels (as someone else pointed out) or patrons walking around my kiln
> during
> a studio sale... my mistake. I don't wear high heels (sorry Wayne ) and
> I
> don't have patrons walking near my kiln. But if I did hold studio sales
> where
> patrons might be walking around near my kiln, your point about a lawsuit
> waiting to happen is well noted.
>
> Let's put this thread to bed... I'm ready to move on...
>
> Best regards,
>
> - Ken
>
>
> Ken Nowicki
> Port Washington, New York
> RakuArtist@aol.com
> Charter Member Potters Council
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
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