Warren Heintz on sat 23 dec 06
Hi,
You do what you do and he and others do what they
do,viva la difference! I can't explain why you or I
might feel the way that you mention. I know at one
time I had similar feelings,but as time went on I
realized that there are many different ways of doing
things and many different people doing those
things,each unique. I finally got to a point with
myself and my work,in that what I did was all that
mannered. Don't get me wrong I do appreciate the works
of others a great deal,but that's all,no envy. However
I do take note of how someone does something,and use
that information if it applies. The only competion
that I am in is with myself,to be better at what I do.
sacredclay wrote:
> I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek
> to examine some
> things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it.
> but in this
> case, which happened about a month ago and I have
> spoken to two
> potters about it.I was hired at one place to replace
> a young man in
> his early twenties because he didn't know anything
> about handbuilding
> and that he didn't seem to mesh well with the older
> students i.e. he
> interacts better with people his age. He is still
> there in the
> position of cleaning the studio once a week. I open
> the studio two
> Saturdays a month and once, he came in and sat next
> to me and started
> throwing. I couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he
> threw beautifully!He
> is a very nice man, easy going and never said
> anything bad to me. And
> yet,I, a 45 supposedly mature woman, was green with
> envy. I like to
> think I'm not childish (at times!) but this
> disturbed me. I've spoke
> to another woman, who told me that I was jealous
> becuase motherhood
> interrupted my journey of skills at the age he is.
> but I wasn't a
> mother until 36. So what gives? Why am I like this?
> I'm happy for the
> kid. I'm happy for anyone that is succeeding at what
> they love. Am I
> insecure enough to think that someone is going to
> tap me on the
> shoulder and say,"You poor delusional dear! You
> thought you were
> really good? Tsk!" Who deals with this? How do you
> deal with it?
> Honesty please. With warmest regards to all, Kathryn
> in NC whose two
> kids are merrily singing "Jingle bells! Batman
> smells! Robin laid an
> egg!"
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
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Ann Brink on sat 23 dec 06
Maybe it made him feel good to be able to show you how well he could throw,
considering that he lost his position to you because of your superior
handbuilding skills. Are you asking yourself whether you would feel this
way if he were your exact age or older? A feeling that "younger"="less
skilled" may be a remnant of childhood thinking, where skills were usually
taken for granted to be a linear progression corresponding to age. I think
the only way to deal with it is to empathize with what he may be feeling,
(and watch closely if he throws next to you again-one can always absorb one
tiny thing more)
Ann Brink in Lompoc CA...wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and sending
THANKS to Mel & Joyce.
(mostly about pottery)
----- Original Message -----
From: "sacredclay"
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Jealousy has reared his ugly green head
I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek to examine some
things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it. but in this
case, which happened about a month ago and I have spoken to two
potters about it.I was hired at one place to replace a young man in
his early twenties because he didn't know anything about handbuilding
and that he didn't seem to mesh well with the older students i.e. he
interacts better with people his age. He is still there in the
position of cleaning the studio once a week. I open the studio two
Saturdays a month and once, he came in and sat next to me and started
throwing. I couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he threw beautifully!He
is a very nice man, easy going and never said anything bad to me. And
yet,I, a 45 supposedly mature woman, was green with envy. I like to
think I'm not childish (at times!) but this disturbed me. I've spoke
to another woman, who told me that I was jealous becuase motherhood
interrupted my journey of skills at the age he is. but I wasn't a
mother until 36. So what gives? Why am I like this? I'm happy for the
kid. I'm happy for anyone that is succeeding at what they love. Am I
insecure enough to think that someone is going to tap me on the
shoulder and say,"You poor delusional dear! You thought you were
really good? Tsk!" Who deals with this? How do you deal with it?
Honesty please. With warmest regards to all, Kathryn in NC whose two
kids are merrily singing "Jingle bells! Batman smells! Robin laid an
egg!"
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
--
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Lee Love on sun 24 dec 06
Never too late to learn!
My late mother took up painting in her 50s. She taught
herself and became very good.
I was a 50 year old apprentice sitting next to 20 year olds.
At first, I thought "Man. I wish I did this when I was 20!" But
then I realized, "I probably couldn't have done it or appreciate it as
much then."
Go for it!
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
"When we all do better. We ALL do better." -Paul Wellstone
stephani stephenson on sun 24 dec 06
I hope the moment has passed.
I can't explain your jealosy but
you know, many times one can have insecurities
or competitve aspects of their nature
which flash or flare when we they are challenged.
use the heat of that experience to better your own
skills
seems like you have already gotten the dominant
position
so celebrate the guy's skills for goodness sake
if it is more than 'admiration for his skill, i mean
if it is really jealosy
Don't let it get the better of you.
To be jealous because someone is a skilled potter is
not healthy.
to be jealous of someone because he is younger,
skilled and you have taken his job is has something
of a cruel edge to it.
my other guess would be that you might be establishing
territory, i.e. getting somewhat and perhaps overly
territorial in your new habitat.
this can be an issue in group studios. so check
yourself.
especially if you are in a position of responsibility
in the studio, this can be a real drawback. so snap
out of it.
sorry if this sounds bah humbuggy, but ..... c'mon
Stephani Stephenson
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June Perry on sun 24 dec 06
Kathryn,
With your honesty and his niceness, I would think it would be safe to just
tell him how impressed you are with his throwing and ask him for some tips or
offer to pay him to watch you throw and give you some lessons to improve your
throwing.
Regards,
June
http://shambhalapottery.blogspot.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/shambhalapottery
Donna Kat on sun 24 dec 06
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:43:13 -0000, sacredclay wrote:
>I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek to examine some
>things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it. but in this
>case, which happened about a month ago and I have spoken to two
>potters about it.I was hired at one place to replace a young man in
>his early twenties because he didn't know anything about handbuilding
>and that he didn't seem to mesh well with the older students i.e. he
>interacts better with people his age. He is still there in the
>position of cleaning the studio once a week. I open the studio two
>Saturdays a month and once, he came in and sat next to me and started
>throwing. I couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he threw beautifully!He
>is a very nice man, easy going and never said anything bad to me. And
>yet,I, a 45 supposedly mature woman, was green with envy. I like to
>think I'm not childish (at times!) but this disturbed me. I've spoke
>to another woman, who told me that I was jealous becuase motherhood
>interrupted my journey of skills at the age he is. but I wasn't a
>mother until 36. So what gives? Why am I like this? I'm happy for the
>kid. I'm happy for anyone that is succeeding at what they love. Am I
>insecure enough to think that someone is going to tap me on the
>shoulder and say,"You poor delusional dear! You thought you were
>really good? Tsk!" Who deals with this? How do you deal with it?
>Honesty please. With warmest regards to all, Kathryn in NC whose two
>kids are merrily singing "Jingle bells! Batman smells! Robin laid an
>egg!"
I often feel envious of another's talent. Not a bad thing in my opinion.
It inspires me to put in the effort to develop my own. Jealousy on the
other hand implies resentment which isn't a good thing for your own well
being.
If your children were older you could think of this young man as your own
child that you feel proud of for having a beautiful skill. As it is he is
probably seen more as competition than someone you want to protect and
nurture. In any case it is simply a learning experience and in my book any
learning experience is good even if it does cause some pain.
Donna
P.S. I grew up with a very racist brother-in-law and as a young adult I was
appalled to find a voice echoing in my head with a negative response to a
stranger that was of a different clan. It later occurred to me that we
forever carry with us both the good and the bad things we have heard in our
life. What matters is how we choose to act on those thoughts. The clothes
you try on in a store are not necessarily the ones you choose to buy and wear.
beardiepaw on sun 24 dec 06
Well said, June. Or offer to trade tips on throwing for your tips on han=
dbuilding. I love to barter. Sher Morrow
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 24 dec 06
All I have to say is...these people obviously have issues. Don't make them
yours.
We all make choices for our own reasons. Only you are the judge of making
the ones for you. No one can judge your choices because they haven't lived
your life. Someone will always throw better, be more beautiful, have
smarter kids, more money...insert your hot button here.....than you.
Use your envy creatively. If you want to throw better, than throw more and
more stuff. Find a mentor. Take a workshop. Go to a museum - - with a
guide. Travel. One's work is made up of one's life experiences as much as
anything else. So that guy throws well. So what. He has no people skills.
Me, I can't handbuilt for shit, yet I and to make sculpture. I took a
handbulding workshop years ago, with Thomas Kerrigan. What I learned:
loved him; hated handbuilding.
...Lo
Who had her second kid at 42, and feels that motherhood gave her the reason
she needed to pursue clay full-time. Interrupted my child-bearing ass.
Lois Ruben Aronow Ceramics
232 Third Street - # B202A
Brooklyn, NY 11215
p: 917..561..2854
f: 718..246.0819
www.loisaronow.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Donna Kat
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 11:01 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Jealousy has reared his ugly green head
>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:43:13 -0000, sacredclay
> wrote:
>
> >I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek to examine some
> >things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it. but in
> this case,
> >which happened about a month ago and I have spoken to two
> potters about
> >it.I was hired at one place to replace a young man in his early
> >twenties because he didn't know anything about handbuilding
> and that he
> >didn't seem to mesh well with the older students i.e. he interacts
> >better with people his age. He is still there in the position of
> >cleaning the studio once a week. I open the studio two Saturdays a
> >month and once, he came in and sat next to me and started
> throwing. I
> >couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he threw beautifully!He is a very
> >nice man, easy going and never said anything bad to me. And
> yet,I, a 45
> >supposedly mature woman, was green with envy. I like to
> think I'm not
> >childish (at times!) but this disturbed me. I've spoke to another
> >woman, who told me that I was jealous becuase motherhood
> interrupted my
> >journey of skills at the age he is. but I wasn't a mother
> until 36. So
> >what gives? Why am I like this? I'm happy for the kid. I'm happy for
> >anyone that is succeeding at what they love. Am I insecure enough to
> >think that someone is going to tap me on the shoulder and
> say,"You poor
> >delusional dear! You thought you were really good? Tsk!" Who
> deals with
> >this? How do you deal with it?
> >Honesty please. With warmest regards to all, Kathryn in NC whose two
> >kids are merrily singing "Jingle bells! Batman smells! Robin laid an
> >egg!"
>
> I often feel envious of another's talent. Not a bad thing in
> my opinion.
> It inspires me to put in the effort to develop my own.
> Jealousy on the other hand implies resentment which isn't a
> good thing for your own well being.
>
> If your children were older you could think of this young man
> as your own child that you feel proud of for having a
> beautiful skill. As it is he is probably seen more as
> competition than someone you want to protect and nurture. In
> any case it is simply a learning experience and in my book
> any learning experience is good even if it does cause some pain.
>
> Donna
>
> P.S. I grew up with a very racist brother-in-law and as a
> young adult I was appalled to find a voice echoing in my head
> with a negative response to a stranger that was of a
> different clan. It later occurred to me that we forever
> carry with us both the good and the bad things we have heard
> in our life. What matters is how we choose to act on those
> thoughts. The clothes you try on in a store are not
> necessarily the ones you choose to buy and wear.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Robert Seele on sun 24 dec 06
And if you are at handbuilding, why not help each other ?
bob
On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:55 AM, June Perry wrote:
> With your honesty and his niceness, I would think it would be safe
> to just
> tell him how impressed you are with his throwing and ask him for
> some tips or
> offer to pay him to watch you throw and give you some lessons to
> improve your
> throwing.
>
> Regards,
> June
sacredclay on sun 24 dec 06
I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek to examine some
things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it. but in this
case, which happened about a month ago and I have spoken to two
potters about it.I was hired at one place to replace a young man in
his early twenties because he didn't know anything about handbuilding
and that he didn't seem to mesh well with the older students i.e. he
interacts better with people his age. He is still there in the
position of cleaning the studio once a week. I open the studio two
Saturdays a month and once, he came in and sat next to me and started
throwing. I couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he threw beautifully!He
is a very nice man, easy going and never said anything bad to me. And
yet,I, a 45 supposedly mature woman, was green with envy. I like to
think I'm not childish (at times!) but this disturbed me. I've spoke
to another woman, who told me that I was jealous becuase motherhood
interrupted my journey of skills at the age he is. but I wasn't a
mother until 36. So what gives? Why am I like this? I'm happy for the
kid. I'm happy for anyone that is succeeding at what they love. Am I
insecure enough to think that someone is going to tap me on the
shoulder and say,"You poor delusional dear! You thought you were
really good? Tsk!" Who deals with this? How do you deal with it?
Honesty please. With warmest regards to all, Kathryn in NC whose two
kids are merrily singing "Jingle bells! Batman smells! Robin laid an
egg!"
claystevslat on sun 24 dec 06
Envy's not a nice feeling, but you can often do good things with
unpleasant feelings. If you feel he throws better than you do,
I could understand your discomfort -- he lost a job you got, and
he's got skills you fear you lack.
Perhaps the next time you have a moment and he's throwing, you could
ask if it's OK to watch? Examine his technique, ask him about his
understanding of clay ... tell him why you admire what you like, and
learn from him. I take it you were hired to teach in his place;
remember that you were hired to teach, perhaps he throws well but
can't communicate well. (And wouldn't it speak well of your
interpersonal skills if you and he became friendly?)
Lots of people can do things well and can't teach well; the reverse
is sometimes true -- I've learned a great deal from potters of only
moderate skill. You've been hired to teach. Be a good teacher and
you're a success. Don't worry about how or why you got the job.
Best wishes -- Steve S
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, sacredclay wrote:
>
> I am sometimes brutally honest with myself and seek to examine some
> things. Sometimes I don't give a rat's ass about it. but in this
> case, which happened about a month ago and I have spoken to two
> potters about it.I was hired at one place to replace a young man in
> his early twenties because he didn't know anything about
handbuilding
> and that he didn't seem to mesh well with the older students i.e.
he
> interacts better with people his age. He is still there in the
> position of cleaning the studio once a week. I open the studio two
> Saturdays a month and once, he came in and sat next to me and
started
> throwing. I couldn't stand it! I was jealous! he threw beautifully!
He
> is a very nice man, easy going and never said anything bad to me.
And
> yet,I, a 45 supposedly mature woman, was green with envy.
sacredclay on mon 25 dec 06
Dear Stephani, I probably really deserved that wet noodle slap, as it
did seemed like that. I wasn't trying to gloat over his misfortune,
because I did replaced him, which I feel bad about and told him that
at another time. I'm ususally encouraging others that they can do
this and that they can be the best they can be. What caught me off
guard and totally unprepared is the feelings that reared its ugly
side. Why? What was I jealous of? For god's sake, I'm old enough to
be his mom and should be happy for him that he can throw so well. but
why this ugly moment? It's not who I am. I'm not a bad person. Yes, I
know you didn't say that. Alot of the personal responses that I got
off site were encouraging and reflective and similiar to their
expereinces. I do not usually interact alot with people and when I
do, it's usually in the role as a teacher. This is why I bare myself,
warts and all because I wanted to know who else feels this way or
not? Am I really that human? In my twenties, I thought I would be a
well know potter by the time I was 45 and that I will excel at what I
do. Alot of things don't always turn out the way we thought. I didn't
realized at that unrealistic age that I had to work for it. I
expected it to glide ride up to me. Foolish me, but I've learned one
thing from Clayarters- we are very similiar to each other and we
always want to help each other, despite the personality
difference.And I learn the biggest leasons of all-I'm not alone and I
will always have people who will be honest with me. Thank you again,
Stephani, I didn't take any offense at anything you've said and I
really do appreciate it. Happy Holidays! With warmest regards to you
and all who were kind enough to respond to this, Kathryn in NC --
-
William & Susan Schran User on mon 25 dec 06
On 12/24/06 2:10 PM, "claystevslat" wrote:
> Lots of people can do things well and can't teach well; the reverse
> is sometimes true -- I've learned a great deal from potters of only
> moderate skill. You've been hired to teach. Be a good teacher and
> you're a success.
I agree with Steve.
Just be the best teacher you can be.
The recognition of strengths & weaknesses is often the first hurdle for any
teacher. You're there.
There are many folks out there that are technically better at wheel throwing
than me. They do it all the time. I'm not jealous or envious of their skill.
I teach, that is my joy, that is my skill. I also love the opportunity to be
in my studio, seeking the next challenge - and there are many.
Don't forget, to be a good teacher, you must also be a good learner.
I've said it before, I learn as much from my students as they do from me.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Belinda Willis on mon 25 dec 06
Kathryn,
Several ClayArters have advised you in how to deal with the surprise
jealousy that reared its ugly head but none of the responses I read spoke
of dealing with the jealousy itself. Even tho you knew it was
inappropriate, you still felt the jealousy, it effected the chemistry of
your body and that effected the way you responded - or wanted to respond -
to the event. It was wonderful that you realized the jealousy was not you.
You felt yourself separate from it or you would not have had the ability to
recognize it as jealousy. BIG step!!
There is an interesting experiment you can play with yourself...tho its
better played with a close and trusted friend. I'll explain the close
friend version and you'll be able to adapt it.
You sit opposite your friend. In very few words, you tell your friend how
you felt. The friend asks you "What made you feel that way?" You will find
something inside you that caused the feeling and you verbalize it. Then
responding to THAT answer, your friends asks "What made you feel that way?"
and something deeper within you will reveal itself and you verbalize it.
Responding to that answer, your friends asks "What made you feel that
way?" and something even deeper within you will reveal itself and you
verbalize it. You get the picture here. Your friend can say nothing
but "What made you feel that way?"...no comments on what you said, no
alternate views of what comes up, nothing but "What made you feel that
way?" Each time you'll uncover something new and each time your friend
will ask what created the feeling to this new realization. This exchange
can go on for 30 or 45 minutes, you getting deeper and deeper into
yourself. Eventually you will arrive at the core of your jealousy. The
reason you must do this with a trusted friend is because you may be
surprised, embarrassed, overwhelmed, but eventually you will be
cleansed...and healed... by your responses to the question.
For fun, let the question be "What do you want?" That one will take you to
astonishing places!
The process won't be as effective if you work it by yourself so find a good
friend and go for it.
Have fun!
Belinda Willis
www.greatpottery.com
stephani stephenson on tue 26 dec 06
hi Kathryn
yes, no meanness intended!
all of the standard disclaimers apply...when you ask a
couple of thousand strangers to be brutally honest
about a situation
concerning two people they(most of them ) don't know
and a situation they don't know in depth...
you know most of the responses will be a shotgun
approach and will have more to do with the responder's
viewpoints rather then your personal situation.
but in my vague recollection you did specifically
ask for brutal...and though i hope i stopped well shy
of that, .and perhaps because i don't know you i
decided to be sobering instead of sympathetic in a
response
.
seriously, the things i mentioned in my response were
things i have learned from personal experience and
observation in studio and work situations so decided
my contribution would be to encourage you to examine
the issue objectively, professionally and in light of
overall studio operation and tone. not that you
wouldn't do that on your own. just my first take.
i think when you ask for advice from CLAYART
..actually i don't quite know what the metaphor is.
you throw a handful of seeds into a fan
and wait to see what blows back at you...all kinds of
things, some which apply and are useful and some which
are not...
Use what you can and let the rest blow by.
best wishes Kathryn and good luck in your new
situation!
Stephani Stephenson
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sacredclay on mon 1 jan 07
STephani, You are so sweet to say all of this. but I took no offense
at anything you said.I appreciated everything that everyone has
spoken, and the imagery of throwing seeds into the fan is very
fitting.Yours, and everyone else response was just perfect. I have
alot to chew over. It's just that my reaction to this emotion really
really caught me off guard.And brutal is fine. Like alot of people,
I'm looking inward at myself and trying to find out what's there. One
person had suggested that I ask myself why am I like that and to keep
asking myself that question for each answer. I think off hand, the
answer is that I'm afraid to die without having made some great pots.
That should not be be the ultimate experience for me, as some might
say, I'm afraid to have die without being a hgood
parent/friend/lover/person/etc. but I did say off handedly, to die
without having made at least one really great pot in which everyone
will know that i'ts Kathryn in NC that made it. The fear of
inadequency that plagues us.I'm sorry if I may have sounded
defensive/angry/bratty/etc. All in all, all of the responses has
helped me, including yours, so I thank each and ecery one of you for
helping me. When I ever do get to meet you, dear Stephani, I am going
to hug the HAIL out of you. smooch Kathryn in NC >
> > i think when you ask for advice from CLAYART
> ..actually i don't quite know what the metaphor is.
> you throw a handful of seeds into a fan
> and wait to see what blows back at you...all kinds of
> things, some which apply and are useful and some which
> are not...
> Use what you can and let the rest blow by.
> best wishes Kathryn and good luck in your new
> situation!
>
> Stephani Stephenson
>
>
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