Richard Walker on fri 8 dec 06
Just a brief introduction. I am Dick Walker, and have Muddy Duck Pottery, which I operate with my wife, Mary, in Tigard, Oregon. I have been reading the postings on Clayart for the past year and want to praise those of you who have so freely shared your knowledge, ideas, and expertise. I spent 30+ years in Oregon's secondary school system as a teacher and am now retired, as is my wife.
I have taken courses in woodworking, worked with Mary in ceramics, studied oil painting, silversmithing, and finally found my passion in clay, which I was introduced to in Arizona, and ended up taking courses from David Bradley. In the seven years since we have moved back to Oregon, we have set up our studio, started doing shows, and are now showing in approximately 10 gallery's in Oregon and Washington. Our next adventure will be taking workshops in mold making and raku firing through Seattle Pottery Supply in Seattle, WA.
Without going farther, please help me with this question. I have wanted to work with a base glaze receipe that calls for Colemanite. John and Roy in their book on Cone 6 Glazes, have suggested that this material should be avoided if possible. I looked colemanite up on the internet and found that it is part of the Borate family. My question is this, "What and/or is there a material that I can substitute for Colemanite?"
Thank you for your help,
Dick Walker, Muddy Duck Pottery
William & Susan Schran User on sat 9 dec 06
On 12/9/06 12:37 AM, "Richard Walker" wrote:
> My question is this, "What and/or is there a material that I can substitute
> for Colemanite?"
Gerstley Borate was/is the direct substitute.
I recall the switch back in the 1970's after Colemanite was no longer
available in the U.S.
Then a couple/few years ago mines were closed and G.B. Was to be no longer
available. Several manufacturers came up with various substitutes, but none
of them exhibited the same suspension qualities of the original. There is a
limited supply left from Laguna, but the make-up of it is inconsistent, the
boron amount has changed over time.
R.R. & J.H. have offered substitutions of frits for many folks with glazes
containing G.B. And have included several glazes in their book utilizing
frits as the flux.
I'd suggest you try to stick with frits as they will be much more consistent
batch to batch.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Marcia Selsor on sat 9 dec 06
welcome to Clayart, Dick.
The common substitute for Colemanite was gerstley Borate. That has
become less accessible. Good substitutes for that is Laguna Borate.
Also Frit 3124 can be used. Do little testing before mixing a big
batch. I often mix dry batches of glazes for raku and then dd water
to small quantities when I am ready to glaze. I don't like to have
the raku glazes sitting around. Colors seem better to me if the
glaze is freshly mixed.
Marcia Selsor
http://marciaselsor.com
On Dec 8, 2006, at 11:37 PM, Richard Walker wrote:
> Just a brief introduction. I am Dick Walker, and have Muddy Duck
> Pottery, which I operate with my wife, Mary, in Tigard, Oregon. I
> have been reading the postings on Clayart for the past year and
> want to praise those of you who have so freely shared your
> knowledge, ideas, and expertise. I spent 30+ years in Oregon's
> secondary school system as a teacher and am now retired, as is my
> wife.
>
> I have taken courses in woodworking, worked with Mary in ceramics,
> studied oil painting, silversmithing, and finally found my passion
> in clay, which I was introduced to in Arizona, and ended up taking
> courses from David Bradley. In the seven years since we have moved
> back to Oregon, we have set up our studio, started doing shows, and
> are now showing in approximately 10 gallery's in Oregon and
> Washington. Our next adventure will be taking workshops in mold
> making and raku firing through Seattle Pottery Supply in Seattle, WA.
>
> Without going farther, please help me with this question. I have
> wanted to work with a base glaze receipe that calls for
> Colemanite. John and Roy in their book on Cone 6 Glazes, have
> suggested that this material should be avoided if possible. I
> looked colemanite up on the internet and found that it is part of
> the Borate family. My question is this, "What and/or is there a
> material that I can substitute for Colemanite?"
>
> Thank you for your help,
>
> Dick Walker, Muddy Duck Pottery
>
> __
Mayssan Shora Farra on sat 9 dec 06
Hello all you who have Gerstly Borate withdrawal syndrom;
The substitute for Gerstly borate is Ferro frit 3134 but I found Gillespie
Borate ( which is controlled like a frit) to be the closest to Gerstley
Borate in most of the old recipes I used.
Of course I do use also new recipes from Mastering ^6 Glazes that use 3134
successfully.
At least these were MY results and to each their own.
Too lazy to do my own calculations,Mayssan
What a beautiful glistening winter day in Charleston WV USA
Dave Finkelnburg on sat 9 dec 06
Dick,
Welcome!
I am stressing a bit at the moment so pardon me if
this isn't totally focused. :-(
There is no perfect sub for Colemanite, in my
arrogant :-) opinion.
Colemanite is a naturally occurring hydrated
calcium borate. Thus it supplies calcium and boron to
our glazes. I don't know of a North American source
of Colemanite at this time.
Gerstley borate WAS the closest natural substitute
(it is a sodium calcium borate) but now IT is limited
in supply. GB has been widely variable in boron
content in the past. Substitues for it are being made
because it was so popular. None of those subs are
perfect either. :-(
Commercially manufactured boron sources include
Cadycal, Laguna Borate, Gillespie Borate, plus the
boron frits, particularly Ferro 3134 (Pemco 54) and
3124. You really need to use glaze calculation to
substitute any of these precisely. You need to do
some testing to see the result first hand. None will
behave exactly as the minerals did.
Good glazing,
Dave Finkelnburg, watching the winter sunrise
turn the sky pink in Idaho, USA
--- Richard Walker wrote:
"What and/or is there a material that I can
> substitute for Colemanite?"
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Kathy McDonald on sat 9 dec 06
Dave,
I totally agree.
I have used an old glaze called
Rhodes red for years...the colmanite
changed...the glaze changed...no other thing seems to work.
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of
Dave
Finkelnburg
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 9:21 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Introduction and Colemanite
Dick,
Welcome!
I am stressing a bit at the moment so pardon me if
this isn't totally focused. :-(
There is no perfect sub for Colemanite, in my
arrogant :-) opinion.
Colemanite is a naturally occurring hydrated
calcium borate. Thus it supplies calcium and boron to
our glazes. I don't know of a North American source
of Colemanite at this time.
Gerstley borate WAS the closest natural substitute
(it is a sodium calcium borate) but now IT is limited
in supply. GB has been widely variable in boron
content in the past. Substitues for it are being made
because it was so popular. None of those subs are
perfect either. :-(
Commercially manufactured boron sources include
Cadycal, Laguna Borate, Gillespie Borate, plus the
boron frits, particularly Ferro 3134 (Pemco 54) and
3124. You really need to use glaze calculation to
substitute any of these precisely. You need to do
some testing to see the result first hand. None will
behave exactly as the minerals did.
Good glazing,
Dave Finkelnburg, watching the winter sunrise
turn the sky pink in Idaho, USA
--- Richard Walker wrote:
"What and/or is there a material that I can
> substitute for Colemanite?"
____________________________________________________________
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Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com
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Helen Bates on sat 9 dec 06
Hi all,
According to this website, Colemanite "is back.!
http://www.colemanite.com/
"With improved production facilities honored by ISO 9002 certificate every
batch of UM Colemanite is tested for consistency and ready for your specific=
application. Whether you need 5 lbs. or 5,000 tons, we=92ll deliver it. "
The site belongs to Universal Materials, Hayward, California, USA.
http://www.universalmaterials.com/
http://universalborates.com/products/colemanite.html
http://www.colemanite.com/
Helen Bates, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Don Goodrich on sun 10 dec 06
Thanks, Helen, for bringing the availability of Colemanite to our attention.
I see from browsing websites that some of the local suppliers now offer it.
The analysis on the colemanite.com page differs somewhat from that in
my glaze software, and only totals about 82-84%. I wonder if the entire
remainder is LOI? There's also mention of up to 50 ppm of As2O3.
Anybody know if that amount of arsenic would present any risks in a liner
glaze?
At any rate, it would be interesting to try the old recipes with
Colemanite and see how they differ from what we've gotten accustomed to.
Don Goodrich
William & Susan Schran User on sun 10 dec 06
On 12/9/06 6:46 PM, "Helen Bates" wrote:
> According to this website, Colemanite "is back.!
> http://www.colemanite.com/
This is great news!
If this can remain a reliable source, I will start using it again in raku
glazes.
Haven't used colemanite since 1970's!
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
John Hesselberth on sun 10 dec 06
On Dec 9, 2006, at 12:37 AM, Richard Walker wrote:
> "What and/or is there a material that I can substitute for
> Colemanite?"
Hi Dick,
Welcome to Clayart! We always like to hear from potters who have
recently "found" us.
My response will duplicate some of what others have said with, maybe,
some more specific help on your question. First I would be very
reluctant to use colemanite in cone 6 glazes--even though it again
seems to be available. I just don't believe it is needed and it has
all the potential problems of Gerstley Borate--at least with the
information we have available now. While it has been 30 years or so
since I have had bag of colemanite to experiment with, I have
experimented a lot with Gerstley Borate. I have yet to find anything
I can do with GB at cone 6 that I can't do with a frit. And frits
are much more reliable and likely to be available over the long term.
Colemanite may have a role to play in raku glazes--I don't know, but
if I wanted to experiment with it that is where I would start.
But back to cone 6 glazes and frits. Ron and I have even made an
excellent chrome/tin dark pink we call Raspberry in MC6Gs. I was
advised by a number of people that could not be done with frits.
Well, I struggled a bit to do it, but Raspberry is a pretty fine
chrome/tin pink!
I have found the most helpful way to substitute for GB (and probably
for colemanite, although my experience there is limited) is to do it
on a molecular basis using glaze calculation software AND to also
replace any kaolin or china clay in the recipe with ball clay--again
on an equal molecular basis. I usually start with Ferro 3134 and OM4,
and vary from those two materials only if I can't get some other key
oxide to match up. The reason I choose 3134 is that it has no alumina
and lets you add more ball clay (a source of alumina) than you could
if you used a boron frit that contains a significant amount of
alumina (like 3124). The ball clay seems to be important in replacing
some of the "magical" aspects of GB which we don't fully understand.
The other reason to use 3134 is that you can use a whole lot less of
it than 3124 because of its relatively high boron oxide content. I
might choose 3195, 3269, or 3278 If I wanted less calcium and more
alkalis in the glaze than I was able to get with 3134.
So those are some thoughts of mine. Once you get familiar with any of
the glaze calculation programs, this kind of substitution becomes
fairly easy to do and it works most of the time--it is not perfect,
but it will generally get you close.
Regards,
John
Snail Scott on sun 10 dec 06
At 11:37 PM 12/8/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>"What and/or is there a material that I can substitute for Colemanite?"
Hah! Now that's a can of worms I'll bet you
never knew you were opening!
Colemanite is mainly seen in older recipes, as
it became inconsistent, then hard to get, and
was replaced with gerstley borate ("GB") by
nearly everyone. But now, gerstley borate is
less consistent and less available, so many
people are on yet another replacement search.
Some opt for 'recipe'-type replacements whipped
up from other materials and sold by various
suppliers under their trade names, including
Gillespie Borate, Boraq, Laguna Borate, Akiko
Borate and many more. Other people are using
frits to replace the colemanite/gerstley borate,
a favorite being Ferro 3134.
All of these options have somewhat different
properties than the old colemanite or gerstley
borate, though, so a good substitution on one
recipe may not work so well in another. In
effect, they become new recipes. Many people
have simply opted to quit using recipes that
call for either one.
-Snail
Leland Hall on mon 11 dec 06
Hi,
I'd like to try it myself. Has anyone had any dealings with this company?
Good bad or indifferent? Results with the product?
From what I can see on their website, they've been around at least a
while, and in a search of the archives, I see that this company and
the "return of Colmanite" was mentioned up to a year or so ago.
Thanks,
Leland Hall,
Before The Wheel]
La Pine, Oregon, USA
Peter's Email on mon 11 dec 06
From: "Leland Hall"
Subject: Re: Introduction and Colemanite
<Good bad or indifferent?>>
I emailed them twice, and never got a response. I also
noted that their Forum messages are dated 2003, so they
may not be too active :-)
Peter
New Mexico
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