Valerie Merrell on thu 2 nov 06
I recently acquired a used skutt 1027 and a cress ftx 1414, and I'm trying
to figure out how to get the electric wiring set up to fire them. I have
some experience doing electrical work, but have never worked with 240 v, or
with breakers. The size of that #6 copper wire is intimidating! I'm
thinking that rather than try to do it all myself, I'll lay out the wiring
(to save money) then hire an electrician to make the actual connections. My
kiln will be in a studio that has 140 amps going to it, and I can easily
turn off the breaker going to the studio subpanel. I could probably do it
all myself, but I'd feel better knowing it was all done correctly.
My questions are:
1. Should I try to figure out if the actual wires running from the house to
the studio subpanel are copper or aluminum, or does that not matter?
2. Skutt recommends a 6-50 receptacle and a 60 amp breaker for this kiln.
As far as I can tell, the 6-50 receptacle is only for 50 amps. Is this ok
because the kiln is only 48 amps even though it needs a 60 amp breaker?
Should I hard wire it instead?
3. Is there any way to put a 6-30 receptacle for the Cress on the same
breaker, or do I need to install a separate breaker and plug for the Cress?
4. This may sound really stupid to some of you, but our house has 150 amps
power coming in the main line, and all the breakers in the main panel add up
to over 500 amps. I just want to be sure that this is normal and only means
that we can't run everything at the same time.
5. Does it make any difference other than the cost of the wire how far from
the subpanel I place the kiln outlet? (I just mean across the room rather
than right by the subpanel)
6. Any opinions out there on whether I should use heavier wire now just in
case I want to upgrade to a larger kiln in the future?
Thanks,
Valerie
Arnold Howard on thu 2 nov 06
From: "Valerie Merrell"
> 1. Should I try to figure out if the actual wires running
> from the house to
> the studio subpanel are copper or aluminum, or does that
> not matter?
> 2. Skutt recommends a 6-50 receptacle and a 60 amp
> breaker for this kiln.
> As far as I can tell, the 6-50 receptacle is only for 50
> amps. Is this ok
> because the kiln is only 48 amps even though it needs a 60
> amp breaker?
> Should I hard wire it instead?
> 3. Is there any way to put a 6-30 receptacle for the
> Cress on the same
> breaker, or do I need to install a separate breaker and
> plug for the Cress?
> 4. This may sound really stupid to some of you, but our
> house has 150 amps
> power coming in the main line, and all the breakers in the
> main panel add up
> to over 500 amps. I just want to be sure that this is
> normal and only means
> that we can't run everything at the same time.
> 5. Does it make any difference other than the cost of the
> wire how far from
> the subpanel I place the kiln outlet? (I just mean across
> the room rather
> than right by the subpanel)
> 6. Any opinions out there on whether I should use heavier
> wire now just in
> case I want to upgrade to a larger kiln in the future?
1) Copper wire is recommended for the kiln circuit (the wire
that goes from the breaker to the kiln).
The main wire supplying your studio can be aluminum as long
as it is the correct gauge and installed correctly, but
copper is better.
2) Skutt's recommended 60 amp breaker for a 6-50 wall outlet
is okay as long as you are also using the correct wire gauge
in the circuit. Hard wiring is preferred. In any case, you
should also install an electrical shutoff box near the kiln.
3) You should install a separate circuit for the Cress.
4) This is an especially important question that your
electrician should answer for you. One time I hired an
electrician to install a new circuit for a central air
conditioner. A master electrician from Paragon kindly
inspected the circuit for me. He told me the installation
would overheat the main wires coming into the house and
recommended that it be wired differently. This is why
question #4 is so important.
5) Place the breaker panel within 25 feet of the kiln.
However, if it is right next to the kiln, the breaker may
shut off due to the heat from the kiln.
6) It wouldn't hurt to use heavier wire.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
WJ Seidl on thu 2 nov 06
Valerie:
The short answers:
1) It probably does not matter, but you should know for your own safety.
Ask your electrician to check, or you can pull (careful!) the cover off that
sub-panel. The large wires going to the main breaker will show either
copper or silver. The silver will be aluminum. Personally , I wouldn't
have aluminum wiring. I don't trust it, but that's just my opinion.
2) Hard wired is usually better, unless you plan on moving that kiln a lot
and will be disconnecting and reconnecting it frequently.
3)Separate breaker. Always. Period!
4)That's not a stupid question at all. You are correct. Don't turn
everything on at once. If you do, your electric meter will probably have a
heart attack, and go zinging across the lawn . Followed by your partner
when they see the electric bill.
5)Yes. With a long run of wire, there will be a voltage drop. That means
the kiln will have to struggle to reach temp, and you will have to use a
heavier wire. How long a run across the room is it? 20 feet might not mean
much, but 40 would etc.
6)If you can afford to go with heavier wire, NOW is the time to do it. Like
everything else, copper will only go up in price, and be that much more
expensive in the future. Good to see you're planning ahead.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Valerie Merrell
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:11 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: wiring used skutt 1027
I recently acquired a used skutt 1027 and a cress ftx 1414, and I'm trying
to figure out how to get the electric wiring set up to fire them. I have
some experience doing electrical work, but have never worked with 240 v, or
with breakers. The size of that #6 copper wire is intimidating! I'm
thinking that rather than try to do it all myself, I'll lay out the wiring
(to save money) then hire an electrician to make the actual connections. My
kiln will be in a studio that has 140 amps going to it, and I can easily
turn off the breaker going to the studio subpanel. I could probably do it
all myself, but I'd feel better knowing it was all done correctly.
My questions are:
1. Should I try to figure out if the actual wires running from the house to
the studio subpanel are copper or aluminum, or does that not matter?
2. Skutt recommends a 6-50 receptacle and a 60 amp breaker for this kiln.
As far as I can tell, the 6-50 receptacle is only for 50 amps. Is this ok
because the kiln is only 48 amps even though it needs a 60 amp breaker?
Should I hard wire it instead?
3. Is there any way to put a 6-30 receptacle for the Cress on the same
breaker, or do I need to install a separate breaker and plug for the Cress?
4. This may sound really stupid to some of you, but our house has 150 amps
power coming in the main line, and all the breakers in the main panel add up
to over 500 amps. I just want to be sure that this is normal and only means
that we can't run everything at the same time.
5. Does it make any difference other than the cost of the wire how far from
the subpanel I place the kiln outlet? (I just mean across the room rather
than right by the subpanel)
6. Any opinions out there on whether I should use heavier wire now just in
case I want to upgrade to a larger kiln in the future?
Thanks,
Valerie
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__
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Valerie Merrell on fri 3 nov 06
Thanks for all the helpful answers. I have another question or two.
I just checked the wiring going to the studio subpanel, and it is labeled 6
AWG, and is copper. This would be sufficient, as I understand it, since
Skutt recommends 6 gauge copper wire for the kiln. However, the studio is
probably about 90 feet (uphill) from the main electric panel in the house,
so I'm concerned that with such a long run, I would have trouble with losing
power and not being able to reach top temperatures, since it isn't 4 gauge
wire. I am only planning to fire to cone 6 rather than cone 10, if that
makes a difference.
Another concern is that the bus in the subpanel (where the breakers clip to)
seems to be aluminum rather than copper. Does this mean I should replace
the subpanel with one that has a copper bus?
So now I suppose I need to decide on a course of action: Do I go ahead and
wire into the existing wiring and just hope the long run isn't problematic
at cone 6, do I replace the existing wiring with 4 gauge (which would be a
time consuming and costly job, since the wiring is buried under our
landscaping), or do I build a shed off the house and do my firings there,
schlepping my pottery up and down our hill to load the kiln?
Any advice?
Valerie
Snail Scott on fri 3 nov 06
At 12:04 PM 11/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>...Do I go ahead and
>wire into the existing wiring and just hope the long run isn't problematic
>at cone 6, do I replace the existing wiring with 4 gauge (which would be a
>time consuming and costly job, since the wiring is buried under our
>landscaping), or do I build a shed off the house and do my firings there,
>schlepping my pottery up and down our hill to load the kiln?>
Ack. Yeah, it will certainly need replacing.
#6 just won't cut it at 90 feet distance.
No way. #4 is still probably too small. Even
if you are only going to ^6, you will have
to fire on 'high' for several hours at full
power. Not as many hours as for ^10, but the
draw will be the same while it's running.
I'd build a lean-to next to the house for the
kiln, and carry the pottery down to it. Easier
than trenching the yard, and way cheaper.
Even a prefab metal shed will cost much less.
If you learn to hate that, and want to spring
for the new wiring later, wait 'til copper
prices drop. They're at an all-time high
right now. (It adds up, with that big wire!)
-Snail
Arnold Howard on fri 3 nov 06
From: "Valerie Merrell"
do I replace the existing wiring with 4 gauge (which would
be a
> time consuming and costly job, since the wiring is buried
> under our
> landscaping),
Valerie, if you have sufficient voltage, the 6 gauge wiring
to your studio may be adequate. Instead of replacing the 6
gauge with 4 gauge, why not install the kiln to see how it
fires.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
WJ Seidl on fri 3 nov 06
Valerie:
If the run of #6 from the house to the studio subpanel is in electrical
conduit, it should not be a big deal to pull new #4 wires. It won't be
cheap or easy though. If it is direct burial wire, you might want to just
abandon it and go with a new, heavier one. A decent electrician can help
you make that determination.
Those busses in the subpanel are fine. They are probably an aluminum alloy,
or aluminum plated brass or steel, but NO ONE puts copper busses in their
panels these days. They will be fine. Not to worry.
I can't tell you whether or not you are going to have trouble with that
wiring down the road. It seems odd to me that an electrician would only use
#6 when he put a 175amp sub panel in, but I have seen stranger things (found
a few in my house). Only an onsite visit from an electrician in YOUR area
can help you here. Talk to your neighbors, friends and family. Someone
will be able to recommend an electrician. It's worth the price of the house
call, even if you decide to do the work yourself later, just for the peace
of mind.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Valerie Merrell
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:04 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: wiring used skutt 1027
Thanks for all the helpful answers. I have another question or two.
I just checked the wiring going to the studio subpanel, and it is labeled 6
AWG, and is copper. This would be sufficient, as I understand it, since
Skutt recommends 6 gauge copper wire for the kiln. However, the studio is
probably about 90 feet (uphill) from the main electric panel in the house,
so I'm concerned that with such a long run, I would have trouble with losing
power and not being able to reach top temperatures, since it isn't 4 gauge
wire. I am only planning to fire to cone 6 rather than cone 10, if that
makes a difference.
Another concern is that the bus in the subpanel (where the breakers clip to)
seems to be aluminum rather than copper. Does this mean I should replace
the subpanel with one that has a copper bus?
So now I suppose I need to decide on a course of action: Do I go ahead and
wire into the existing wiring and just hope the long run isn't problematic
at cone 6, do I replace the existing wiring with 4 gauge (which would be a
time consuming and costly job, since the wiring is buried under our
landscaping), or do I build a shed off the house and do my firings there,
schlepping my pottery up and down our hill to load the kiln?
Any advice?
Valerie
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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melpots@pclink.com.
Maurice Weitman on fri 3 nov 06
At 12:04 -0500 on 11/3/06, Valerie Merrell wrote:
>I just checked the wiring going to the studio subpanel, and it is labeled 6
>AWG, and is copper. This would be sufficient, as I understand it, since
>Skutt recommends 6 gauge copper wire for the kiln. However, the studio is
>probably about 90 feet (uphill) from the main electric panel in the house,
>so I'm concerned that with such a long run, I would have trouble with losing
>power and not being able to reach top temperatures, since it isn't 4 gauge
>wire. I am only planning to fire to cone 6 rather than cone 10, if that
>makes a difference.
Hello, Valerie,
I'm no steenkin' electrician (AND I would certainly go along with the
sensible advice to consult a qualified electrician), AND I am s-l-o-w
to contradict anything that the almost always correct Snail Scott
would say, BUT...
If you check the Voltage Drop Calculator two-thirds of the way down
the page on
(http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm), you might gain enough
confidence to give your current wiring a shot.
I entered #6 AWG Copper, 100 feet, 48 amp. load at 240 Volts,
single-phase, and came up with less than 4 volt (2%) voltage drop.
Now... this assumes that your sub-panel has 240 volts and that the
rest of the devices on that circuit don't add up to much (lighting,
etc.).
I'd say to follow Arnold's advice and give it a go. Copper is very
expensive these days and it would be a chore to run a 100' run.
Be certain all connections are clean and tight, and I'd bet you'll be
fine. So will your kiln.
Good luck!
Regards,
Maurice
Craig Clark on fri 3 nov 06
Valerie, rather than trying to succinctly explain things, and since you
have an understanding of the subject, just follow this link. It will
explain things in detail and there is a handy-dandy little calculating
tool where all you need do is plug in the load (fifty amps is a nice
round figure), the length of you wire run, the type of line voltage
available. It will calculate the voltage drop for you. A nifty little tool.
Numba 6 will work, but you can't go wrong with 4 or even #2. The larger
diameter wire will cost more and copper ain't cheap. But, if you loose a
larger size than you need there will be less resistence, less heat, and
less power loss as a result.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Hope this helps
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 St
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
WJ Seidl wrote:
> Valerie:
> If the run of #6 from the house to the studio subpanel is in electrical
> conduit, it should not be a big deal to pull new #4 wires. It won't be
> cheap or easy though. If it is direct burial wire, you might want to just
> abandon it and go with a new, heavier one. A decent electrician can help
> you make that determination.
> Those busses in the subpanel are fine. They are probably an aluminum alloy,
> or aluminum plated brass or steel, but NO ONE puts copper busses in their
> panels these days. They will be fine. Not to worry.
>
> I can't tell you whether or not you are going to have trouble with that
> wiring down the road. It seems odd to me that an electrician would only use
> #6 when he put a 175amp sub panel in, but I have seen stranger things (found
> a few in my house). Only an onsite visit from an electrician in YOUR area
> can help you here. Talk to your neighbors, friends and family. Someone
> will be able to recommend an electrician. It's worth the price of the house
> call, even if you decide to do the work yourself later, just for the peace
> of mind.
>
> Best,
> Wayne Seidl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Valerie Merrell
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:04 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: wiring used skutt 1027
>
> Thanks for all the helpful answers. I have another question or two.
>
> I just checked the wiring going to the studio subpanel, and it is labeled 6
> AWG, and is copper. This would be sufficient, as I understand it, since
> Skutt recommends 6 gauge copper wire for the kiln. However, the studio is
> probably about 90 feet (uphill) from the main electric panel in the house,
> so I'm concerned that with such a long run, I would have trouble with losing
> power and not being able to reach top temperatures, since it isn't 4 gauge
> wire. I am only planning to fire to cone 6 rather than cone 10, if that
> makes a difference.
>
> Another concern is that the bus in the subpanel (where the breakers clip to)
> seems to be aluminum rather than copper. Does this mean I should replace
> the subpanel with one that has a copper bus?
>
> So now I suppose I need to decide on a course of action: Do I go ahead and
> wire into the existing wiring and just hope the long run isn't problematic
> at cone 6, do I replace the existing wiring with 4 gauge (which would be a
> time consuming and costly job, since the wiring is buried under our
> landscaping), or do I build a shed off the house and do my firings there,
> schlepping my pottery up and down our hill to load the kiln?
>
> Any advice?
>
> Valerie
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Snail Scott on sat 4 nov 06
At 11:45 AM 11/3/2006 -0800, Maurice wrote:
>
>I'm no steenkin' electrician (AND I would certainly go along with the
>sensible advice to consult a qualified electrician), AND I am s-l-o-w
>to contradict anything that the almost always correct Snail Scott
>would say, BUT...
>
>If you check the Voltage Drop Calculator two-thirds of the way down
>the page on
>(http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm), you might gain enough
>confidence to give your current wiring a shot.
I ain't no stinkin 'lectrishan, neither,
and I am always happy to be proved wrong
in the name of accuracy, especially if it
saves someone some real $$$ and trouble.
The charts I checked (many years ago - I
just wrote down the salient details at the
time) indicated #4 would be wise even for
runs half that long, but that doesn't
make it so. I hope that Maurice's chart
is more accurate, and being more recent,
it's probably a good bet.
Thanks, Maurice!
-Snail
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