claybair on mon 12 jun 06
As I read Lili's posting I started musing on this thread which has
been verrrry long and will continue to be so in ages to come.
That said I imagined a field of beautiful flowers as far as my eye could
see.
Some of the flowers would have been blown in by the wind,
some planted by local people casually scattering handfuls
of seeds from their gardens, others distributing seeds from
purchased packets and yet others coming from afar at great
personal expense to plant the seeds they kept safe in expensive
hermetically sealed containers.
The field, beautiful, inspiring and original in it's beauty is the issue.
Ultimately it's the work..... not how it got there.
We all have different learning styles some lend themselves to
formal training others do not......... it really doesn't matter...
the work does!
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
Tucson, AZ
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lili Krakowski
Dear Marcia:
I do not think I ever “bashed” or derided professors in any way. In fact,
one of my best sisters (actually my only one) is a Professor at Brooklyn
College. Some of my best friends are/were Professors.
Yes, some professors I have known wear the title better than others. True
of all professionals.
Nor do I doubt for a minute that you were one great swell admirable
professor—as were Frans Wildenhain and Hobart Cowles with whom I studied.
And permit me to believe that the heroic labor you put in and the dedication
you have to your craft, impressed your students more than your degrees.
What I question--as I did in my earlier post:
1. That the University is the best place to study craft. The
University is not, I think, best for blue-collar skill learning. I still
prefer—prove me wrong—the old style apprenticeship or craft/trade school. We
should remember that Lucie Rie and both Wildenhains emerged from such, while
Leach and Cardew had universities degrees and learned their CRAFT later.
snip>
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Lili Krakowski on tue 13 jun 06
Dear Marcia:
I do not think I ever =93bashed=94 or derided professors in any way. In f=
act,=20
one of my best sisters (actually my only one) is a Professor at Brooklyn=20
College. Some of my best friends are/were Professors.
Yes, some professors I have known wear the title better than others. Tru=
e=20
of all professionals.
Nor do I doubt for a minute that you were one great swell admirable=20
professor=97as were Frans Wildenhain and Hobart Cowles with whom I studie=
d.=20
And permit me to believe that the heroic labor you put in and the dedicat=
ion=20
you have to your craft, impressed your students more than your degrees.
What I question--as I did in my earlier post:
1. That the University is the best place to study craft. The=20
University is not, I think, best for blue-collar skill learning. I still=20
prefer=97prove me wrong=97the old style apprenticeship or craft/trade sch=
ool. We=20
should remember that Lucie Rie and both Wildenhains emerged from such, wh=
ile=20
Leach and Cardew had universities degrees and learned their CRAFT later.
2. That the hue and cry for MFAs encourages many to seek them =96=
but=20
does it benefits the craft? I have no problem whatsoever (nor have I=20
expressed any) if people who have a mud-trail (surely paper-trail does no=
t=20
apply to clay) decide they want to study more=85 If THEY, at a mature l=
evel,=20
feel they will benefit more from a structured program than from other mea=
ns,=20
who am I to quibble? Again: what I am troubled by is the Zeitgeist howli=
ng=20
at the door.
3. Cost. Time and cost. As I suggested in the post to which y=
ou=20
responded, I expect you remember a time when college was affordable. One=
=20
year=92s work at minimum wage paid for one year of college then. I am=20
concerned=97and not only in craft=97at the burden of debt people saddle=20
themselves with for a degree that in many cases will NOT increase their=20
earning power. Is it the best for the craft?
4. If the 80 year old woman WANTED a Harvard degree, I am glad s=
he=20
got it. If the 80-year old woman had wanted to sail alone around the wor=
ld=20
and did, I would be glad for her. If the 80-year old woman had wanted to=20
emulate Beatrice Wood who said her longevity was due to young men and=20
chocolate, I would be glad for her. If indeed someone goes to University=
to=20
learn more, fine. But far, far too many go because others are going=85be=
cause=20
they feel pressured to go, having been told it will make them =93real=94.
5. My post addressed the notion that if one questions the above=
=20
one is an anti-intellectual! Nifty-pooh as we say in anti-intellectual=20
circles (scratching our red necks with the tabs from our beer cans! )
I had thought intellectuals were controversialists, skeptics, questioner=
s,=20
refusing to accept fashion--people who lock the door against the Zeitgeis=
t=20
(Satan as far as I am concerned) and find their own way and think their =
own=20
thoughts. OT a bit, I think there is far too much conformity and pressu=
re=20
to conformity in what passes as Intellectual Circles today. (I do not wi=
sh=20
to pursue this here, not cutting off debate, but, if you care, lettuce=20
discuss it off-list) ) And, as D P Moynihan already pointed out years ag=
o=20
this pressure to conformity infects the University, as the papers tell us=
=20
continually=85.
I feel impelled to add this: I am in constant awe of the 18th and 19th=20
century Intellectuals who did not go to University, or, if they did, did =
not=20
go beyond their first degree. The finest intellectuals I have known have=
=20
NOT needed the University to guide or inspire or support their pursuits. =
I=20
think today's independent scholars do not stand a chance=85and this is=20
beginning to affect craft.
I was blessed in having as a surrogate mother a classical musician some=20
fifty years older than I. She gave me a motto to live by. =93We were hap=
py,=94=20
she said, =93because we ignored =91what is said, and what is done.=92=94 =
(Sounds=20
better in original French) THIS is what is being attacked today=85People=
ask=20
about one's diplomas--not what one knows.
And THAT is why I protested the notion that to question Academia=92s meri=
t in=20
the crafts is to be an Anti-Intellectual.
I have I am sure mentioned more than once that I grew up in an Orthodox=20
Jewish household. One needs no more bona fides than that to establish o=
ne=20
knows how to respect learning.
.
Marcia Selsor on tue 13 jun 06
Dear Lili,
You studied at Rochester School for American Craft s with Frans =20
Wildenhain and Hobart Cowles . I studied with Bill Daley, Paula =20
Winokur, and Petras Vaskys at the Phila. College of Art.
Then I studied with Nick Vergette who was educated at the Rochester =20
School for American Craft after WWII.
Do you think Nick's education changed when he was hired by Southern =20
Illinois University?
I still don't understand your attitude towards the education system. =20
Where did anyone ever say getting a university degree would make them =20=
"real"? We all learn where we can. I learned to pull handles from my =20
studio neighbor who was apprenticing with Byron Temple while =20
attending Art School. Note to Kelly: I taught pulling handles.
The Spanish have a saying, one needs only to travel with what is in =20
our minds. I guess it doesn't matter where one gets their knowledge.
Marcia Selsor
http://marciaselsor.com
On Jun 13, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Lili Krakowski wrote:
> Dear Marcia:
>
> I do not think I ever =93bashed=94 or derided professors in any way. =
In =20
> fact, one of my best sisters (actually my only one) is a Professor =20
> at Brooklyn College. Some of my best friends are/were Professors.
> Yes, some professors I have known wear the title better than =20
> others. True of all professionals.
> Nor do I doubt for a minute that you were one great swell admirable =20=
> professor=97as were Frans Wildenhain and Hobart Cowles with whom I =20
> studied. And permit me to believe that the heroic labor you put in =20
> and the dedication you have to your craft, impressed your students =20
> more than your degrees.
>
> What I question--as I did in my earlier post:
>
> 1. That the University is the best place to study craft. =20
> The University is not, I think, best for blue-collar skill =20
> learning. I still prefer=97prove me wrong=97the old style =20
> apprenticeship or craft/trade school. We should remember that Lucie =20=
> Rie and both Wildenhains emerged from such, while Leach and Cardew =20
> had universities degrees and learned their CRAFT later.
>
>
>
> 2. That the hue and cry for MFAs encourages many to seek =20
> them =96but does it benefits the craft? I have no problem whatsoever =20=
> (nor have I expressed any) if people who have a mud-trail (surely =20
> paper-trail does not apply to clay) decide they want to study =20
> more=85 If THEY, at a mature level, feel they will benefit more from =20=
> a structured program than from other means, who am I to quibble? =20
> Again: what I am troubled by is the Zeitgeist howling at the door.
>
>
>
> 3. Cost. Time and cost. As I suggested in the post to =20
> which you responded, I expect you remember a time when college was =20
> affordable. One year=92s work at minimum wage paid for one year of =20=
> college then. I am concerned=97and not only in craft=97at the burden =20=
> of debt people saddle themselves with for a degree that in many =20
> cases will NOT increase their earning power. Is it the best for =20
> the craft?
>
>
>
> 4. If the 80 year old woman WANTED a Harvard degree, I am =20
> glad she got it. If the 80-year old woman had wanted to sail alone =20=
> around the world and did, I would be glad for her. If the 80-year =20
> old woman had wanted to emulate Beatrice Wood who said her =20
> longevity was due to young men and chocolate, I would be glad for =20
> her. If indeed someone goes to University to learn more, fine. =20
> But far, far too many go because others are going=85because they feel =20=
> pressured to go, having been told it will make them =93real=94.
>
>
>
>
>
> 5. My post addressed the notion that if one questions the =20=
> above one is an anti-intellectual! Nifty-pooh as we say in anti-=20
> intellectual circles (scratching our red necks with the tabs from =20
> our beer cans! )
>
>
>
> I had thought intellectuals were controversialists, skeptics, =20
> questioners, refusing to accept fashion--people who lock the door =20
> against the Zeitgeist (Satan as far as I am concerned) and find =20
> their own way and think their own thoughts. OT a bit, I think =20
> there is far too much conformity and pressure to conformity in what =20=
> passes as Intellectual Circles today. (I do not wish to pursue =20
> this here, not cutting off debate, but, if you care, lettuce =20
> discuss it off-list) ) And, as D P Moynihan already pointed out =20
> years ago this pressure to conformity infects the University, as =20
> the papers tell us continually=85.
>
>
>
>
>
> I feel impelled to add this: I am in constant awe of the 18th and =20
> 19th century Intellectuals who did not go to University, or, if =20
> they did, did not go beyond their first degree. The finest =20
> intellectuals I have known have NOT needed the University to guide =20
> or inspire or support their pursuits. I think today's independent =20=
> scholars do not stand a chance=85and this is beginning to affect =
craft.
>
>
>
> I was blessed in having as a surrogate mother a classical musician =20
> some fifty years older than I. She gave me a motto to live by. =93We =20=
> were happy,=94 she said, =93because we ignored =91what is said, and =
what =20
> is done.=92=94 (Sounds better in original French) THIS is what is =20=
> being attacked today=85People ask about one's diplomas--not what one =20=
> knows.
>
>
>
> And THAT is why I protested the notion that to question Academia=92s =20=
> merit in the crafts is to be an Anti-Intellectual.
>
>
>
> I have I am sure mentioned more than once that I grew up in an =20
> Orthodox Jewish household. One needs no more bona fides than that =20=
> to establish one knows how to respect learning.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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