pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 20 sep 06
Hi Vince, Ivor,
Well, if there are Anaerobes or Aerobes, and or
some organics in the Clay, there might be gasses
that could be interesting...or even flammible...
Weren't there some discussions recently about
'stinky' Clay and so on?
Too, Science as interest, as passion, as
curiosity, as investment in arrangeing co-relates,
wants to know...and it does not need any more
reason than that.
Best wishes,
Phil
el v
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
> Ivor Lewis wrote:
> "Some weeks ago I asked if anyone had
information about the nature, the
> content and proportions of the components of the
gas that is discharged from
> the suction pump of a de-airing Pugmill. I also
sent inquiries to those who
> make such equipment, to clay producers and
suppliers and to ceramic
> organisations."
>
> Ivor -
> I just have to know. Why in the world would you
want to know about pugmill
> effluent gas? I mean, it's rather obvious that
it contains water vapor and
> air, and what else could there be? Why is this
even worth investigating?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love your curiosity, and
your natural inclination to
> investigate things, but why spend your time on
something that seems so
> unnecessary?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee
Technological University
> Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 20 sep 06
Dear Friends,
Some weeks ago I asked if anyone had information about the nature, the =
content and proportions of the components of the gas that is discharged =
from the suction pump of a de-airing Pugmill. I also sent inquiries to =
those who make such equipment, to clay producers and suppliers and to =
ceramic organisations.
So far, it would seem that no one has investigated this function of clay =
preparation, since such replies as I have received suggest this =
substance has never been tested. Some replies I took to be chastising =
since my respondents thought the task unnecessary.
I do not have a de-airing pug mill. in fact I doubt if there is one =
within a couple of hundred kilometres of Redhill so I cannot test the =
stuff to find an answer.
However, further study and an investigation along a differing path seems =
to indicate that Air is the least important of the ingredients ( both in =
quantity and influence on the working properties of plastic clay ) which =
is removed by those who de-air their clay.
Now, I am hoping that someone who has access to the Journals and records =
of the Ceramic Societies, Ceramic Research Organisations and Ceramic =
Materials Departments of Universities of their respective countries =
would like to do a little leg work on my behalf and delve into their =
national archives. Can you find out if anyone has ever investigated this =
topic, who, when, where and with what results ?
Nick Ball of WBB in the UK gave me a reference for which I thank him. =
Oberlies and Pohlmann, 1958, which examined the influence of =
micro-organisms. But I do not know which journal or the title of the =
paper. In view of other recent clayart threads this might be useful to =
everyone ! !
Your assistance would be appreciated
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
W J Seidl on wed 20 sep 06
My dear Ivor:
In large part, the "gases" coming from the de-airing pug mill will =
depend on
the clay body being processed and the atmospheric conditions present =
when
the clay was made and pugged. It also depends on how tight a seal one is
able to achieve on the mill, etc. This can vary so widely from batch to
batch that it might not be practical to test, unless one were to test =
each
and every batch to try to arrive at an "average". Very time consuming, =
and
to what benefit?
Is there something in particular for which you wish to test? I would =
assume
that with most clay bodies, given the amount of organics that burn out =
when
fired, there might be traces of methane from continuing decomposition, =
some
hydrogen perhaps, and certainly some carbon dioxide and oxygen with =
nitrogen
thrown in (all of which amounts to gases commonly found in atmosphere.)
The quantity of each gas would no doubt be small, unless in the presence =
of
certain professors speaking during the de-airing process, in which case =
I
would expect a much higher percentage of methane .
I did at one point see (just an idle curiosity) how much air was removed
from a 100 pound batch of soft throwing porcelain when I first took
possession of my Peter Pugger. Considering the size of the chamber, the
amount of clay present and the fact that the machine was new when the =
test
was performed (good seal) I found the air expelled from the machine to =
be
less than 2 cubic feet at a maximum reading of 26 on the vacuum gauge. =
I
filled up two large latex party balloons; about what I expected. I did =
not
have the equipment available (nor the inclination at the time) to =
further
analyze the gases. I hope that helps.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Ivor and =
Olive
Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:49 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: De-airing Pugmill Effluent Gas.
Dear Friends,
Some weeks ago I asked if anyone had information about the nature, the
content and proportions of the components of the gas that is discharged =
from
the suction pump of a de-airing Pugmill. I also sent inquiries to those =
who
make such equipment, to clay producers and suppliers and to ceramic
organisations.
So far, it would seem that no one has investigated this function of clay
preparation, since such replies as I have received suggest this =
substance
has never been tested. Some replies I took to be chastising since my
respondents thought the task unnecessary.
I do not have a de-airing pug mill. in fact I doubt if there is one =
within a
couple of hundred kilometres of Redhill so I cannot test the stuff to =
find
an answer.
However, further study and an investigation along a differing path seems =
to
indicate that Air is the least important of the ingredients ( both in
quantity and influence on the working properties of plastic clay ) which =
is
removed by those who de-air their clay.
Now, I am hoping that someone who has access to the Journals and records =
of
the Ceramic Societies, Ceramic Research Organisations and Ceramic =
Materials
Departments of Universities of their respective countries would like to =
do a
little leg work on my behalf and delve into their national archives. Can =
you
find out if anyone has ever investigated this topic, who, when, where =
and
with what results ?
Nick Ball of WBB in the UK gave me a reference for which I thank him.
Oberlies and Pohlmann, 1958, which examined the influence of
micro-organisms. But I do not know which journal or the title of the =
paper.
In view of other recent clayart threads this might be useful to everyone =
! !
Your assistance would be appreciated
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Vince Pitelka on wed 20 sep 06
Ivor Lewis wrote:
"Some weeks ago I asked if anyone had information about the nature, the
content and proportions of the components of the gas that is discharged from
the suction pump of a de-airing Pugmill. I also sent inquiries to those who
make such equipment, to clay producers and suppliers and to ceramic
organisations."
Ivor -
I just have to know. Why in the world would you want to know about pugmill
effluent gas? I mean, it's rather obvious that it contains water vapor and
air, and what else could there be? Why is this even worth investigating?
Don't get me wrong, I love your curiosity, and your natural inclination to
investigate things, but why spend your time on something that seems so
unnecessary?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Bonnie Staffel on thu 21 sep 06
Ivor, I can think of one test that might tell you for sure if it is =
methane
gas. Light a match and put it next to wherever the vent is on the =
de-airing
part of the mill. Whoosh, your answer would come very quickly. =20
Gleefully yours,
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD Beginning Processes
Charter Member Potters Council
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 21 sep 06
Dear Vince Pitelka,=20
Glad to see you have included water vapour in your appraisal of the =
constituents of the effluent. Just how much water is taken from the clay =
given that a draw down of pressures cited in previous postings and given =
by W.E. Brownell ? Remember, reduction in pressure changes the boiling =
point of water. What is the evaporation rate at about one tenth of an =
atmosphere pressure?
If you are removing water you change the physical properties, the =
workability and plasticity of your clay. Since published opinions on =
these factors are divided what are the facts ? What else beside Oxygen =
and Nitrogen? Well, if there is all that bacterial activity people speak =
of then there will also be Carbon dioxide. Most natural water contains =
dissolved gas. Water will dissolve Carbon dioxide, volume for volume. My =
preliminary tests show Carbon dioxide affects plasticity of a porcelain =
body. It is probably responsible for the acidity of some plastic clays. =
Are these insignificant things in the processing of clay ? Perhaps to =
you, as an artist, they are.
I asked if there was anything in the research records. I don't have =
access to a university library and banks of information in publications =
like Chemical Abstracts. You do.
Perhaps such things are unimportant in the creation of Works of Art. But =
we are a diverse group and others may wish to consider these ideas. When =
what is known from the research record has been made available to us we =
can have an informed discussion.=20
Thanks for your contribution.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
| |
|
