Warren Widmayer on mon 9 oct 06
I am considering building a simple 5 - 6 cubic foot trash can or wire lath
propane raku kiln similar to many that I've seen discussed here. I'd like
to minimize exposure to the more carcinogenic fiber materials and have
identified two ceramic fiber blanket materials that sound similar - Isofrax
and Superwool. Both are silica-magnesia fibers, both are soluble and
apparently don't persist in the lungs (although they can cause irritation
and respirator use is still recommended), both have a 2300 rated version and
both meet the EU toxicity standards. Isofrax is made by Unifrax and
Superwool is made by Thermal Ceramics Corp., the makers of Kaowool.
My question is whether anyone on the list knows of how these two compare
with each other, and whether they are of the same quality and likely to
produce the same results. I would be purchasing the 1" thickness. Also,
Superwool comes in 6# density and 8# density and I'm wondering if the 8#
density provides significant advantages for this use or is the 6# sufficient?
Warren
Frank Colson on mon 9 oct 06
Warren- It isn't the manufacturer or the brand name that determins the usage
of ceramic fiber, it is the type of mineral it is made of that provides a
better quality heat reflection . If the fiber is made of zircon as
opposed to silica, there is going to be a difference. Keep in mind that
ceramic fiber materials do not absorb heat, they reflects heat. So ,this is
a factor in determining usage you are applying. Also, density. For some
reason most pottery type kiln builders consistantly think that the thicker
the better. Not-so A ,1/2" thick , 8# density
blanket is going to be just about as effective as a 1" 6# density. Chances
are that the 1/2" might be less expensive, depending who you are buying
from.
I have rarely used 1' density ceramic fiber in more than 4 decades. Not
only is it always cheaper but easier to cut with a pair of sissers and
handle. For the kiln temps I normally (C10) go for, it gets the results
I need. .
By the way, 6# density will cover all your needs.
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Widmayer"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Ceramic Fiber Blanket - Safer Materials
>I am considering building a simple 5 - 6 cubic foot trash can or wire lath
> propane raku kiln similar to many that I've seen discussed here. I'd like
> to minimize exposure to the more carcinogenic fiber materials and have
> identified two ceramic fiber blanket materials that sound similar -
> Isofrax
> and Superwool. Both are silica-magnesia fibers, both are soluble and
> apparently don't persist in the lungs (although they can cause irritation
> and respirator use is still recommended), both have a 2300 rated version
> and
> both meet the EU toxicity standards. Isofrax is made by Unifrax and
> Superwool is made by Thermal Ceramics Corp., the makers of Kaowool.
>
> My question is whether anyone on the list knows of how these two compare
> with each other, and whether they are of the same quality and likely to
> produce the same results. I would be purchasing the 1" thickness. Also,
> Superwool comes in 6# density and 8# density and I'm wondering if the 8#
> density provides significant advantages for this use or is the 6#
> sufficient?
>
> Warren
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
John Britt on mon 9 oct 06
Warrren,
I think you may be referring to Unifrax. I found this on Ward Burners
website.
Ward Burner Systems:
Unifrax has recently developed a revolutionary new silica-magnesia fiber
that is soluble in lung tissue. Because of its unique chemistry it falls
below regulatory thresholds and contains NO additional labeling or health
warnings. Isofrax=99 also passes the more stringent EU protocals (European)
regarding ceramic fiber products and has been exempted from classification
or labeling as a potential carcinogen. Further, it is NOT listed as a
hazardous material by the states of CA, NJ, or PA. It still may cause
mechanical irritation, so proper clothing and respirators are still
recommended. This is the only 2300=B0F ceramic fiber we now carry and use it=
exclusively in the production of our Raku kilns. We also sell a 2600=B0F 8lb=
density fiber made by Unifrax for higher temperature applications but, it
does carry the health warnings that Isofrax is exempt from.
Hope it helps,
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Warren Widmayer on mon 16 oct 06
Thanks for those who responded. I still can find no information comparing
the two soluble ceramic fiber blanket materials, Isofrax and Superwool 607
Max. They are both described in all the literature I can find in the same
terms. I assume that they are equivalent in most respects, but I thought
that maybe the two companies might use different processes that cause one or
the other to hold up better over time or have other distinguishing
characteristics...
I have seen a debate rage over the safety of ceramic fiber in the Clayart
archives, but other than Marc Ward, who warns of the dangers of even the
soluble fibers after they have been exposed to high enough heat to form
cristobalite, none of those who debate this seem to be familiar with the
soluble, non-carcinogenic materials available today. It seems that at least
installing this stuff is a lot safer than the "other" fibers.
I'm curious if anyone has specific experience with the soluble fibers and
whether use of a rigidizer is advised when using them.
Frank Colson on tue 17 oct 06
Well, I certainly agree that it is better to be safe than sorry when working
with ceramic fiber. On the other hand, I noticed that it won't kill you!
In 1965 when Carborudom Corp. flew me to their production plant at Niagra
Falls, N.Y., to witness how ceramic fiber is made, I remarked: "This is
crazy, why isn't anyone wearing masks? Their reply was: "There's no
asbestos
in this material!" Well, that's true, for sure. But then I have been
cutting, tearing, gluing, building with ceramic fiber for more than 4
decades. In fact, I even wrote a book and received a US patent about using
ceramic fiber. Guess what? I'm still here and to date, I have yet to ever,
ever, had any lung problems. Don't mis-interpert me, I am NOT advocating
that it is cool to work with ceramic fiber without caution or protection.
So, while you all are finding and looking for a safer ceramic fiber
materials you'er not going to keel over iduring the hunt!
Frank Colson
www.R2D2u.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Widmayer"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: ceramic fiber blanket - safer materials
> Thanks for those who responded. I still can find no information comparing
> the two soluble ceramic fiber blanket materials, Isofrax and Superwool 607
> Max. They are both described in all the literature I can find in the same
> terms. I assume that they are equivalent in most respects, but I thought
> that maybe the two companies might use different processes that cause one
> or
> the other to hold up better over time or have other distinguishing
> characteristics...
>
> I have seen a debate rage over the safety of ceramic fiber in the Clayart
> archives, but other than Marc Ward, who warns of the dangers of even the
> soluble fibers after they have been exposed to high enough heat to form
> cristobalite, none of those who debate this seem to be familiar with the
> soluble, non-carcinogenic materials available today. It seems that at
> least
> installing this stuff is a lot safer than the "other" fibers.
>
> I'm curious if anyone has specific experience with the soluble fibers and
> whether use of a rigidizer is advised when using them.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on tue 17 oct 06
Hello all,
I have a text here on man-made fibers :
http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/Fibres_artificielles.htm
http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/Fibres_artificielles.htm#english
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Le Français Volant
The Flying Frenchman
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://thepottersshop.blogspot.com/
http://www.ceramique.com/cerambooks/html_fiches/83568.php
Hank Murrow on tue 17 oct 06
Dear Frank;
The engineers at Carborundum were quite correct.....and also gave an
incomplete explanation. Asbestos is analogous with srting cheese.....
when it breaks down it separates into finer and finer threads
LONGITUDINALLY. When ceramic fiber breaks down, it separates across the
grain of the fiber TRANSVERSELY, retaining its diameter, and thus its
ultimate particle size.
The reason asbestos was so cumulatively damaging, is that the fibers
got so fine they would not provoke the cough reflex, and no one 'knew'
they were getting it in their lungs. Ceramic fiber, ON THE OTHER HAND,
does give one warning, provoking the cough reflex. it is no more
dangerous than any of the clay and or silica particles on the floors of
out studios. It is exactly that dangerous.
Way too much hysteria and far too little real information about ceramic
fiber.
Cheers, Hank
On Oct 17, 2006, at 6:22 PM, Frank Colson wrote:
> Well, I certainly agree that it is better to be safe than sorry when
> working with ceramic fiber. On the other hand, I noticed that it
> won't kill you! In 1965 when Carborudom Corp. flew me to their
> production plant at Niagra Falls, N.Y., to witness how ceramic fiber
> is made, I remarked: "This is crazy, why isn't anyone wearing masks?
> Their reply was: "There's no asbestos
> in this material!" Well, that's true, for sure. But then I have
> been
> cutting, tearing, gluing, building with ceramic fiber for more than 4
> decades. In fact, I even wrote a book and received a US patent about
> using
> ceramic fiber. Guess what? I'm still here and to date, I have yet to
> ever,
> ever, had any lung problems. Don't mis-interpert me, I am NOT
> advocating
> that it is cool to work with ceramic fiber without caution or
> protection.
> So, while you all are finding and looking for a safer ceramic fiber
> materials you'er not going to keel over iduring the hunt!
www.murrow.biz/hank
Frank Colson on wed 18 oct 06
Hank- Thanks! Very good "afterburnner" to my comments about ceramic fiber.
Overhype is surely what is going on on this posting site!
Frank Colson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hank Murrow"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: ceramic fiber blanket - safer materials
> Dear Frank;
>
> The engineers at Carborundum were quite correct.....and also gave an
> incomplete explanation. Asbestos is analogous with srting cheese.....
> when it breaks down it separates into finer and finer threads
> LONGITUDINALLY. When ceramic fiber breaks down, it separates across the
> grain of the fiber TRANSVERSELY, retaining its diameter, and thus its
> ultimate particle size.
>
> The reason asbestos was so cumulatively damaging, is that the fibers
> got so fine they would not provoke the cough reflex, and no one 'knew'
> they were getting it in their lungs. Ceramic fiber, ON THE OTHER HAND,
> does give one warning, provoking the cough reflex. it is no more
> dangerous than any of the clay and or silica particles on the floors of
> out studios. It is exactly that dangerous.
>
> Way too much hysteria and far too little real information about ceramic
> fiber.
>
> Cheers, Hank
>
> On Oct 17, 2006, at 6:22 PM, Frank Colson wrote:
>
>> Well, I certainly agree that it is better to be safe than sorry when
>> working with ceramic fiber. On the other hand, I noticed that it
>> won't kill you! In 1965 when Carborudom Corp. flew me to their
>> production plant at Niagra Falls, N.Y., to witness how ceramic fiber
>> is made, I remarked: "This is crazy, why isn't anyone wearing masks?
>> Their reply was: "There's no asbestos
>> in this material!" Well, that's true, for sure. But then I have
>> been
>> cutting, tearing, gluing, building with ceramic fiber for more than 4
>> decades. In fact, I even wrote a book and received a US patent about
>> using
>> ceramic fiber. Guess what? I'm still here and to date, I have yet to
>> ever,
>> ever, had any lung problems. Don't mis-interpert me, I am NOT
>> advocating
>> that it is cool to work with ceramic fiber without caution or
>> protection.
>> So, while you all are finding and looking for a safer ceramic fiber
>> materials you'er not going to keel over iduring the hunt!
> www.murrow.biz/hank
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Andy Misner on wed 18 oct 06
Hi everyone, I might be able to help with this. I'm a Unifrax distributer.
They are both very similar (I have msds's for both if anyone wants them) The
Danger of ceramic fiber (known as RFC in our business) is sillicosis. The
Isofrax is bodily soulable so after a time the body just passes it through.
It is advisable when you are working with it to wear a respirator due to
nusence dust.
Yes you can use rigidizer for the Isofrax.
Andy
amisner@indfirebrick.com
www.indfirebrick.com
p.s. I'm going though our inventory and will be offering some real good
deals very soon.
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:57:07 -0400, Warren Widmayer
wrote:
>Thanks for those who responded. I still can find no information comparing
>the two soluble ceramic fiber blanket materials, Isofrax and Superwool 607
>Max. They are both described in all the literature I can find in the same
>terms. I assume that they are equivalent in most respects, but I thought
>that maybe the two companies might use different processes that cause one or
>the other to hold up better over time or have other distinguishing
>characteristics...
>
>I have seen a debate rage over the safety of ceramic fiber in the Clayart
>archives, but other than Marc Ward, who warns of the dangers of even the
>soluble fibers after they have been exposed to high enough heat to form
>cristobalite, none of those who debate this seem to be familiar with the
>soluble, non-carcinogenic materials available today. It seems that at least
>installing this stuff is a lot safer than the "other" fibers.
>
>I'm curious if anyone has specific experience with the soluble fibers and
>whether use of a rigidizer is advised when using them.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
David Todd on wed 18 oct 06
Hello
Yes I'm a newbie and enjoy the list and make the most of it that I can. What
about the risks for those who are garbage can raku kiln users such as the
R2D2. As the air is blown into the combustion chamber a hot blast of air is
being ejected into the air from the can. We are all standing around this
kiln excitedly waiting. After a few firings I find that the fiber bat has to
be repaired because the air force is blowing it apart and where are those
fibers going and in what state due to the heating effects? Should we be
standing around?
Several times I have noticed chest discomfort after a firing which subsides
after a few days.
David Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Andy Misner
Sent: October 18, 2006 9:22 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: ceramic fiber blanket - safer materials
Hi everyone, I might be able to help with this. I'm a Unifrax distributer.
They are both very similar (I have msds's for both if anyone wants them) The
Danger of ceramic fiber (known as RFC in our business) is sillicosis. The
Isofrax is bodily soulable so after a time the body just passes it through.
It is advisable when you are working with it to wear a respirator due to
nusence dust.
Yes you can use rigidizer for the Isofrax.
Andy
amisner@indfirebrick.com
www.indfirebrick.com
p.s. I'm going though our inventory and will be offering some real good
deals very soon.
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:57:07 -0400, Warren Widmayer
wrote:
>Thanks for those who responded. I still can find no information comparing
>the two soluble ceramic fiber blanket materials, Isofrax and Superwool 607
>Max. They are both described in all the literature I can find in the same
>terms. I assume that they are equivalent in most respects, but I thought
>that maybe the two companies might use different processes that cause one
or
>the other to hold up better over time or have other distinguishing
>characteristics...
>
>I have seen a debate rage over the safety of ceramic fiber in the Clayart
>archives, but other than Marc Ward, who warns of the dangers of even the
>soluble fibers after they have been exposed to high enough heat to form
>cristobalite, none of those who debate this seem to be familiar with the
>soluble, non-carcinogenic materials available today. It seems that at
least
>installing this stuff is a lot safer than the "other" fibers.
>
>I'm curious if anyone has specific experience with the soluble fibers and
>whether use of a rigidizer is advised when using them.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Deborah Grant on wed 18 oct 06
I am about to repair the roof of my home made electric front loading kiln
with superwool instead of bricks. Can someone tell me what to use as a
rigidizer and to what temperature it will fire. I fire to cone 10.
Debby Grant
>From: "Edouard Bastarache Inc."
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: ceramic fiber blanket - safer materials
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:43:06 -0400
>
>Hello all,
>
>I have a text here on man-made fibers :
>
>http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/Fibres_artificielles.htm
>http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/Fibres_artificielles.htm#english
>
>
>Later,
>
>
>
>Edouard Bastarache
>Le Français Volant
>The Flying Frenchman
>
>Sorel-Tracy
>Quebec
>edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
>www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
>http://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htm
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
>http://thepottersshop.blogspot.com/
>http://www.ceramique.com/cerambooks/html_fiches/83568.php
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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