Vince Pitelka on wed 8 nov 06
David -
I am pretty much perplexed by this whole thing. You are one of the more
resourceful and inventive people I know, and your bat system obviously works
well for you, great, but your wholesale condemnation of bat pins is strange.
You don't like them, fine, but there's absolutely no down-side to having bat
pins. If you have bat pins and want to throw off the wheelhead, you stick a
14" Medex bat in place and call it the wheelhead. Six little dots of clay
on the wheelhead in a concentric circle with the bat pins, and the bat
sticks securely with no movement at all, and is easy to remove with a flick
of a screwdriver. The bat only raises the surface by 5/8", which makes no
difference at all in the usefulness of the splash pan.
The surface of a Medex bat is actually a BETTER surface for adhering clay,
and if you do end up with something you want to save, like a trimming chuck,
or a big platter thrown from the remaining clay at the end of throwing off
the hump, you've already got a bat on the wheel and can simply lift it off
and put on a new one.
The 5/8" Medex bats that we use are practically indestructible, and would
last the average potter for the rest of his or her life, so the initial
expense of the Medex is inconsequential. The bats don't need to have
anything sticking out of them, and no additional pieces of lumber screwed or
glued onto them, so they are very compact in a stack. They can be made in
whatever diameter you wish as long as they are large enough to span the
wheelhead pins, and if you want smaller bats, you can route out a square
recess in one Medex bat to accept bisque tiles as bats for small objects.
Someone once commented to me that they prefer the concentric grooves in the
wheelhead for centering things for trimming. Okay, so you make marks at
one-inch increments out from the center of one bat, and with the wheel
rotating you use a sharpie to make concentric circles at each of the marks,
and then use that bat whenever you are trimming. You want actual grooves
instead of circles of permanent ink? You use an abrasive wheel on a Dremel
and, again with the wheelhead turning, grind concentric grooves just like
the ones in the aluminum wheelhead.
Again, David, I admire your resoucefulness and ingenuity, but your
inclination towards improvised homegrown solutions doesn't seem to justify
condemning a system as ingenious as the standard bat pins.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Lee Love on thu 9 nov 06
I never liked throwing on a metal wheelhead. On my shimpo, I
always had a wooden bat on it, the same diameter as the wheel head.
I have been playing with some plastic cutting disks I get at the
100 yen store: I think they are something like using tar paper
disks as bats. Helps you slide something big off without
distorting the bottom edge.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
"When we all do better. We ALL do better." -Paul Wellstone
David Hendley on thu 9 nov 06
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
>..............but there's absolutely no down-side to having bat pins.
Hi Vince, If you don't mind, I will use your own words to point out
that there are, indeed many down-sides to having bat pins. I don't
want this to seem like tit-for-tat, as cut and pasted responses can
end up being, but just a way to organize my response.
>If you have bat pins and want to throw off the wheelhead, you stick a
> 14" Medex bat in place and call it the wheelhead
Why in the world should I have to take the time to do that?
I know it doesn't take long, but it is one more thing to do.
What is a wheelhead for?
>Six little dots of clay
> on the wheelhead in a concentric circle with the bat pins, and the bat
> sticks securely with no movement at all,
You gotta be kidding: you think fooling with putting 6 balls
of clay in a circle on a wheelhead is a good use of your time?
Again, it doesn't take that long each time, but it adds up and a
good bat system should not require such a rig job to hold bats
securely. It's inelegant, to say the least.
>and is easy to remove with a flick of a screwdriver.
Talk about poor design - a tool is required to remove the bat from
the wheel? Another tool to pick up dozens of times a day, another
tool to clean up after use, and another tool to misplace.
Of course, the biggest waste of time and frustration from bat pins
occurs when working on a piece in stages and the holes in the bat
have to be matched up to the bat pins to put it back on the wheel.
This is especially not fun when the piece weighs 10 or 20 pounds.
> The 5/8" Medex bats that we use are practically indestructible, and would
> last the average potter for the rest of his or her life, so the initial
> expense of the Medex is inconsequential.
My bats have already lasted close to a lifetime (30 years). The initial
expense was less than inconsequential (25 cents). Medex is actually
expensive, but you're right, the cost is not an issue.
As for your bats lasting a lifetime, I would be utterly amazed if,
after decades of use by a professional potter or at a busy school,
they still fit tightly and the bat pin holes were not enlarged. I have
never, ever, ever been to a school or pottery center that did not have
stacks of sloppily fitting bats with enlarges holes.
> The bats don't need to have
> anything sticking out of them, and no additional pieces of lumber screwed
> or
> glued onto them, so they are very compact in a stack.
Just to agree with you for once, you are correct, my bats are not
compact. My 30 or so bats make a stack 4 feet tall, so they take
up 2 square feet of floor space by my wheel.
>They can be made in
> whatever diameter you wish as long as they are large enough to span the
> wheelhead pins, and if you want smaller bats, you can route out a square
> recess in one Medex bat to accept bisque tiles as bats for small objects.
My bats can be made in any diameter as long as they are at least
a little larger than the wheelhead. But, I don't have to "make" them
at all, since they come pre-cut.
For smaller pieces made on smaller bats, I use 7" diameter double
tempered masionite, held on the aluminum wheelhead with a centered
pad of clay. No tool is required to remove them from the wheel when
finished, unlike bats with an area routed out of them for a smaller bat.
> Again, David, I admire your resoucefulness and ingenuity, but your
> inclination towards improvised homegrown solutions doesn't seem to justify
> condemning a system as ingenious as the standard bat pins.
I find this comment odd, since you have just spent several
paragraphs detailing all the work you do to make your own
bats. I didn't even have to cut my bats and didn't have to
carefully measure and drill holes in them, and I spend no more
time making my 'improvised homegrown solution' than your
homemade bats.
I know, Vince, that you will reply to this e-mail and refute all of
my comments, telling me that I am being ridiculous because
I do not want to make six balls of clay to hold a bat on a wheelhead
or use a screwdriver to remove a bat from the wheelhead, so we
will just have to disagree. For potters as experienced as we, many
things come down to opinions and preferences.
So, I'm done for this go-round, but I will continue to state my
opinion about the poor design of the bat pin system when, as
happens with great regularity on Clayart, people complain about
loose, poor-fitting, wobbly, and warped bats.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david(at)farmpots(dot)com
http://www.farmpots.com
Jennifer Boyer on thu 9 nov 06
Geeezzz Guys!
The beauty of Clayart is that there are people working in a myriad of
different environments ranging from schools to community studios to
state of the art home production studios to kitchen tables. One size
does NOT fit all: so anyone looking for input into a problem with
their little niche will certainly find someone on Clayart who has a
relevant comment. It would be a BIG problem if any one of us
pronounced our way of doing ANYTHING as the best. Diversity is our
strong suit here. Wouldn't it be nice if we all started each comment
with "Notice: the following is what works FOR ME. Maybe there are
some folks out there who will find this works for them too."
Of course it's always valuable when we bring up alternatives to
something someone has suggested. The alternative may speak to others
who work in different environments. But PLEASE let's not say that any
one of our ways of doing things is the best....
Sharing and conversation go better with give and take, and without
gauntlets thrown down all over the place.....
Jennifer full time potter since 1975, lover of bat pins, Giffin
Grips, sponge mops and all sorts of other maligned studio
tools....... TO EACH OUR OWN!
On Nov 9, 2006, at 1:30 AM, David Hendley wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vince Pitelka"
>
>> ..............but there's absolutely no down-side to having bat pins.
>
>
> Hi Vince, If you don't mind, I will use your own words to point out
> that there are, indeed many down-sides to having bat pins. I don't
> want this to seem like tit-for-tat, as cut and pasted responses can
> end up being, but just a way to organize my response.
Jennifer Boyer
http://www.vtpots.com
jennifer@vtpots.com
Montpelier. Vermont
Vince Pitelka on thu 9 nov 06
Dear David -
Since you responded "tit-for-tat" I shall do the same.
> Why in the world should I have to take the time to do that?
> I know it doesn't take long, but it is one more thing to do.
> What is a wheelhead for?
You're missing the point. Having a bat on there is a tremendous advantage
over just working on the wheelhead. Certainly any experienced potter will
know in advance whether or not he wants to use a bat, but isn't it possible
that you might discover that you'd like to lift the pot off the wheel on a
bat? If you don't have a bat on the wheel, you loose the pot. What's the
wheelhead for? For holding bats - that's just as valid a use as for direct
throwing.
> You gotta be kidding: you think fooling with putting 6 balls
> of clay in a circle on a wheelhead is a good use of your time?
> Again, it doesn't take that long each time, but it adds up and a
> good bat system should not require such a rig job to hold bats
> securely. It's inelegant, to say the least.
Inelegant? Compared to dealing with bats that are a few inches larger than
the wheelhead? I grab a smear of clay with one finger and depost six spots
on the wheelhead, and they stay there all day, one bat after another - I
only apply the six dots of clay once, and it takes a few seconds to do for a
whole day of throwing.
> Talk about poor design - a tool is required to remove the bat from
> the wheel? Another tool to pick up dozens of times a day, another
> tool to clean up after use, and another tool to misplace.
Naw, this doesn't wash either. The advantage of smaller bats that stack so
nicely certainly outweighs any disadvantage of using a screwdriver. You
keep it by your water bucket, and picking it up to flick the bat off the
wheel becomes intuitive - you don't even think about it.
> Of course, the biggest waste of time and frustration from bat pins
> occurs when working on a piece in stages and the holes in the bat
> have to be matched up to the bat pins to put it back on the wheel.
> This is especially not fun when the piece weighs 10 or 20 pounds.
Sorry Dave, but this ain't true either. It is a very simple matter to place
the bat back on the wheelhead when one is accustom to a bat pin system, even
with a heavy pot.
This interchange underscores the simle reality that different people come to
appreciate the system that they get used to over time, and they will swear
by that system. Yours works better for you, but I don't understand the
advantages of your system, and nothing you have said offers any reason why
yours is better than the bat pin system, which in my opinion offers distinct
advantages, especially in the academic setting. I don't expect to convince
you, but as a teacher, I am compelled to publicize a system that works well
for me and my students. I am not condemning you for your system, and in
fact I clearly stated my admiration for your resourceful and innovative
approach to the studio. The vast majority of throwers who use bats are
satisfied with the standard bat pin system, and it still baffles me that you
would condemn bat pins so strongly and publicly. There's no gain in that
for anyone. Talk up your bat system all you want - the more the better,
because it will have merit for some people, and it is an ingenious low-cost
system if one can live with the oversized bats. But it would be far more
graceful and generous to do so without such an aggressive condemnation of
the bat pin system.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
John Dellow on fri 10 nov 06
Vince Pitelka wrote:
>>
>> What is a wheelhead for?
>
>
> You're missing the point. Having a bat on there is a tremendous
> advantage
> over just working on the wheelhead. Certainly any experienced potter
> will
> know in advance whether or not he wants to use a bat, but isn't it
> possible
> that you might discover that you'd like to lift the pot off the wheel
> on a
> bat? If you don't have a bat on the wheel, you loose the pot. What's
> the
> wheelhead for? For holding bats - that's just as valid a use as for
> direct
> throwing.
>
I was going to let this subject pass over my head but I think for large ware throwers ,David's system would not work. I feel that if I tried to ease up for the first pull on one my smaller planters say 15kg then the friction between clay and hands would stop the bat and the wheel would continue rotating.
I do like cleats under the bat but use pins as a pad of clay will not hold when I ease up for the first time. The cleats allow ones fingers under the bat to pick it up again after its be moved from the wheel.
John
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
From the land down under
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://digitalfire.com/education/people/dellow/
Earl Brunner on fri 10 nov 06
Now I've known you guys for a long time, and I think very highly of you both........
but to quote somebody or other..........
"Can't we all just get along.....?"
This ain't worth fight'n over..............
Vince Pitelka wrote:
Dear David -
Since you responded "tit-for-tat" I shall do the same.
> Why in the world should I have to take the time to do that?
> I know it doesn't take long, but it is one more thing to do.
> What is a wheelhead for?
You're missing the point. Having a bat on there is a tremendous advantage
over just working on the wheelhead. Certainly any experienced potter will
know in advance whether or not he or she wants to use a bat, but isn't it
possible that you might discover that you'd like to lift the pot off the
wheel on a
bat? If you don't have a bat on the wheel, you loose the pot. What's the
wheelhead for? For holding bats - that's just as valid a use as for direct
throwing.
> You gotta be kidding: you think fooling with putting 6 balls
> of clay in a circle on a wheelhead is a good use of your time?
> Again, it doesn't take that long each time, but it adds up and a
> good bat system should not require such a rig job to hold bats
> securely. It's inelegant, to say the least.
Inelegant? Compared to dealing with bats that are a few inches larger than
the wheelhead? I grab a smear of clay with one finger and depost six spots
on the wheelhead, and they stay there all day, one bat after another - I
only apply the six dots of clay once, and it takes a few seconds to do for a
whole day of throwing.
> Talk about poor design - a tool is required to remove the bat from
> the wheel? Another tool to pick up dozens of times a day, another
> tool to clean up after use, and another tool to misplace.
Naw, this doesn't wash either. The advantage of smaller bats that stack so
nicely certainly outweighs any disadvantage of using a screwdriver. You
keep it by your water bucket, and picking it up to flick the bat off the
wheel becomes intuitive - you don't even think about it.
> Of course, the biggest waste of time and frustration from bat pins
> occurs when working on a piece in stages and the holes in the bat
> have to be matched up to the bat pins to put it back on the wheel.
> This is especially not fun when the piece weighs 10 or 20 pounds.
Sorry Dave, but this ain't true either. It is a very simple matter to place
the bat back on the wheelhead when one is accustom to a bat pin system, even
with a heavy pot.
This interchange underscores the simle reality that different people come to
appreciate the system that they get used to over time, and they will swear
by that system. Yours works better for you, but I don't understand the
advantages of your system, and nothing you have said offers any reason why
yours is better than the bat pin system, which in my opinion offers distinct
advantages, especially in the academic setting. I don't expect to convince
you, but as a teacher, I am compelled to publicize a system that works well
for me and my students. I am not condemning you for your system, and in
fact I clearly stated my admiration for your resourceful and innovative
approach to the studio. The vast majority of throwers who use bats are
satisfied with the standard bat pin system, and it still baffles me that you
would condemn bat pins so strongly and publicly. There's no gain in that
for anyone. Talk up your bat system all you want - the more the better,
because it will have merit for some people, and it is an ingenious low-cost
system if one can live with the oversized bats. But it would be far more
graceful and generous to do so without such an aggressive condemnation of
the bat pin system.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Kathi LeSueur on fri 10 nov 06
I've avoided weighing in on this issue but just can't help throwing in
my two cents.
I use different bats for different applications. I mainly use masonite
bats. But, I use them in a system similar to the one that Vince
recommends. I took four plastic bats of varying diameters, drilled holes
to fit the bat pins on my wheel, and then cut a square out of the
center of each to hold the four sizes of square bats that I cut from
masonite. A notch in each plastic bat allows me to pop them out with a
screw driver. I used to coat them with marine varnish but after reading
Bonnie Staffel's post on oiling them I went that less time consuming
route. I love using this system. I never have to touch a pot to remove
it from the wheel. I usually wire cut each piece. I find that I can work
extremely fast this way. Some of my masonite bats are almost thirty
years old. The plastic bats are about twenty years old. I just haven't
seen the deterioration of the holes that other talk about.
I throw large pots and platters on formica bats that have also been
drilled for my bat pins. This allows me to throw pots, take them off of
the wheel to stiffen slightly, and them put them back on to refine the
form. Some of these are over twenty years old. Again, there is not the
deterioration that others suggest. However, if this is a worry I suggest
applying lacquer to the bottom and sides.
I always wire cut large vases and platters. The platters are flipped
onto large plastic or formica bats as soon as the rim will allow. I use
large plastic nursery containers (10", 12" diameter) as chucks to trim
the large vases. Quality plant material comes in quality plasic pots
that are strong enough to do the job.
I also use formica bats to throw off of the hump. I just like it better
than centering on a metal wheel head.
This is the system that works well for me. It is simple and cheap.
Cutting the center hole in the plastic bat is simple and ripping a sheet
of Masonite gives you an amazing number of bats.
Kathi
Vince Pitelka on fri 10 nov 06
Dear David -
Since you responded "tit-for-tat" I shall do the same.
> Why in the world should I have to take the time to do that?
> I know it doesn't take long, but it is one more thing to do.
> What is a wheelhead for?
You're missing the point. Having a bat on there is a tremendous advantage
over just working on the wheelhead. Certainly any experienced potter will
know in advance whether or not he or she wants to use a bat, but isn't it
possible
that you might discover that you'd like to lift the pot off the wheel on a
bat? If you don't have a bat on the wheel, you loose the pot. What's the
wheelhead for? For holding bats - that's just as valid a use as for direct
throwing.
> You gotta be kidding: you think fooling with putting 6 balls
> of clay in a circle on a wheelhead is a good use of your time?
> Again, it doesn't take that long each time, but it adds up and a
> good bat system should not require such a rig job to hold bats
> securely. It's inelegant, to say the least.
Inelegant? Compared to dealing with bats that are a few inches larger than
the wheelhead? I grab a smear of clay with one finger and depost six spots
on the wheelhead, and they stay there all day, one bat after another - I
only apply the six dots of clay once, and it takes a few seconds to do for a
whole day of throwing.
> Talk about poor design - a tool is required to remove the bat from
> the wheel? Another tool to pick up dozens of times a day, another
> tool to clean up after use, and another tool to misplace.
Naw, this doesn't wash either. The advantage of smaller bats that stack so
nicely certainly outweighs any disadvantage of using a screwdriver. You
keep it by your water bucket, and picking it up to flick the bat off the
wheel becomes intuitive - you don't even think about it.
> Of course, the biggest waste of time and frustration from bat pins
> occurs when working on a piece in stages and the holes in the bat
> have to be matched up to the bat pins to put it back on the wheel.
> This is especially not fun when the piece weighs 10 or 20 pounds.
Sorry Dave, but this ain't true either. It is a very simple matter to place
the bat back on the wheelhead when one is accustom to a bat pin system, even
with a heavy pot.
This interchange underscores the simle reality that different people come to
appreciate the system that they get used to over time, and they will swear
by that system. Yours works better for you, but I don't understand the
advantages of your system, and nothing you have said offers any reason why
yours is better than the bat pin system, which in my opinion offers distinct
advantages, especially in the academic setting. I don't expect to convince
you, but as a teacher, I am compelled to publicize a system that works well
for me and my students. I am not condemning you for your system, and in
fact I clearly stated my admiration for your resourceful and innovative
approach to the studio. The vast majority of throwers who use bats are
satisfied with the standard bat pin system, and it still baffles me that you
would condemn bat pins so strongly and publicly. There's no gain in that
for anyone. Talk up your bat system all you want - the more the better,
because it will have merit for some people, and it is an ingenious low-cost
system if one can live with the oversized bats. But it would be far more
graceful and generous to do so without such an aggressive condemnation of
the bat pin system.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on fri 10 nov 06
Dear David -
Since you responded "tit-for-tat" I shall do the same.
> Why in the world should I have to take the time to do that?
> I know it doesn't take long, but it is one more thing to do.
> What is a wheelhead for?
You're missing the point. Having a bat on there is a tremendous advantage
over just working on the wheelhead. Certainly any experienced potter will
know in advance whether or not he or she wants to use a bat, but isn't it
possible that you might discover that you'd like to lift the pot off the
wheel on a
bat? If you don't have a bat on the wheel, you loose the pot. What's the
wheelhead for? For holding bats - that's just as valid a use as for direct
throwing.
> You gotta be kidding: you think fooling with putting 6 balls
> of clay in a circle on a wheelhead is a good use of your time?
> Again, it doesn't take that long each time, but it adds up and a
> good bat system should not require such a rig job to hold bats
> securely. It's inelegant, to say the least.
Inelegant? Compared to dealing with bats that are a few inches larger than
the wheelhead? I grab a smear of clay with one finger and depost six spots
on the wheelhead, and they stay there all day, one bat after another - I
only apply the six dots of clay once, and it takes a few seconds to do for a
whole day of throwing.
> Talk about poor design - a tool is required to remove the bat from
> the wheel? Another tool to pick up dozens of times a day, another
> tool to clean up after use, and another tool to misplace.
Naw, this doesn't wash either. The advantage of smaller bats that stack so
nicely certainly outweighs any disadvantage of using a screwdriver. You
keep it by your water bucket, and picking it up to flick the bat off the
wheel becomes intuitive - you don't even think about it.
> Of course, the biggest waste of time and frustration from bat pins
> occurs when working on a piece in stages and the holes in the bat
> have to be matched up to the bat pins to put it back on the wheel.
> This is especially not fun when the piece weighs 10 or 20 pounds.
Sorry Dave, but this ain't true either. It is a very simple matter to place
the bat back on the wheelhead when one is accustom to a bat pin system, even
with a heavy pot.
This interchange underscores the simle reality that different people come to
appreciate the system that they get used to over time, and they will swear
by that system. Yours works better for you, but I don't understand the
advantages of your system, and nothing you have said offers any reason why
yours is better than the bat pin system, which in my opinion offers distinct
advantages, especially in the academic setting. I don't expect to convince
you, but as a teacher, I am compelled to publicize a system that works well
for me and my students. I am not condemning you for your system, and in
fact I clearly stated my admiration for your resourceful and innovative
approach to the studio. The vast majority of throwers who use bats are
satisfied with the standard bat pin system, and it still baffles me that you
would condemn bat pins so strongly and publicly. There's no gain in that
for anyone. Talk up your bat system all you want - the more the better,
because it will have merit for some people, and it is an ingenious low-cost
system if one can live with the oversized bats. But it would be far more
graceful and generous to do so without such an aggressive condemnation of
the bat pin system.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Bonnie Staffel on sat 11 nov 06
I haven't heard this idea mentioned by anyone in the forum. If you have =
no
bat pins on your wheel head (I don't) and you want to throw a biggish =
bowl
on the wheel head, after throwing, I have cut a bevel cut at the bottom =
of
the pot and placed a big piece of newsprint cut into a circle on top of =
the
bowl. with it touching the entire rim. This stabilizes the rim so that =
you
can pick up the bowl with four spread fingers fitting on to the bevel at =
the
foot. Well, then you have to place the pot on a ware board or =
preferably on
a sheet of drywall so the bottom will dry. The paper remaining on the =
rim
will keep it from warping as well as holding back premature drying of =
the
walls. . =20
I have no idea of where I learned it, but it really works.
Bonnie Staffel
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD Beginning Processes
Charter Member Potters Council
Rogier Donker on sun 12 nov 06
:-)
... and then there are those of us who keep their mouths shut because
they grew up with the Amaco special head and the hydrocal plaster
bats that one made themselves using the special bat mold ring that
was supplied when one acquired the special head 42 years ago... still
swear by THAT system as being the best there is and the easiest... ah
well. :-)
Peace be with you all!
Rogier
(sucking oxygen, recuperating from a bad case of bronchitis.)
See us on the web at http://www.donkerstudio.org
| |
|
