Cindy Gatto on mon 30 oct 06
Hi everyone,
Well I just got back form Florida and I just figured I'd give everyone a bit
of a laugh I saw the house it is a nice house it just isn't in Deland- it's
in Deltona They are in the same area -the next town over- sort of. Why my
father told me Deland I will never know but ain't family grand!
Thank you to all who gave me info The towns are close enough that it all
still applies. I do have another question though, I have been doing quite a few
estimates for jobs that don't pan out and I am noticing that I am spending a
lot of time and energy in the process. As far as I know you do not get paid
for an estimate, it is not included if you do get the job and you don't get
reimbursed if you don't get the job. I am wondering if I am wrong- Is there a
way to get paid for the time you put in to it- more so if you don't get the
job. I spent an afternoon going over a job with a women who knew nothing about
clay I figured out the best way to execute it, the cost, time frame materials
everything She also told me the job was mine She was supposed to finalize the
design of it and then we were supposed to start work I just got a phone call
that she is going with someone else. Is there a way to make up some of the
lost time I mean you can't stick a contract in someone's face and ask for a
deposit until the job is yours so what can you do if anything? In this
particular case I spent several hours so I'm a little more peeved than usual but you
do enough estimates it ads up. And how many estimates do you do if the
person keeps changing their mind before it is okay to bill for your time? Is
there a standard operating procedure for doing estimates or do you just cross
your fingers and hope for the best?
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on mon 30 oct 06
Hi Cindy,
The only way I know, is to have a fee of some
percentage of the Job or just-a-fee, for providing
the detailed 'estimate' ( which usually means all
the design and working out of what the customer
wants and so on of course, )...and that fee gets
paid then when the estimate is done, or even
before the estimate is begun.
The fee is later to be deducted from the total
price of the Job, once the Job is underway or
done...
Otherwise, what a lot of people are doing really,
is trying to get free design and remedial
education services from several potential
artists/artisans, then useing the info they are
learning to finally lean on or grind on whoever
will do it cheapest.
One way to go about this is to make a proposal for
designing their whatever-it-is which states a
price JUST for that, and then have the making of
the thing a seperate agreement/proposal/deal.
Say, so much for "up to" so many Hours, or, so
much-per-hour, "period" so it is not too
open-ended and exploitable.
Most 'customers' of course will not accept
something like this, or they get or fein
indignation and resentment, which is excellent,
since they are the same ones who would not have
had you do the project anyway, or, who would have
made lots of troubles if they did have you to do
it.
Best wishes...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Gatto"
<<<<>>>>
> I have been doing quite a few
> estimates for jobs that don't pan out and I am
noticing that I am spending a
> lot of time and energy in the process. As far
as I know you do not get paid
> for an estimate, it is not included if you do
get the job and you don't get
> reimbursed if you don't get the job. I am
wondering if I am wrong- Is there a
> way to get paid for the time you put in to it-
more so if you don't get the
> job. I spent an afternoon going over a job with
a women who knew nothing about
> clay I figured out the best way to execute it,
the cost, time frame materials
> everything She also told me the job was mine She
was supposed to finalize the
> design of it and then we were supposed to start
work I just got a phone call
> that she is going with someone else. Is there a
way to make up some of the
> lost time I mean you can't stick a contract in
someone's face and ask for a
> deposit until the job is yours so what can you
do if anything? In this
> particular case I spent several hours so I'm a
little more peeved than usual but you
> do enough estimates it ads up. And how many
estimates do you do if the
> person keeps changing their mind before it is
okay to bill for your time? Is
> there a standard operating procedure for doing
estimates or do you just cross
> your fingers and hope for the best?
> Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
> The Mudpit
Stephani Stephenson on mon 30 oct 06
Cindy
I just reread your question....
if it is a few hours you spend on an estimate.
1. the value of the project has to be worth those few hours.
2. you have to get good at doing estimates so it doesn't take a few
hours for the initial estimate
3. you have to fold it into the cost of doing business and recoup it in
your bid
4. Sometimes what I do is provide an initial 'ballpark' estimate,
subject to revision, to give the customer a general idea of cost and
lead time.
That way they have an idea, you haven't invested a lot of time, and if
they are interested you will revisit the issue and flesh out the
details
That said, here's a rambling version of the above, and admittedly , I
also cross over into talking about other prelim work so some of it
might be a bit off topic with regard to doing estimates only.....
I know, I know, estimates do take time....partly because you have to
quickly envision the scope of the project, the materials, the time
spent, etc. etc.
I calculate design , layout, etc and if doing the estimate itself is
extensive, I include it into the bid or quote . it is listed as a
charge, usually as design, right along with cost of materials and
other applicable "upcharges" which may include making of a custom
mold, sculpting, layout, etc.
True, in those cases, if the customer doesn't go for the project and
place a deposit... no money is collected.
Sometimes I will charge separately for initial work such as design
work or glaze test work . I will agree to do an initial amount of work
for a certain fee and that fee will be payable whether the full project
goes forward or not. I have done this on a few occasions where the
customer wanted a very complete set of plans or drawings before they
decided. generally the customer wants something for this time though,
as in a design, drawing or test results, not just the estimate.
there have been a couple of large projects where I gambled. by doing
extensive proposal and estimate work without a guarantee of
acceptance, (though I have to say there were lots of promises and we
got quite a ways into our dealings over a 9 month period before they
vanished.) in this case I did the work on behalf of the landscape
architect who was working on a large upscale condo development. He was
upfront about not being able to pay and that the work would be on spec.
( the lure was the size of the project and the potential income from
it.)
The developer also gobbled up lots of samples and actually wanted
thousands of dollars worth of samples which he offered to pay for , but
wanted the work first , I did NOT send those samples($500 tiles and
pots) .
About a year later I called the landscape architect and asked if my
designs had been utilized albeit with different , probably cheaper
materials. I think he had also been burned by the developer, though I
know HE probably didn't do work on spec. I wonder though , someday if
I wondered into that condo project, what I would see!
Another time I did extensive preliminary estimate and design work on
a large and complex project on behalf of someone who was supposed to
subcontract portions of the project to me in exchange for the design
and promo work. Ahem. that time , simple greed and disingenuous
behavior kicked in so , nothing ever came my way.
In those cases I was just starting out and was hungry for projects
and did not exhibit great wisdon :( . in retrospect I am so glad
neither one of those projects panned out. :)
early on I got egged into a few projects where individual customers
demanded more and more detail in a layout before I ever asked for a
penny. They changed their minds and I never did get that penny . Sure
enough I got skunked. I let it getout of control. I didn't know how to
draw the line or where to draw the line.
So, I worked on improving my own process.
Part of the problem is I get excited about a project at the outset and
want to do EVERYTHING for the customer.
so now I say Whoa girl, enter the professional, please!
So part of it involves learning to step back, state your terms and let
them come to a decision.
and part of it involves saying no sometimes.
By doing significant work with no deposit or payment , you really are
simply gambling; hoping you will land the job.
You have to acknowledge that at the outset.
I knew at the start of both of those projects that there was no
guarantee .In the first case, I needed work , I went for it, it was an
exercise in bidding and designing.
In the second case I learned I was dealing with a smiling schmuck! .
Though it was a tough lesson, it could have been a lot tougher.
SO ! water under the bridge, lessons learned! Move on to the next one
and be smarter!
It is a fact that no one will offer you anything, and in many parts
of art and industry there is an expectation you will do the work on
spec.
designers, architects, advertisers, graphic artists, all have to deal
with this. A good source of info is the Handbook of Graphic Design
Guidelines..(.that isn't the exact name, but it spells out how to
approach the issue of work on spec.)
Remember, YOU call the shots on what you will do and how far you will
go and you need to discuss it up front.
Generally , you have to demonstrate to the customer that you will be
able to complete the project on time and successfully in every way.
You need to inspire trust and confidence, not only in your work but in
your professional approach to the project.
Ideally you put together enough of a presentation, usually an initial
meeting , possibly a follow up meeting including the bid, samples,
sketches, general design concept, or a meeting at the site or studio
. this is where you discuss the issue of further design work .
Usually , in my case, the customer says go for it and my detailed
design and layout work begins after receipt of the deposit.
you can specify deadlines and parts of the bid which deal with
planning and design, etc. if it is extensive.
On larger projects which entail a lot of lead work, I list it in
the bid and collect a 50% deposit.
generally none of the deposit is refundable. On rare occasions when
there have been extenuating circumstances ,
I have returned part of the deposit but kept an amount equal to the
amount of work I put into the project, and other costs involved with
embarking then cancelling project.
If the design or planning phase is open ended, or if the customer is
one who will tend to drag it out and make changes, write a contract,
specify what happens with changes.
you can also agree to do design, planning etc. work on an hourly
basis and bill customer by the hour . generally $45- $75 per hour is
the , norm, based on experience and is in line with graphics artist
fees, actually on the low end.. this is good to do when you don't
really know how much time will be involved. You may want to discuss a
ceiling amount though.
Public projects, especially competitions will allot an amount of money
for development of designs, a maquettes, etc.
Large scale projects such as housing developments are notorious for
demanding everything on spec.
As an individual I cannot float that much time to work on spec, so I
steer clear of those projects.
However
All in all, it is fairly normal to do some lead work.. and, IMHO
providing an estimate is part of the cost of doing business .
I try to get more efficient about it as time goes by.
that's why those early missteps weren't all bad,
I did learn some chops.
just like throwing 500 bowls
do 500 estimates....
complete 500 bids.
Still learning and
rambling on as usual!
good luck!!!
Stephani Stephenson
Eric Serritella on tue 31 oct 06
Stephani has some really good points, and I'm reminded of a lesson I learned
long ago about those large quantity jobs that are so hard to turn down.
The lesson came from the president of the first company I worked for back in
1985 when I graduated from college. (This was in corporate American and was
not a pottery related job.) We were calculating a bid and I was trying
everything to get the price down because it was a large quantity and seemed
irresistible. He said, "I know you want to get this order, but if you have a
bid for 50 pieces and you'll lose a dollar on each piece, you must walk away
from the bid. If the quantity is for 500,000 pieces... run away!"
That Al Rosen. He was a wise man.
Eric
Muddy Paws Pottery
528 Sebring Road
Newfield, NY 14867
607.564.7810
www.muddypawspottery.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephani Stephenson"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Paid for estimates?/ Deland Fla.
> Cindy
> I just reread your question....
> if it is a few hours you spend on an estimate.
> 1. the value of the project has to be worth those few hours.
> 2. you have to get good at doing estimates so it doesn't take a few
> hours for the initial estimate
> 3. you have to fold it into the cost of doing business and recoup it in
> your bid
> 4. Sometimes what I do is provide an initial 'ballpark' estimate,
> subject to revision, to give the customer a general idea of cost and
> lead time.
> That way they have an idea, you haven't invested a lot of time, and if
> they are interested you will revisit the issue and flesh out the
> details
>
>
> That said, here's a rambling version of the above, and admittedly , I
> also cross over into talking about other prelim work so some of it
> might be a bit off topic with regard to doing estimates only.....
>
> I know, I know, estimates do take time....partly because you have to
> quickly envision the scope of the project, the materials, the time
> spent, etc. etc.
>
> I calculate design , layout, etc and if doing the estimate itself is
> extensive, I include it into the bid or quote . it is listed as a
> charge, usually as design, right along with cost of materials and
> other applicable "upcharges" which may include making of a custom
> mold, sculpting, layout, etc.
>
> True, in those cases, if the customer doesn't go for the project and
> place a deposit... no money is collected.
>
> Sometimes I will charge separately for initial work such as design
> work or glaze test work . I will agree to do an initial amount of work
> for a certain fee and that fee will be payable whether the full project
> goes forward or not. I have done this on a few occasions where the
> customer wanted a very complete set of plans or drawings before they
> decided. generally the customer wants something for this time though,
> as in a design, drawing or test results, not just the estimate.
>
> there have been a couple of large projects where I gambled. by doing
> extensive proposal and estimate work without a guarantee of
> acceptance, (though I have to say there were lots of promises and we
> got quite a ways into our dealings over a 9 month period before they
> vanished.) in this case I did the work on behalf of the landscape
> architect who was working on a large upscale condo development. He was
> upfront about not being able to pay and that the work would be on spec.
> ( the lure was the size of the project and the potential income from
> it.)
> The developer also gobbled up lots of samples and actually wanted
> thousands of dollars worth of samples which he offered to pay for , but
> wanted the work first , I did NOT send those samples($500 tiles and
> pots) .
> About a year later I called the landscape architect and asked if my
> designs had been utilized albeit with different , probably cheaper
> materials. I think he had also been burned by the developer, though I
> know HE probably didn't do work on spec. I wonder though , someday if
> I wondered into that condo project, what I would see!
>
> Another time I did extensive preliminary estimate and design work on
> a large and complex project on behalf of someone who was supposed to
> subcontract portions of the project to me in exchange for the design
> and promo work. Ahem. that time , simple greed and disingenuous
> behavior kicked in so , nothing ever came my way.
> In those cases I was just starting out and was hungry for projects
> and did not exhibit great wisdon :( . in retrospect I am so glad
> neither one of those projects panned out. :)
>
> early on I got egged into a few projects where individual customers
> demanded more and more detail in a layout before I ever asked for a
> penny. They changed their minds and I never did get that penny . Sure
> enough I got skunked. I let it getout of control. I didn't know how to
> draw the line or where to draw the line.
> So, I worked on improving my own process.
> Part of the problem is I get excited about a project at the outset and
> want to do EVERYTHING for the customer.
> so now I say Whoa girl, enter the professional, please!
>
> So part of it involves learning to step back, state your terms and let
> them come to a decision.
> and part of it involves saying no sometimes.
>
>
> By doing significant work with no deposit or payment , you really are
> simply gambling; hoping you will land the job.
> You have to acknowledge that at the outset.
> I knew at the start of both of those projects that there was no
> guarantee .In the first case, I needed work , I went for it, it was an
> exercise in bidding and designing.
> In the second case I learned I was dealing with a smiling schmuck! .
> Though it was a tough lesson, it could have been a lot tougher.
> SO ! water under the bridge, lessons learned! Move on to the next one
> and be smarter!
>
> It is a fact that no one will offer you anything, and in many parts
> of art and industry there is an expectation you will do the work on
> spec.
> designers, architects, advertisers, graphic artists, all have to deal
> with this. A good source of info is the Handbook of Graphic Design
> Guidelines..(.that isn't the exact name, but it spells out how to
> approach the issue of work on spec.)
>
> Remember, YOU call the shots on what you will do and how far you will
> go and you need to discuss it up front.
>
> Generally , you have to demonstrate to the customer that you will be
> able to complete the project on time and successfully in every way.
> You need to inspire trust and confidence, not only in your work but in
> your professional approach to the project.
> Ideally you put together enough of a presentation, usually an initial
> meeting , possibly a follow up meeting including the bid, samples,
> sketches, general design concept, or a meeting at the site or studio
> . this is where you discuss the issue of further design work .
> Usually , in my case, the customer says go for it and my detailed
> design and layout work begins after receipt of the deposit.
> you can specify deadlines and parts of the bid which deal with
> planning and design, etc. if it is extensive.
> On larger projects which entail a lot of lead work, I list it in
> the bid and collect a 50% deposit.
> generally none of the deposit is refundable. On rare occasions when
> there have been extenuating circumstances ,
> I have returned part of the deposit but kept an amount equal to the
> amount of work I put into the project, and other costs involved with
> embarking then cancelling project.
>
> If the design or planning phase is open ended, or if the customer is
> one who will tend to drag it out and make changes, write a contract,
> specify what happens with changes.
>
> you can also agree to do design, planning etc. work on an hourly
> basis and bill customer by the hour . generally $45- $75 per hour is
> the , norm, based on experience and is in line with graphics artist
> fees, actually on the low end.. this is good to do when you don't
> really know how much time will be involved. You may want to discuss a
> ceiling amount though.
>
> Public projects, especially competitions will allot an amount of money
> for development of designs, a maquettes, etc.
>
> Large scale projects such as housing developments are notorious for
> demanding everything on spec.
> As an individual I cannot float that much time to work on spec, so I
> steer clear of those projects.
> However
> All in all, it is fairly normal to do some lead work.. and, IMHO
> providing an estimate is part of the cost of doing business .
>
> I try to get more efficient about it as time goes by.
> that's why those early missteps weren't all bad,
> I did learn some chops.
> just like throwing 500 bowls
> do 500 estimates....
> complete 500 bids.
>
> Still learning and
> rambling on as usual!
> good luck!!!
>
> Stephani Stephenson
>
>
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