Fredrick Paget on mon 18 dec 06
I think that this sort of use of clay is poor design . I see it all
the time. Artists make stuff that is so easily broken that it is a
wonder it even gets through a firing, Handles are for picking up and
swinging. Should be stout enough to take it. If you want the that
long skinny look make them out of steamed wood or cane or something
strong.
Fred
--
Twin Dragon Studio
Mill Valley, CA, USA
Randall Moody on tue 19 dec 06
It could be read that with the statement, "Artists make stuff that is so
easily broken that it is a wonder it even gets through a firing ..." That
you do not consider what you do "art". Your post makes it sound like you are
an engineer rather than an artist or even a craftsperson. "Can't have any
beauty, only function."
If the handle doesn't come off in one's hand, or break in the kiln or is
completely useless but still adds to the aesthetics of the piece then it is
good design.
Randall in Atlanta
On 12/18/06, Fredrick Paget wrote:
>
> I think that this sort of use of clay is poor design . I see it all
> the time. Artists make stuff that is so easily broken that it is a
> wonder it even gets through a firing, Handles are for picking up and
> swinging. Should be stout enough to take it. If you want the that
> long skinny look make them out of steamed wood or cane or something
> strong.
> Fred
> --
> Twin Dragon Studio
> Mill Valley, CA, USA
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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Nancy on tue 19 dec 06
Randall
I only make functional ware...NOT because I think art is improper use of
clay but because I like functional ware. I love what so many can do
with clay that makes it art. Those long handles are generally graceful
and extremely beautiful, I admire them but with 2 75+lb dogs and 2
himalayins...those aren't part of my collection :) .... I think the
only improper use of clay is to not make something with it
Nancy
www.hilltoppottery.com
Randall Moody wrote:
> It could be read that with the statement, "Artists make stuff that is so
> easily broken that it is a wonder it even gets through a firing ..." That
> you do not consider what you do "art". Your post makes it sound like
> you are
> an engineer rather than an artist or even a craftsperson. "Can't have any
> beauty, only function."
> If the handle doesn't come off in one's hand, or break in the kiln or is
> completely useless but still adds to the aesthetics of the piece then
> it is
> good design.
>
> Randall in Atlanta
>
> On 12/18/06, Fredrick Paget wrote:
>>
>> I think that this sort of use of clay is poor design . I see it all
>> the time. Artists make stuff that is so easily broken that it is a
>> wonder it even gets through a firing, Handles are for picking up and
>> swinging. Should be stout enough to take it. If you want the that
>> long skinny look make them out of steamed wood or cane or something
>> strong.
>> Fred
>> --
>> Twin Dragon Studio
>> Mill Valley, CA, USA
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots@pclink.com.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Randall Moody on tue 19 dec 06
"Function is beauty." I am not arguing that it isn't.
Think how boring a world with only strict functionalism would be. The Borg
from Star Trek come to mind. Also, to remove the "art" from ceramics or any
craftsman based media is to reduce the craftsman to being nothing more than
a machining device. If you do this then the craftsperson becomes useless,
since machines can make the strictly functional ware more efficiently.
Replace the artistic with strict functionalism and you get a machine-made
cup from WalMart or a styrofoam cup.
Fredrick Paget on tue 19 dec 06
You are right . I am an Engineer (BSEE Stanford '52)
I started in ceramics 50 years ago. Never made my living at it though .
Engineers can be Artists too. Consider the Golden Gate Bridge, for
example, or Leonardo DaVinci.
Since I retired 21 years ago I have tried to learn to be a good
potter, true I am most interested in the technical aspects of the
trade. For example I have spent a lot of time inventing a process to
make decals for ceramics with an inkjet printer, See my homepage for
how to do it:
It would not be hard to make a handle of some other material that
would be safe and functional and look just like it was ceramic. I
know an artist that routinely finishes up his major clay works with
touches of acrylic artist paints, You can't tell the difference
unless you take a scraper to it.
As an engineer I had to know and consider the strength of materials.
We were responsible for the works we put out into commerce. If we
screwed up the customers were unhappy or even dead. The live ones
and surviving relatives would sue.
If you want to make very fragile and easily breakable works, fine go
for it , take a picture of it, put it up on the internet, but please
don't try to sell it unless you have plenty of insurance. Start a
shard pile.
Fred Paget
--
Twin Dragon Studio
Mill Valley, CA, USA
fredrick@well.com
Charter Member Potters Council
Randall Moody on wed 20 dec 06
>
> If you want to make very fragile and easily breakable works, fine go
> >
> for it , take a picture of it, put it up on the internet, but please
> don't try to sell it unless you have plenty of insurance. Start a shard
> pile.
So all of you glass artists out there should just quit. George Ohr with his
eggshell thin works should have stuck with the planters and regular
housewares that he made. It would be interesting to hear from the artist who
makes the really long handles. I wonder what her failure rate on the handles
is.
I am not arguing that it should be all art and no funtion but rather that in
your first post you seemed to promote all function and no art. You even went
so far as to say "artists make..." as if to set yourself apart from being an
artist.
Lee Love on wed 20 dec 06
On 12/19/06, Randall Moody wrote:
> Your post makes it sound like you are
> an engineer rather than an artist or even a craftsperson. "Can't have any
> beauty, only function."
Function is beauty. The Shakers understood this:
Three Shaker Guidelines:
Industry:
"Do all your work as if you had a thousand years to live
and as if you were to die tomorrow."
Honesty:
"Be what we seem to be; and seem to be what we really are;
don't carry two faces."
Functionalism:
"That which in itself has the highest use possesses
the greatest beauty."
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
"When we all do better. We ALL do better." -Paul Wellstone
Vince Pitelka on wed 20 dec 06
Randall Moody wrote -
> So all of you glass artists out there should just quit. George Ohr with
> his
> eggshell thin works should have stuck with the planters and regular
> housewares that he made. It would be interesting to hear from the artist
> who
> makes the really long handles. I wonder what her failure rate on the
> handles
> is.
> I am not arguing that it should be all art and no funtion but rather that
> in
> your first post you seemed to promote all function and no art. You even
> went
> so far as to say "artists make..." as if to set yourself apart from being
> an
> artist.
Randall -
Glass and clay are very different in terms of resilience and durability in
different applications. An extremely thin glass vessel will stand up well
to use, and long thin glass handles such as the stem of a wine glass are
still practical for use. When clay vessels gets too thin they are no longer
of practical use, and clay stemmed vessels are short-lived unless the stems
are quite thick.
George Ohr certainly did make some pots with fantastic long curly handles,
but of course they would have been extremely impractical for regular use.
Long thin handles are fine for purely sculptural pieces, but I always feel
that they look very awkward on any vessel that otherwise seems functional.
Vessel asthetics are at least partially determined by the history of utility
and ergonomics. In other words, vessels that are easy and comfortable to
use, especially if their utility incorporates unexpected subtleties, are
often seen as very beautiful as well, and over time, the those subtleties of
utility end up steering our notions of beauty in pottery.
I have yet to see a pitcher or mug with an unnecessarily long curly handle
that is easy or comfortable to use. Same with handles that stick out too
far from the pitcher or mug. They just move the center of gravity further
from your hand, making the vessel awkward to use, and upsetting the overall
visual and physical balance.
Of course there are all sorts of opinions on this, but as one makes pots
over a long period of time, while constantly using and observing pots made
by other potters, it is inevitable that we become very sensitive to the
close interrelationship between practical utility, ergonomics, and aesthetic
beauty.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Randall Moody on wed 20 dec 06
My comments were directly related to "I think that this sort of use of clay
is poor design . I see it all
the time. Artists make stuff that is so easily broken that it is a
wonder it even gets through a firing, Handles are for picking up and
swinging." and If you want to make very fragile and easily breakable works,
fine go for it ,
take a picture of it, put it up on the internet, but please
don't try to sell it unless you have plenty of insurance. Start a shard
pile."
and these comments were in direct relation to the items on the website. Long
handles such as shown on the website are not "poor design" nor are handles
only for "picking up and swinging". I am still wondering what Mr. Paget
considers himself since he sets himself apart from artists. My point is that
"art" and "function" are intertwined in good design. You can't have truly
good design without both.
"Glass and clay are very different in terms of resilience and durability in
different applications." Thanks for the info... I didn't know that. (I say
while smirking.)
On 12/20/06, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
>
>
> Randall -
> Glass and clay are very different in terms of resilience and durability in
> different applications. An extremely thin glass vessel will stand up well
> to use, and long thin glass handles such as the stem of a wine glass are
> still practical for use. When clay vessels gets too thin they are no
> longer
> of practical use, and clay stemmed vessels are short-lived unless the
> stems
> are quite thick.
>
> George Ohr certainly did make some pots with fantastic long curly handles,
> but of course they would have been extremely impractical for regular use.
> Long thin handles are fine for purely sculptural pieces, but I always feel
> that they look very awkward on any vessel that otherwise seems functional.
> Vessel asthetics are at least partially determined by the history of
> utility
> and ergonomics. In other words, vessels that are easy and comfortable to
> use, especially if their utility incorporates unexpected subtleties, are
> often seen as very beautiful as well, and over time, the those subtleties
> of
> utility end up steering our notions of beauty in pottery.
>
> I have yet to see a pitcher or mug with an unnecessarily long curly handle
> that is easy or comfortable to use. Same with handles that stick out too
> far from the pitcher or mug. They just move the center of gravity further
> from your hand, making the vessel awkward to use, and upsetting the
> overall
> visual and physical balance.
>
> Of course there are all sorts of opinions on this, but as one makes pots
> over a long period of time, while constantly using and observing pots made
> by other potters, it is inevitable that we become very sensitive to the
> close interrelationship between practical utility, ergonomics, and
> aesthetic
> beauty.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
> Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
> vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 21 dec 06
Dear Randall Moody,
I seem to recall long, long ago that there was an aesthetic philosophy =
of "Truth to Materials". In the case of a long slender handle the =
"Bone" ( conceptual element ) is a line. A line may infer flexibility =
and elasticity. Unfired ceramic is flexible but inelastic. Fired Ceramic =
is inflexible and inelastic. If this is so, where does the truth lay.
But then again, it all depends on what your mean by.............
Best regards. Hoping all readers of and contributors to Clayart have a =
wonderful time among family and friends during the Festive Season and =
great satisfaction from their lives in 2007, and to those who have been =
"crook", better health and well being.
Ivor
Erik Harmon on thu 21 dec 06
I think you are mostly right. Function is part of beauty maybe for me the biggest part. I dont think the shakers had the whole thing right.
Erik
Lee Love wrote:
On 12/19/06, Randall Moody wrote:
> Your post makes it sound like you are
> an engineer rather than an artist or even a craftsperson. "Can't have any
> beauty, only function."
Function is beauty. The Shakers understood this:
Three Shaker Guidelines:
Industry:
"Do all your work as if you had a thousand years to live
and as if you were to die tomorrow."
Honesty:
"Be what we seem to be; and seem to be what we really are;
don't carry two faces."
Functionalism:
"That which in itself has the highest use possesses
the greatest beauty."
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
"When we all do better. We ALL do better." -Paul Wellstone
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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