Dave Finkelnburg on sun 6 aug 06
I have to second Alan's comment. I use a Venco
deairing mill...and it pugs and deairs beautifully!
However, it is a poor clay mixer at best. Three
passes through the mill results in moderately decent
mixing.
If I want to equalize moisture, and I am patient, I
can mix wet and dryer clay and cover very well in
plastic bags or big sheets and store it...the moisture
does migrate.
When I want to mix clay, though, I need to go the
slip route...which is, scientifically speaking, the
BEST way to make and mix clay.
Good potting,
Dave Finkelnburg
--- Alan P wrote:
> A pug is NOT a mixer
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Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 7 aug 06
Dear Dave Finkelnburg,
<<....When I want to mix clay, though, I need to go the slip =
route...which is, scientifically speaking, the BEST way to make and mix =
clay...>>
Such words of wisdom are music to my ears. I am sure that clay solids =
that do not interface with an excess of water have inferior mechanical =
properties.
If there is insufficient water then plastic strength of the clay is =
compromised. Plastic strength is dependent on Hydrogen Bonding to bind =
water molecules to each other and to clay particles.
Saturation and Blunging (Mixing as a thin fluid) ensure high plastic =
quality.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Lee Love on tue 8 aug 06
On 8/7/06, Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> I have to second Alan's comment.
I would second it, if it had anything to do with what I was talking
about. ;^)
> However, it is a poor clay mixer at best. Three
> passes through the mill results in moderately >decent mixing.
3 times is what we would usually do. And then the clay is set
aside and pugged again just before use. Because it comes soft and
not dry, a mixer doesn't make as much sense. I have not seen
anything like a Soldner or a bread mixer in Japan so far (they might
exist, but I have only seen PeterPugger type mixers, combined with a
pugmill.)
The clay was always given a final wedging before use, so a deairing
pugmill isn't so important.
Most of my clay is thrixotropic because of the minimal
processing, compared to clay bodies made from industrial materials.
It will seem hard at first, but if you throw the bag on the ground 3
to 5 times, it becomes soft.
Several of the more expensive clays, like Mogusa/shino clay and
Aussie porcelain, are also bagged in paper bags over the plastic. I
think this helps keep it from drying out quickly.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Alan P on tue 8 aug 06
Hello Dave, Hello Ivor,
<< the slip route ... the BEST way to make and mix clay>> Exactly! The
traditional slip making processes used extensively worldwide offer many
advantages of dry processing, including:
1. Maximising the wetting of particles and hence optimise the physical
properties
2. More complete and intimate mixing
3. Suppression of dusts
4. Permits a wider selection of raw materials to be used
5. Allows sieving and magnet treatment
6. Significantly reduces the content of any soluble salts, and hence their
detrimental effects
More process equipment are needed but these are generally outweighed by the
technical advantages
Regards,
Alan
Dave Finkelnburg on tue 8 aug 06
Alan,
First, I appreciate you thoughtful, intelligent
input on these subjects.
Not to be terse, but simply concise, how do you
remove soluble salts with the slip process of clay
making? I'm afraid my process, evaporation, retains
the solubles. Thanks!
Dave Finkelnburg
--- Alan P wrote:
> Hello Dave, Hello Ivor,
> << the slip route ... the BEST way to make and mix
> clay>> Exactly! The
> traditional slip making processes used extensively
> worldwide offer many
> advantages of dry processing, including:
> 1. Maximising the wetting of particles and hence
> optimise the physical
> properties
> 2. More complete and intimate mixing
> 3. Suppression of dusts
> 4. Permits a wider selection of raw materials to be
> used
> 5. Allows sieving and magnet treatment
> 6. Significantly reduces the content of any soluble
> salts
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Alan P on tue 8 aug 06
Lee,
In reply to my comment that wet processing requires more equipment than dry
processing you noted <miners and processors here in Mashiko just use a blunger and screens to
filter the rocks out and then dry the slip in big concrete beds and scoop
this out into bisqued pots.>> My response:
1. << ... here in Mashiko ...>> the pottery world is much bigger than
Mashiko
2. Dry processing of clay body can involve as little as one piece of
equipment, such as the Peter Pugger. Yet you claim this is more than
<> One IS less than
four!
3. A traditional wet process route can involve blungers, mixing tanks,
sieves, magnets, slip transfer pumps, filter press and filter press pumps.
This type of system widely used across the world. An alternative wet
process route also widely used replaces the blunger and mixing tank with
ball mills although the other equipment is similar. Hence the reason for my
statement <>
You also stated <necessary if your clay is going to have any life.>> My response:
1. I made no mention of organics
2. Of course wet processing can reduce soluble salts. It may not if water
is evaporated in drying beds but it most certainly does if filter presses
are used, which are extensively in many operations world wide
Regards,
Alan
Alan P on tue 8 aug 06
Hello Dave,
Thanks for the comment, and your question. Yes evaporation would retain the
soluble salts in the system, however the list where I noted this was only
brief (terse!?) so to expand: it is the filter pressing of wet processed
materials, the slip, that reduces the solubles
Kind regards,
Alan
Taylor Hendrix on tue 8 aug 06
Hey Lee,
I bet there are parallels back here alright, but nobody has the
wherewithall to go digging for it. I really wish I were living in a
clay-rich part of TX. It is a desert here and not just in native
clays, donca know.
You lucky duck, you.
Taylor in R TX
On 8/8/06, Lee Love wrote:
...
These natural, not industrial aspects of potter specific
> clay are what make clays like mogusa and gotomaki unique, with no
> parallels back home.
...
Lee Love on wed 9 aug 06
On 8/9/06, Taylor Hendrix wrote:
> Hey Lee,
>
> I bet there are parallels back here alright, but nobody has the
> wherewithall to go digging for it.
Do you think so? It would please me if it were so and would save me
from trying to design a similar clay for use back home (I am hoping to
spend time working in Minnesota in the future.)
Most of the clays I can buy don't have the qualities of mogusa
and that is why it costs so much (about 5 times more expensive than my
usual clay.)
These clays can be throwing thick but do not weigh a lot,
because they are so open.
What they say about the mogusa that was traditionally used with
shino ware, is that they still seem somewhat "raw", after firing. You
can still "taste" the clay, after it is fired. Also, this openness
gives the bowls made with this clay insulating properties. Part of
these characteristic are related to the low temperature the shinos
were fired at, for a long time.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee Love on wed 9 aug 06
On 8/9/06, Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> Not to be terse, but simply concise, how do you
> remove soluble salts with the slip process of clay
> making? I'm afraid my process, evaporation, retains
> the solubles. Thanks!
You are right Dave his makes no sense. Blunged slip is the way
clay is processed here and the process retains organics and solubles.
When the water evapaporates, the solubles are left behind. That is
way some of my clay bodies are thixotropic.
What you have to do to take solubles out, is to add extra water,
let the slip settle, and then siphon of the top water. You have to
do this several times. This is "washing" the slip, the same way wood
ash is washed for glazes.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee Love on wed 9 aug 06
On 8/8/06, Alan P wrote:
> More process equipment are needed but these are generally outweighed by the
> technical advantages
Actually, less equipment is necessary. Many clay miners and
processors here in Mashiko just use a blunger and screens to filter
the rocks out and then dry the slip in big concrete beds and scoop
this out into bisqued pots.
It doesn't reduce the solubles and organics which are
necessary if your clay is going to have any life. Most of my clays
will quickly stink to high heaven in the water bowl, especially in the
summer. These natural, not industrial aspects of potter specific
clay are what make clays like mogusa and gotomaki unique, with no
parallels back home.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Alan P on wed 9 aug 06
Dear Lee,
You note to Dave that < ... his makes no sense> If I may comment myself:
1. It would be at least polite if you referred by name rather than being as
rude to write
2. Your posts seem to show limited experience, or dare I say limited
thinking: <retains organics and solubles. When the water evapaporates, the solubles
are left behind.>> Filter pressing of wet processed materials, the slip,
does reduces soluble salts although evaporation does not
3. And also <> it is
very, very uncommon to find clay bodies that are not thixotropic
Regards,
Alan
Alan P on thu 10 aug 06
Dear Lee
Im sure hearing that you <> is a great relief to
many
Regards,
Alan
Lee Love on thu 10 aug 06
On 8/9/06, Alan P wrote:
> 2. Your posts seem to show limited experience
Dearest Alan X0X0X,
You can see some of my work here:
http://potters.blogspot.com/
I showed you mine, now show me yours. Let our work speak about
our experience.
Until I see your work, I have nothing else to say.
With Smurfie Regards, X;^)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee Love on thu 10 aug 06
On 8/9/06, Alan P wrote:
> brief (terse!?) so to expand: it is the filter pressing of wet processed
> materials, the slip, that reduces the solubles
Oh Dearest Alan ,
The dilution of the soluables that allow removal. You can
press the water out or siphon them off after the clay settles.
Usually, the first wash removes them. But 2 or 3 washes are insurance.
Washing is not much work if you use a siphon. You can do it
first thing in the morning several mornings in a row.
With Smurfie regards, ;^)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Jeanie Silver on fri 11 aug 06
Alan
I'm hoping, that the better angels of your nature will reassert themselves
soon, so that you can understand that your style of discourse is not suited
to clayart. Pissing contests, although presumably interesting to the
participants, are truly boring to observers. I'm sure you have much to
contribute to Clayart, but so far, the tone of your communication is
drowning out what you have to say...
Sincerely
Jeanie in Pa.
Alan P on mon 14 aug 06
Hello Jeanie,
Thank you for your gentle admonishment, however I think it was just a
little unkind due to imbalance. I am not interested in a pissing contest,
not least as whilst I could piss high on some subjects I would hardly
manage a dribble on others! Im sorry that you consider that <of =91my=92 communication is drowning out what =91I=92 have to say>> however=
it was
simply replying in kind: my comments about subjects of which I have some
considerable experience were ridiculed, and my request to be referred to by
name when criticising my comments was met with considerable sarcasm
Kind regards,
Alan
Jeanie Silver on mon 14 aug 06
Hi Allen
That post I regretted a nanosecond after I sent it out. The truth is. I
don't read much of what Lee posts, for reasons you have discovered. I also
agree with you that criticism should be addressed directly to the person to
whom it was intended. I stand by what I said in terms of the kind of
discourse that doesn't get in the way of what one intends to communicate,
but I should have sent it just to you and not to the list. Please chalk
that up to the fact that I only recently realized that'reply' and 'reply
all' are two different things. I should have hit the former, but didn't
think in time...what happens when fossils come out of the mudpitand embrace
technology...scary stuff...Can we begin again?
Jeanie in Pa.
Ben Shelton on tue 15 aug 06
Alan,
YOU are coming off as the aggresor. I dunno what the struggle is about but
the easiest way to go is post facts that you can back up and let the rest go.
Just let it go.
The rest is just a waste of time.
There is so much information that we cannot share via the web that we no
doubt missunderstand each other to a great deal. Add to that the fact that
even when some people are wrong, you cannot change their minds. Even when
you prove them wrong.
Just post the facts and ignore the rest and maybe we can avoid the flame wars.
Please, for the health of clayart, let it go man.
The smart folks will take the good information and make good work with what
they have learned.
I have found some great info in some of your posts but I don't have time or
interest to wade through the arguments. I have therefore skipped many of
your posts too and that is bad for the greater knowledge.
Hope this settles well with you and does not offend,
Ben
Alan P on wed 16 aug 06
Hello Jeanie,
<> No problem ... I appreciated not just the gentle
tone of your original post but that you were gracious enough to address it
to me directly
Kind regards,
Alan
Alan P on wed 16 aug 06
Hello Ben,
Thank you for your comments, and no they did not offend. I am sorry that
you considered that I was << ... coming off as the aggresor>>, however
ridicule and belittling will put me on the defensive. Nevertheless I m glad
that you > as my intention was
solely to highlight erroneous information
Kind regards,
Alan
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