Nancy Udell on fri 2 feb 07
I feel I must respond to T. Robert's post (below) for the sake of
other electric kiln users who might be considering a purchase of the
nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves marketed by Axner/ Laguna for
use in electic kilns... (http://www.pottery-books.com/axner/equipment/
nitride-bonded-shelves.php#round)
I am the person referenced in T. Robert's email below who made the
"original complaint" posted on clay art about the nitrite bonded
silicon carbide shelves. Let me be very very clear. The issue with
these shelves was (IMHO) that they were improperly packed and
manhandled by UPS. I could be wrong, but if the breakage was due to
"atmosphere and firing schedule"' then Laguna/ Axner needs to
seriously change it's marketing info on these shelves.
Background:
The shelves were shipped from Axner/Laguna without a SINGLE piece of
info on suggested usage or firing schedule. The Axner website
(through which I purchased the shelves) has no info on suggested
firing schedule or suggested usage info. When I got the shelves, I
called Axner and talked to Tea (the resident potter) who said no
special precautions were necessary, Nonetheless, I was very
cautious. I brought the shelves inside and let them warm up. (It's
cold out here!) Then I left them in the kiln room during a firing
with my old shelves. Then I fired them using Cone Fire Mode ^06
without any load. Then after all that, I fired them using the
following shcedule with a bisque load.
My bisque firing (in which the shelves broke) is as follows:
200 hr to 200 hold 1 hr
500 hr to 1000
50 hr to 1125
250 hr to 1695
80 hr to 1944
9999 hr to 1125
50 hr to 1000
I am firing in a Skutt 1227 and using an envirovent.
Of the four full 26" shelves, two cracked and one broke in half:
This schedule takes about 15 hours, hardly a "fast fire and crash cool."
If the nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves cannot hold up in this
oxidation firing, then what can they hold up to?
Again, IMHO, Laguna has behaved very very badly in this instance. I
understand this is a new product and they are trying to work out the
kinks, but I was not asking to have them compensate me for my time
lost on a lost load due to the shelf breakage. All I was asking was
that they take the shelves back and pay shipping both ways. I spent
a lot of time on the phone with the resident potter from Axner (from
whom I bought the shelves). I made it clear to her that the shelves
were shipped without protection on all 4 sides (foam injection on one
side and a foam bar on the opposite -- two sides unprotected except
for squares of the hard kind of styrofoam -- and the boxes were beat
up when they arrived (I have photos)). Nonetheless, she asked me to
go over my firing schedule with her because Laguna wanted to know. I
told her the exact info above. She said that she would issue a pick
up ticket and UPS would pick up the shelves.
My husband and I spent a lot of time and energy repacking the shelves
into the original boxes and packaging materials -- no easy task. Now
the shelves have been sitting ouside my front door for a week. The
Axner folks have promised that UPS will come pick them up. That has
not happened. I called Axner every day this week leaving messages
for the customer service person asking her to at least do me the
courtesy of calling me back to tell me why the boxes were not picked
up. She did call me back today (Friday) and promised once again that
UPS would pick up the boxes, but that did not happen today.
Meanwhile, Laguana has not issued a credit to me for the defective
merchandise and I have had to dispute the charge with my credit card
company.
The final indignity is the post below vagely claiming that the
breakage was due to my firing schedule and (!) use of an
environvent. Yeesh.
Dear T. Robert -- If indeed it is your opinion that these shelves
cannot be used in an electric kiln with an envirovent and a firing
schedule like the one detailed above, then you should not be selling
them for use in an electric kiln without disclosing this info both on
the webiste and in explanatory literature enclosed with the sheves
(of which there was none when I got my shelves).
Nancy Udell
Santa Fe, NM
T Robert on tue 30 jan 07
There have been a number of postings to Clay Art recently regarding
shipment of Nitride Bonded shelves from Axner /Laguna.
Like any and all company=92s who utilize services to ship
merchandise,
there are occasions where items arrive damaged. This has been
extremely rare with Axner / Laguna due to our vast experience in
packing and shipping. Nonetheless, we will continue examining our
packing and shipping methods in order to improve standards when
and where essential.
Meanwhile, the original complaint posted, regarding shelves
breaking
after being fired, and attributed to shipping, has been researched.
After learning the atmosphere and firing schedule of the shelves in
question, it has been determined that the breakage was due to
use of
vent and crash cooling method in a radiantly heated (electric)
kiln.
Nitride Bonded shelves have a high thermal expansion and are most
sensitive to thermal shock in fast firing and or cooling
applications.
This is much more so the case in a radiantly heated kiln. Heat
transfer begins at the heat source (elements) and moves to the
coolest point (the center). When you have a solid 1-piece shelf
with
little porosity and high thermal expansion, it will experience a
sizeable
differential temperature between the perimeter and center. In
addition
the use of a vent/ fan should be discouraged as it is drawing
cool air
in and along the edges of the wide flat shelves while the center
remains hot. Even using precautions during quartz conversion
portions of the firing, the Nitride bonded shelves (or any other
shelves
for that matter) are susceptible to cracking and breaking using
fast
firing and cooling methods in a radiantly heated environment.
The advantages of using the nitride-bonded shelves are with out
question excellent. However, those persons using them in
oxidation/electric kilns must be aware of issues regarding high
thermal expansion and heat transfer and adjust their firings
accordingly.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
T. Robert
Axner Laguna
Production Manager
Resident Potter
Larry Kruzan on sat 3 feb 07
Sadly the Axner we knew is gone and in its place is a corporate giant with
lawyers and accountants and folks who think of clay as just inventory, who
only wish to cover their well padded behind - padded by our wallets. The
days of potters calling Axner and speaking to potters are gone - no matter
what their title is. I too had recent dealings with them that have caused
me to use other suppliers for all my needs. Customer service is now a joke,
since no one in Florida has any authority, they have to go begging to
California office types for permission to do anything - and the answer is
always the same - the potter is left holding the bag. We miss you Howard.
Larry Kruzan
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Nancy Udell
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:56 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] Nitrite Bonded Sil Carbide Shelves
I feel I must respond to T. Robert's post (below) for the sake of
other electric kiln users who might be considering a purchase of the
nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves marketed by Axner/ Laguna for
use in electic kilns... (http://www.pottery-books.com/axner/equipment/
nitride-bonded-shelves.php#round)
I am the person referenced in T. Robert's email below who made the
"original complaint" posted on clay art about the nitrite bonded
silicon carbide shelves. Let me be very very clear. The issue with
these shelves was (IMHO) that they were improperly packed and
manhandled by UPS. I could be wrong, but if the breakage was due to
"atmosphere and firing schedule"' then Laguna/ Axner needs to
seriously change it's marketing info on these shelves.
Background:
The shelves were shipped from Axner/Laguna without a SINGLE piece of
info on suggested usage or firing schedule. The Axner website
(through which I purchased the shelves) has no info on suggested
firing schedule or suggested usage info. When I got the shelves, I
called Axner and talked to Tea (the resident potter) who said no
special precautions were necessary, Nonetheless, I was very
cautious. I brought the shelves inside and let them warm up. (It's
cold out here!) Then I left them in the kiln room during a firing
with my old shelves. Then I fired them using Cone Fire Mode ^06
without any load. Then after all that, I fired them using the
following shcedule with a bisque load.
My bisque firing (in which the shelves broke) is as follows:
200 hr to 200 hold 1 hr
500 hr to 1000
50 hr to 1125
250 hr to 1695
80 hr to 1944
9999 hr to 1125
50 hr to 1000
I am firing in a Skutt 1227 and using an envirovent.
Of the four full 26" shelves, two cracked and one broke in half:
This schedule takes about 15 hours, hardly a "fast fire and crash cool."
If the nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves cannot hold up in this
oxidation firing, then what can they hold up to?
Again, IMHO, Laguna has behaved very very badly in this instance. I
understand this is a new product and they are trying to work out the
kinks, but I was not asking to have them compensate me for my time
lost on a lost load due to the shelf breakage. All I was asking was
that they take the shelves back and pay shipping both ways. I spent
a lot of time on the phone with the resident potter from Axner (from
whom I bought the shelves). I made it clear to her that the shelves
were shipped without protection on all 4 sides (foam injection on one
side and a foam bar on the opposite -- two sides unprotected except
for squares of the hard kind of styrofoam -- and the boxes were beat
up when they arrived (I have photos)). Nonetheless, she asked me to
go over my firing schedule with her because Laguna wanted to know. I
told her the exact info above. She said that she would issue a pick
up ticket and UPS would pick up the shelves.
My husband and I spent a lot of time and energy repacking the shelves
into the original boxes and packaging materials -- no easy task. Now
the shelves have been sitting ouside my front door for a week. The
Axner folks have promised that UPS will come pick them up. That has
not happened. I called Axner every day this week leaving messages
for the customer service person asking her to at least do me the
courtesy of calling me back to tell me why the boxes were not picked
up. She did call me back today (Friday) and promised once again that
UPS would pick up the boxes, but that did not happen today.
Meanwhile, Laguana has not issued a credit to me for the defective
merchandise and I have had to dispute the charge with my credit card
company.
The final indignity is the post below vagely claiming that the
breakage was due to my firing schedule and (!) use of an
environvent. Yeesh.
Dear T. Robert -- If indeed it is your opinion that these shelves
cannot be used in an electric kiln with an envirovent and a firing
schedule like the one detailed above, then you should not be selling
them for use in an electric kiln without disclosing this info both on
the webiste and in explanatory literature enclosed with the sheves
(of which there was none when I got my shelves).
Nancy Udell
Santa Fe, NM
T Robert on tue 30 jan 07
There have been a number of postings to Clay Art recently regarding
shipment of Nitride Bonded shelves from Axner /Laguna.
Like any and all company=92s who utilize services to ship
merchandise,
there are occasions where items arrive damaged. This has been
extremely rare with Axner / Laguna due to our vast experience in
packing and shipping. Nonetheless, we will continue examining our
packing and shipping methods in order to improve standards when
and where essential.
Meanwhile, the original complaint posted, regarding shelves
breaking
after being fired, and attributed to shipping, has been researched.
After learning the atmosphere and firing schedule of the shelves in
question, it has been determined that the breakage was due to
use of
vent and crash cooling method in a radiantly heated (electric)
kiln.
Nitride Bonded shelves have a high thermal expansion and are most
sensitive to thermal shock in fast firing and or cooling
applications.
This is much more so the case in a radiantly heated kiln. Heat
transfer begins at the heat source (elements) and moves to the
coolest point (the center). When you have a solid 1-piece shelf
with
little porosity and high thermal expansion, it will experience a
sizeable
differential temperature between the perimeter and center. In
addition
the use of a vent/ fan should be discouraged as it is drawing
cool air
in and along the edges of the wide flat shelves while the center
remains hot. Even using precautions during quartz conversion
portions of the firing, the Nitride bonded shelves (or any other
shelves
for that matter) are susceptible to cracking and breaking using
fast
firing and cooling methods in a radiantly heated environment.
The advantages of using the nitride-bonded shelves are with out
question excellent. However, those persons using them in
oxidation/electric kilns must be aware of issues regarding high
thermal expansion and heat transfer and adjust their firings
accordingly.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
T. Robert
Axner Laguna
Production Manager
Resident Potter
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
William & Susan Schran User on sat 3 feb 07
On 2/2/07 11:55 PM, "Nancy Udell" wrote:
> I could be wrong, but if the breakage was due to
> "atmosphere and firing schedule"' then Laguna/ Axner needs to
> seriously change it's marketing info on these shelves.
This is the warning that is posted on the Smith-Sharpe web site regarding
Advancer nitride bonded shelves:
http://www.kilnshelf.com/SSFBS_Common_Sense.pdf
There is no mention about thermal shock/crash cooling in the warning.
Only issue is potential electrical shock if shelf contacts an element.
I have sent Smith-Sharpe an inquiry about the Advancer shelves and any
issues of thermal shock when used in an electric kiln. I will be interested
to read their response to see if they make mention of the variables of
radiant heating from the elements and use of a vent system.
We use Advancers in our gas kiln frequently getting to 1000=B0F in 2 - 3 hour=
s
and have had no cracking or breaking.
At this point I'm not certain, but IMHO, when a nitride bonded shelf is
properly positioned in an electric kiln allowing a 1" space between shelf &
wall/element that there would not be enough variation of heating between th=
e
edge and middle of the shelf to cause thermal breakage.
--=20
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Michael Wendt on sat 3 feb 07
Nancy,
Are these shelves full layer shelves or half shelves?
I think your schedule is quite conservative.
If the cracks occurred in shipping, tapping lightly
to check the ring character is one way to
detect them because sound shelves usually
ring in a clear tone while cracked ones have
a funny "buzz" sound like a cracked plate
ring when tapped.
Half shelves are easier to diagnose cracking
since crack location tells which part was hotter.
If you think of the heat cycle, the edge is hotter
than the center and can stretch the center
more than it can stand so the cracks are in the
center of the shelf.
If crash cooling is the case, the cracks happen on
the outer edge because it contracts faster than
the hot center and is stretched.
Brittle materials are usually weaker in tension
than compression.
Robert's comments about the envirovent could be
a factor on the way down but I doubt that
there is enough air flow on the way up to
be a factor unless you have some kind of
very large air leak like a loose peep hole
plug or a gapped lid.
We always turn off the vent just prior to final temp
because we don't want the kiln to crash cool.
Check the pyrometer rate for cooling next time
and plot that too.
As a trivial but worth mentioning aside:
Nitrites are NO2 compounds
Nitrides are N3 compounds and contain
no oxygen molecules. These are
Nitride bonded shelves, not Nitrite.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
USA
208-746-3724
http://www.wendtpottery.com
wendtpot@lewiston.com
Chris Groat on sat 3 feb 07
I'm not real sure what kind of shelves I have. They're cream colored and
they came with my Skutt kiln. After the first few firings almost all of
them cracked. None broke in half, but almost all of them cracked in some
way. I called Skutt and they sent me a complete new set of shelves for
free, AND I didn't have to send the old ones back! Well... the new set
cracked too, but I still use them. I've never had one break. I suppose
when the shelves heat up, they expand and seal the crack, but I also think
a day will come when the kiln will cool too quickly and a shelf will
break. Sorry to hear about your experience with these shelves. It's
definitely a bummer, but thanks for sharing the info. At least I know what
not to buy.
Chris
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 4 feb 07
Dear Chris Groat,=20
I am wondering if anyone knows anything about the load rating for =
shelves, shelves made from any of the materials.
What is the maximum mass, in kilos or pounds that can be loaded onto a =
shelf. Does the span make a difference. Does the thickness make a =
difference. Does the material make a difference. Does the firing =
temperature make a difference.
Suppliers might like to tackle this one. Anything from the manufacturers =
on this?
I use Mullite shelves, 18" square 5/8 thick. Never had any crack. They =
bow if I do not reverse them but cracking, no.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Paul Borian on sun 4 feb 07
what i would do is continue to post this bad experience but use Axner's
name in the heading so everyone can read about it. Once the folks at axner
realize the bad publicity you just may find them a little more eager to
refund your money. Keep at it and give it a few weeks, see what happens.
I bought four shelves from laguna a while back and they cracked immediately
and i posted info about it right away. Then i called to get a refund and
the lady i spoke with already knew about the problem because she read it on
clayart and they did not hesitate to give a refund.
by the way why were you messing around with nitride bonded shelves in an
electric kiln anyway? do you really need them for cone 6 or whatever? Why
not just get some good high alumina (not thorleys) shelves?
Paul
knoelle2@yahoo.com on sun 4 feb 07
I think Laguna/Axner is doing bad business to treat a
customer like this. I myself know that there is no
reason to use Nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves
in an oxidizing electric kiln - but their website
doesn't make it clear.
I just wrote to Axner/Laguna - and told them I had
read about the cracked shelves on Clay Att, and that I
considered their response to the customer to be
incorrect and unfair and that I have decided not to
order anything from them until I hear that the problem
is resolved. And, that I am advising my potter
friends to do the same.
Kathleen
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
William & Susan Schran User on sun 4 feb 07
On 2/3/07 6:30 PM, "Chris Groat" wrote:
> I'm not real sure what kind of shelves I have. They're cream colored and
> they came with my Skutt kiln. After the first few firings almost all of
> them cracked.
The shelves are cordierite and may be from Thorley, recently the subject of
cracking problems written about on this forum.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
William & Susan Schran User on sun 4 feb 07
On 2/4/07 9:28 AM, "knoelle2@yahoo.com" wrote:
> I myself know that there is no
> reason to use Nitrite bonded silicon carbide shelves
> in an oxidizing electric kiln
The main reason is weight.
If one has a 28/29" kiln and fires to ^10, a cordierite shelf needs to be
3/4" - 1" thick to avoid warpage over time.
For some folks, reaching down into a top loading kiln, trying to lift a
shelf that weighs more than 20 pounds is just too much.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Chris Groat on sun 4 feb 07
That's right. I just took a closer look at my shelves and they do say
Thorley on them. Perhaps I should search the archives to learn some more
information about them. They are all cracked, but they seem to be working
fine without any slumping. They also sent me a new set for free, so I
can't complain. It just sucks because I know the day one of them breaks
will be the day that the kiln is fully loaded with some nice pots and I'm
sure I'll lose all of them. So now I know the shelves that are considered
bad, but what is considered to be a good shelf?
Maurice Weitman on sun 11 feb 07
Hello, Jon,
I'll start off by saying that I've never owned or used the shelves
under discussion.
I'm a lightweight (heh!) Laguna customer (I own a Pacifica wheel and
use some Laguna clay bodies from time to time, but certainly not to a
consistent or large degree. Some well-respected potters whose work I
admire swear by Laguna's bodies, so I know that you're doing some
things very well.
And my dealings with Axner, the man and his (former) company have
been very satisfying. I've appreciated the way Howard and his
company stood behind his/their products and seemed to take pride in
their reputation for quality products and for satisfying their
customers.
Reading the horror stories of post-Laguna Axner (and Thorley)
customer service has been dismaying; one can only imagine how painful
this must be for Howard, his family, and their former employees.
In my past life in/as a suit, I was involved in many mergers,
takeovers, buyouts, etc., and I know how difficult they can be for
all stakeholders, including customers.
As a customer, I strive to develop and maintain good relationships
with my vendors and suppliers. Beyond my desire to have pleasant
interactions with people, it stands to reason that a customer can
only benefit from cordial or better dealings with our suppliers.
So I hesitated to write this.
But I think Laguna has dropped the ball, and I think your note (and
T's) smack of insulting, condescending, cover-your-ass nonsense.
I'll bet that you have seen some vendors getting slammed here on
clayart. As you probably know, this happens off-list, too. Potters
dish about their experiences when they meet at conferences,
workshops, shows, wherever. It's one thing for a vendor to sell an
inferior product. Unfortunately, all manufacturers don't have the
same levels of pride in their products or commitments to their
customers. Notice how differently, say, Paragon and Olympic are
spoken of?
In the past, Howard Axner worked hard to engender loyalty by
responding quickly to our problems and standing behind his products.
He made things right when they went wrong. His name was good because
of that.
Notice how favorably Bailey's products and service were compared to
yours? Go back and read, for instance, about how much more carefully
their shelves were packed for shipment compared to your Thorleys.
Read about how responsive their phone support is compared to yours.
It's a pity all companies (and people) don't understand or value this.
Your 35-year-old historical reference to why sensible people would
never use your shelves in an electric kiln is quite fascinating.
Have you checked out Axner's web pages lately? T wrote this:
>For Bill and those of you interested in really learning about the different
>kinds of SiC shelves [...]
>
>Manufacturers and suppliers of silicone carbide products have
>stepped up and are providing these innovative products to the
>marketplace. The consumer/ user needs to understand and educate
>themselves of the choices and make intelligent decisions as to the
>products that will best suit their individual situation & applications.
Call me old fashioned, but I thought that a vendor should represent
its products fairly and honestly. If there was any other
"intelligent decision" a buyer should make, shouldn't the dealer
provide that information? Or at least NOT provide misleading
information?
Instead, Axner's web page
offers, in part, these warnings:
*Never place hands or shelves into an operating kiln.
*TURN OFF electric source to elements whenever you are loading and
unloading your electric kiln.
*Loading or unloading Nitride Bonded Silicon Carbide shelves in an
electric kiln while power is on may result in high voltage electric
shock.
*DO NOT USE Nitride Bonded Silicone Carbide shelves in an electric
kiln if elements are dislodged or hanging from element channels.
All very sensible precautions any user of an electric kiln should
follow, regardless of the type of shelves. But nowhere does it
mention anything about the shelves not being suitable for use in
electric kilns. In fact, there's a picture of (presumably those
shelves in) an electric kiln. There is no mention of special firing
schedules, expansion rates, problems with using vents, etc.
And there's nothing mentioning or corroborating Jon's points:
>35 years ago I was taught not to put silicon carbide shelves into an
>electric kiln [...] because they
>are more susceptible to cracking than Corderite ones. What the exact
>scientific basis is for that I'm not clear on. But I had always taken this
>to be good common sense.
Then came Jon's parable about his journey to his "old potter buddies"
>and see what they thought. The general
>feeling was, "It's not that you can't use silicon carbide shelves in a
>electric kiln, it's just that they conduct electricity and that they are
>more susceptible to failure than the Corderite type shelves". The reasons
>most common for this consensus on failure was the way an electric kiln heats
>up, radiant heat in particular, and the high expansion rate of silicon
>carbide shelves.
This is great stuff... pity Axner's web pages don't say that. You,
T, and Laguna now seem to say we used your shelves in an unsuitable
kiln, and that we should have known better.
>This seemed to be agreed upon amongst this group and was
>once again considered pretty much common sense. There's that tricky phrase
>again.
Now here's my question to you: Where's your common sense? How can
you give these paragraphs of unnamed old potter buddies anecdotes
while disregarding what you advertised?
Blaming the victim, your customer who buys your faulty and/or
unsuitable merchandise is NOT common sense or good business sense.
Your far-fetched justifications only serve to make you, Laguna, and
the new Axner look worse.
Make your customers happy. Do the right thing. It's simple. Your
business's reputation is priceless; don't squander it to escape your
responsibility.
There seems to be a common thread with how Laguna treated its
customers of Thorley's seemingly defective shelves or shipping
methods after Laguna bought Thorley, and their complicity if not
direct influence over how Laguna/Axner and Laguna is dealing with
these shelves.
>We live in a society that has
>come to blame everything on someone else and takes no responsibility for
>it's own actions or lack of knoweldge.
Very true, Jon. I wonder whether the irony of your words escapes you.
>But before you take those shots, at least make an effort to be knowledgeable
>about the subject of your complaints and be sure the reasons you have for
>those complaints are valid ones.
You betcha.
See you in Louisville!
Regards,
Maurice
Jon Pacini on sun 11 feb 07
Greetings All --Hi Maurice--- you brought up some very good points
Maurice. And I hope that both Laguna and Axners will pick up and run
those points.
I am not the President of Laguna or even a Vice President like Howard
is, but in my own small part of Laguna I strive to be forthright and
honest with customers. Hence Laguna's reputation for clay, I consider it
my reputation. I have however been accused of being brutally honest,
IMHO I'm rarely condescending and I think you may be reading something
into my post if you think it was meant to be insulting. But frankly, I
don't do well with people who claim ignorance after the fact. I think
there is a lot to be said for doing your investigations into a products
suitability before hand.
I consider myself lucky to have been afforded the opportunity to toss my
two cents out there from time to time on this forum, particularly when I
think I have something reasonable to say. And I'll stand by what I have
to say about Silicon Carbide shelves because that's been my experience.
You're possibly right about having that type of info on the web sight,
but it is also possible to ask around on a forum such as this and get
insight into whether or not what you have in mind for any given product
is really suitable. Something I would heartily advocate.
If I were the King of Ceramics, I'd no doubt run things a bit
differently, but I'm not. That there may or may not be omissions on any
suppliers web site, Laguna's, Bailey's or whomever's, I think is going
to be inevitable and I doubt it is intended to be misleading. I find
that rather cynical. As I said in my original post ---I don't think you
can cover all eventualities. Sometimes the most obvious ones are those
that get overlooked. I think the original info on these web sites was
given in all honesty, and reflects what was supplied to the vendors by
the manufacturer of the shelves.
I was told that Bailey has recently revamped their site installing some
additional info along with the words "Common Sense" in large red
underlined letters on the web page regarding these shelves. I think I
might have been on the right track there.
As for any Irony that T and I bring forth--- keep in mind that the
companies we work for give us the latitude to express our opinions on
these subjects. That those opinions differ from the advertising from
time to time is inevitable. We're not talking heads, we're potters who
have been around the block. We are going to give our opinions as we see
it, and I'm sure our opinions will even differ from each others on
certain subjects. What we have attempted to do over the last week or so
is to present the tech info and our experience, even though it may have
been over looked in the first place. We are trying very hard to get you
the info you want and need.
Hindsight is as tricky as common sense.
And stop talking about Howard in the past tense. You'd think he was
dead. He's still there in Oviedo grappling with all the day to day
dilemmas of his company.
Look forward to seeing you in Louisville too, I hope you like dark beer.
Best regards
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
-----Original Message-----
From: Maurice Weitman [mailto:momud4@mo.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:25 AM
To: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
Cc: jpacini@lagunaclay.com
Subject: Re: Nitrite Bonded Sil Carbide Shelves
Hello, Jon,
I'll start off by saying that I've never owned or used the shelves
under discussion.
I'm a lightweight (heh!) Laguna customer (I own a Pacifica wheel and
use some Laguna clay bodies from time to time, but certainly not to a
consistent or large degree. Some well-respected potters whose work I
admire swear by Laguna's bodies, so I know that you're doing some
things very well.
And my dealings with Axner, the man and his (former) company have
been very satisfying. I've appreciated the way Howard and his
company stood behind his/their products and seemed to take pride in
their reputation for quality products and for satisfying their
customers.
Reading the horror stories of post-Laguna Axner (and Thorley)
customer service has been dismaying; one can only imagine how painful
this must be for Howard, his family, and their former employees.
In my past life in/as a suit, I was involved in many mergers,
takeovers, buyouts, etc., and I know how difficult they can be for
all stakeholders, including customers.
As a customer, I strive to develop and maintain good relationships
with my vendors and suppliers. Beyond my desire to have pleasant
interactions with people, it stands to reason that a customer can
only benefit from cordial or better dealings with our suppliers.
So I hesitated to write this.
But I think Laguna has dropped the ball, and I think your note (and
T's) smack of insulting, condescending, cover-your-ass nonsense.
I'll bet that you have seen some vendors getting slammed here on
clayart. As you probably know, this happens off-list, too. Potters
dish about their experiences when they meet at conferences,
workshops, shows, wherever. It's one thing for a vendor to sell an
inferior product. Unfortunately, all manufacturers don't have the
same levels of pride in their products or commitments to their
customers. Notice how differently, say, Paragon and Olympic are
spoken of?
In the past, Howard Axner worked hard to engender loyalty by
responding quickly to our problems and standing behind his products.
He made things right when they went wrong. His name was good because
of that.
Notice how favorably Bailey's products and service were compared to
yours? Go back and read, for instance, about how much more carefully
their shelves were packed for shipment compared to your Thorleys.
Read about how responsive their phone support is compared to yours.
It's a pity all companies (and people) don't understand or value this.
Your 35-year-old historical reference to why sensible people would
never use your shelves in an electric kiln is quite fascinating.
Have you checked out Axner's web pages lately? T wrote this:
>For Bill and those of you interested in really learning about the
>different kinds of SiC shelves [...]
>
>Manufacturers and suppliers of silicone carbide products have stepped
>up and are providing these innovative products to the marketplace. The
>consumer/ user needs to understand and educate themselves of the
>choices and make intelligent decisions as to the products that will
>best suit their individual situation & applications.
Call me old fashioned, but I thought that a vendor should represent
its products fairly and honestly. If there was any other
"intelligent decision" a buyer should make, shouldn't the dealer
provide that information? Or at least NOT provide misleading
information?
Instead, Axner's web page
>
offers, in part, these warnings:
*Never place hands or shelves into an operating kiln.
*TURN OFF electric source to elements whenever you are loading and
unloading your electric kiln.
*Loading or unloading Nitride Bonded Silicon Carbide shelves in an
electric kiln while power is on may result in high voltage electric
shock.
*DO NOT USE Nitride Bonded Silicone Carbide shelves in an electric
kiln if elements are dislodged or hanging from element channels.
All very sensible precautions any user of an electric kiln should
follow, regardless of the type of shelves. But nowhere does it
mention anything about the shelves not being suitable for use in
electric kilns. In fact, there's a picture of (presumably those
shelves in) an electric kiln. There is no mention of special firing
schedules, expansion rates, problems with using vents, etc.
And there's nothing mentioning or corroborating Jon's points:
>35 years ago I was taught not to put silicon carbide shelves into an
>electric kiln [...] because they are more susceptible to cracking than
>Corderite ones. What the exact scientific basis is for that I'm not
>clear on. But I had always taken this to be good common sense.
Then came Jon's parable about his journey to his "old potter buddies"
>and see what they thought. The general
>feeling was, "It's not that you can't use silicon carbide shelves in a
>electric kiln, it's just that they conduct electricity and that they
>are more susceptible to failure than the Corderite type shelves". The
>reasons most common for this consensus on failure was the way an
>electric kiln heats up, radiant heat in particular, and the high
>expansion rate of silicon carbide shelves.
This is great stuff... pity Axner's web pages don't say that. You,
T, and Laguna now seem to say we used your shelves in an unsuitable
kiln, and that we should have known better.
>This seemed to be agreed upon amongst this group and was
>once again considered pretty much common sense. There's that tricky
>phrase again.
Now here's my question to you: Where's your common sense? How can
you give these paragraphs of unnamed old potter buddies anecdotes
while disregarding what you advertised?
Blaming the victim, your customer who buys your faulty and/or
unsuitable merchandise is NOT common sense or good business sense.
Your far-fetched justifications only serve to make you, Laguna, and
the new Axner look worse.
Make your customers happy. Do the right thing. It's simple. Your
business's reputation is priceless; don't squander it to escape your
responsibility.
There seems to be a common thread with how Laguna treated its
customers of Thorley's seemingly defective shelves or shipping
methods after Laguna bought Thorley, and their complicity if not
direct influence over how Laguna/Axner and Laguna is dealing with
these shelves.
>We live in a society that has
>come to blame everything on someone else and takes no responsibility
>for it's own actions or lack of knoweldge.
Very true, Jon. I wonder whether the irony of your words escapes you.
>But before you take those shots, at least make an effort to be
>knowledgeable about the subject of your complaints and be sure the
>reasons you have for those complaints are valid ones.
You betcha.
See you in Louisville!
Regards,
Maurice
__________ NOD32 2053 (20070211) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Fredrick Paget on sun 11 feb 07
Remember those kiln elements called Globars? They are silicon
carbide. They conduct electricity
Probably the reason for all the warnings from the shelf supplier is
that silicon carbide shelves are a pretty good conductor of
electricity. Their lawyers are worried that somebody will get a bad
shock and sue them if the shelf touches an energized element while
the customer has a good tight grip on it.
Fred .
--
Twin Dragon Studio
Mill Valley, CA, USA
Nancy Udell on mon 12 feb 07
Wow, Jon, talk about killing your parents and then throwing yourself
on the mercy of the court becuase you are an orphan. As they say,
that's hutzpa.
I have been out of town helping with some family medical problems so
I missed Jon's post. Maurice, thank you for so eloquently making
many of the points I would have made in response to Jon's email. I
will add some facts particular to my situation because I am one of
the people without "common sense" to know better than to use these
shelves in an electric kiln.
In connection with our move out here last year, I splurged and bought
a new kiln. It was a Skutt 1227. For eight years prior I had been
using a Skutt 1027 without a controller. Both kilns used corderite
shelves. With the 1027 I never had any problem with the corderite
shelves cracking.
The new kiln (purchased in early '06) came with a set of corderite
shelves. They cracked and cracked and cracked. I wondered whether I
was doing something wrong, was it the new kiln, my firing schedule,
etc. I finally went down to my supplier (Santa Fe Clay) and said "Is
it me?" Cindy walked me into the back room and showed me a mountain
of other cracked and broken corderite shelves. "It's not you," she
said.
She gave me new shelves to replace the cracked ones and all the way
through the fall I went through the process of washing the new
shelves, using them, having them crack, loading them into the car,
taking them in to SF clay, bringing home new shelves and ... beep,
begin again.
On this list and at my supplier, the answer was the same. When
Laguna took over Thorley (the maker of the corderite shelves) there
was a problem with process and or formula for making the shelves and
they have not solved it. And Laguana just kept shipping the
defective shelves to suppliers and there was nothing we could do.
Needless to say (despite my lack of common sense) I became
frustrated. I started looking around for alternatives to the
corderite shelves, even though they (under normal circumstances) make
sense for an electric kiln.
Lo and behold, on the Axner website, I saw a banner. "New! Nitrite
Bonded Silicone Carbide Shelves" and clicking in I saw to my surprise
that these shelves were being marketed particularly to electric kiln
users. They were now being made in the shape of an electric kiln: "
High Quality/Affordable Nitride Bonded Shelves for Top-Loading Round
Kilns" The site said (and still says). And the site said (and says)
that the shelves were
"* Super Thin
* Light-weight
* Low Thermal Mass
* Phenomenal Strength
* High Temp Ratings
* No Warp"
In addition to the prospect of not having to drag my corderite
shelves down to my supplier after each firing, I was interested in
the full shelf option. I do a lot of large slabs and large patters
and I liked the idea that I could have a full shelf. I had used
silicon carbide shelves before when I fired a salt kiln for a year
with a friend back east, but these seemed to be a new, different
animal-- and now were being made to fit electric kilns.
I turned to clayart as I almost always do. I am a lawyer by
training, not a potter. Except for a few workshops over the years, I
am self taught in clay and have learned many many many of the things
I know from this list -- for which, by the way, I am very grateful.
It's a wonderful resource and people are very generous with their
time and knowledge.
I read every post on the list about these shelves. Folks were saying
they seemed pretty good. These shelves are often referred to on the
list as the ones "made in china." They were getting good reviews.
I didn't see anything on the list particularly addressing electric
kiln use but since they were clearly being manufactured in the
electric kiln shape (and since I lack common sense and don't have
potter friends that go back 35 years) I assumed that aspect was not
an issue.
I called my supplier and asked whether they had the shelves for
electric kilns as were advertised on the Axner web site. She told me
they were coming in slowly from Laguana and she didn't know when they
would be available. Since I just couldn't stand dealing with the
Thorley breakage any more, I went ahead and ordered them through the
Axner site.
I have detailed in other posts to this list the precautions I took
before firing the shelves with load for the first time, so I won't go
through that again. But I will stress (because I'm not sure whether
I mentioned this and because it's particularly important in light of
Jon's post) that I did call Axner and check to see whether any
special preautions were necessary. There was no literature in the
box and there were (and are) no instructions on the web site. I
didn't even know whether to wash the shelves or not (people on this
list do it different ways). The resident potter at Axner said no
special precautions were necessary and I should just fire away.
In light of all this, Jon Pacini's long post about the (lack of)
common sense implied by using these shelves in an electric kiln is
patently absurd. Particularly ridiculous, Jon, is your statement
that you could send out a copy of "Clay & Glazes" the 300 page tome
with each order, but "is it really expected that a supplier should
supply disclaimers and instructions on all products covering every
situation that could possibly come up?"
Earth to Jon: the shelves are IN THE SHAPE OF AN ELECTRIC KILN AND
ARE BEING MARKETED FOR USE IN AN ELECTRIC KILN. There is even a
picture of them in an electric kiln on the website. What planet are
you living on if using them in an electric kiln then falls into the
category of a "situation that could possibly come up." I mean really.
I hope that these posts will be helpful to others without the
requisite common sense to decipher the marketing materials for these
shelves. The bottom line for me is that I have to go back to the
thorleys and hope that Laguna has sorted out that problem.
The problem with corporate giants is not that they are inherently
bad, and I do think that Laguna is a good company in many ways --
particularly the clay, Jon, which is a joy. The problem is that
consumer options and leverage shrink as industries consolidate.
Clay Art is a wonderful resource and I thank once again those of you
who make it possible and te many who so generously contribute.
Nancy Udell
Santa Fe, NM
Hank Murrow on mon 12 feb 07
Dear Nancy;
What a wonderfully clear statement of the problem....... and perhaps
the 'leverage' of Clayart will provide some badly needed resolution for
potters around the country.
Brava!
Hank in Eugene
www.murrow.biz/hank
On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Nancy Udell wrote:
> Wow, Jon, talk about killing your parents and then throwing yourself
> on the mercy of the court becuase you are an orphan. As they say,
> that's hutzpa....... Snip........
> Earth to Jon: the shelves are IN THE SHAPE OF AN ELECTRIC KILN AND
> ARE BEING MARKETED FOR USE IN AN ELECTRIC KILN. There is even a
> picture of them in an electric kiln on the website. What planet are
> you living on if using them in an electric kiln then falls into the
> category of a "situation that could possibly come up." I mean really.
>
> I hope that these posts will be helpful to others without the
> requisite common sense to decipher the marketing materials for these
> shelves. The bottom line for me is that I have to go back to the
> thorleys and hope that Laguna has sorted out that problem.
>
> The problem with corporate giants is not that they are inherently
> bad, and I do think that Laguna is a good company in many ways --
> particularly the clay, Jon, which is a joy. The problem is that
> consumer options and leverage shrink as industries consolidate.
>
> Clay Art is a wonderful resource and I thank once again those of you
> who make it possible and te many who so generously contribute.
Jon Pacini on mon 12 feb 07
Greetings All---Hi Nancy --- You have made some very good points, as did
Maurice. And I'd have to agree with you that Customer Service needs a good
looking at and possibly the Shipping Dept at Axner's as well. As I
understand it, the integration of the two companies is still ongoing and
Howard is grappling with it as best he can. Give him a call, I'm sure he'd
like to hear from you in that regard.
Now, on to the shelves---
In spite of the fact that these shelves have been marketed to electric kiln
users by a number of suppliers besides Axner's, it still remains a 'dubious
at best' endeavor to me. Even though the manufacturer seems to think they
are perfectly fine for electric firing. When the information regarding them
was put on the Axner web site, I'd say it was done so with the manufacturers
recommendations in mind.
I'm glad to hear you did indeed attempt to check around ---too bad you never
got some of the negatives about these shelves from anybody you asked. And I
don't mean that in a trite way. I might try asking more specific questions
next time ---or ask somebody different. Clayart is a great forum and a lot
of this wouldn't come out without it.
We can go round and round on this, but what I've been trying to get across,
what you and everybody else out there needs to be aware of, is that using
Silicon Carbide shelves in an electric kiln is not the best plan of action.
Never has been. It does not mean you can't use them, but you need to be
aware of the negatives, which you have found out about the hard way and
after the fact.
Besides talking to my old potter buddies, I also talked to Mike of the tech
staff at Skutt Kilns, the manufacturer of your kiln--- he was not whole
heartedly behind the use of these Silicon Carbide shelves either. Curiously
enough the term that came up in our conversation more than once-- initiated
by him, not me---was "common sense". So I guess some common sense is indeed
called for. I'd certainly like to bottle and sell some 'common sense', but
I'd probably get hassled over the instructions.
The #1 concern Mike had was electric shock. #2 was failure of the element
should the shelf come into contact with it. #3 was shorting out the entire
kiln should the elements get cross grounded by the failed shelf. He said he
hadn't really tested for failure of the shelves from uneven or rapid
heating, but he agreed that it could certainly come into play considering
the thermal expansion rates that Silicon Carbide shelves have. He also
mentioned that any unevenness in the posting of the shelves could stress
them and crack them because of there inherent brittleness. And if one of the
shelves failed because of the latter two reasons, the chances were good that
one of the first three concerns were likely to occur.
We also talked about all the pluses--- weight ,cost and flatness. All good
qualities in these shelves.
I have tried to keep this an informative discussion, correct some
inaccuracies---and lay out were I'm coming from. But you can certainly
disregard this info along with my earlier potterly advise ---that's your
call.
Best regards
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Nancy Udell on mon 12 feb 07
Hi Jon, Thanks for the info. Given these facts, you (Laguna/Axner)
should probably stop marketing the shelved to electric kiln users,
no? Common sense?
Nancy Udell
Santa Fe, NM
On Feb 12, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Jon Pacini wrote:
> Greetings All---Hi Nancy --- You have made some very good points,
> as did Maurice. And I'd have to agree with you that Customer
> Service needs a good looking at and possibly the Shipping Dept at
> Axner's as well. As I understand it, the integration of the two
> companies is still ongoing and Howard is grappling with it as best
> he can. Give him a call, I'm sure he'd like to hear from you in
> that regard.
>
> Now, on to the shelves---
>
> In spite of the fact that these shelves have been marketed to
> electric kiln users by a number of suppliers besides Axner's, it
> still remains a 'dubious at best' endeavor to me. Even though the
> manufacturer seems to think they are perfectly fine for electric
> firing. When the information regarding them was put on the Axner
> web site, I'd say it was done so with the manufacturers
> recommendations in mind.
>
> I'm glad to hear you did indeed attempt to check around ---too bad
> you never got some of the negatives about these shelves from
> anybody you asked. And I don't mean that in a trite way. I might
> try asking more specific questions next time ---or ask somebody
> different. Clayart is a great forum and a lot of this wouldn't come
> out without it.
>
> We can go round and round on this, but what I've been trying to get
> across, what you and everybody else out there needs to be aware of,
> is that using Silicon Carbide shelves in an electric kiln is not
> the best plan of action. Never has been. It does not mean you can't
> use them, but you need to be aware of the negatives, which you have
> found out about the hard way and after the fact.
>
> Besides talking to my old potter buddies, I also talked to Mike of
> the tech staff at Skutt Kilns, the manufacturer of your kiln--- he
> was not whole heartedly behind the use of these Silicon Carbide
> shelves either. Curiously enough the term that came up in our
> conversation more than once-- initiated by him, not me---was
> "common sense". So I guess some common sense is indeed called for.
> I'd certainly like to bottle and sell some 'common sense', but I'd
> probably get hassled over the instructions.
>
> The #1 concern Mike had was electric shock. #2 was failure of the
> element should the shelf come into contact with it. #3 was shorting
> out the entire kiln should the elements get cross grounded by the
> failed shelf. He said he hadn't really tested for failure of the
> shelves from uneven or rapid heating, but he agreed that it could
> certainly come into play considering the thermal expansion rates
> that Silicon Carbide shelves have. He also mentioned that any
> unevenness in the posting of the shelves could stress them and
> crack them because of there inherent brittleness. And if one of the
> shelves failed because of the latter two reasons, the chances were
> good that one of the first three concerns were likely to occur.
>
> We also talked about all the pluses--- weight ,cost and flatness.
> All good qualities in these shelves.
>
> I have tried to keep this an informative discussion, correct some
> inaccuracies---and lay out were I'm coming from. But you can
> certainly disregard this info along with my earlier potterly advise
> ---that's your call.
>
> Best regards
> Jon Pacini
> Clay Manager
> Laguna Clay Co
>
>
Snail Scott on tue 13 feb 07
Jon doesn't own Laguna, nor is he its
public relations department.
I am glad that Jon's job allows
him to speak on this forum to explain
Laguna's products, procedures, and
policies (especially regarding his own
department - clay). I am also glad he
is permitted to do this as a free agent
and to speak his mind, and that he is
not required to act solely as a
mouthpiece for the company.
He's told us their policy, and that he
doesn't fully agree with it. I assume
that this discussion has already occurred
within Laguna as well, and may come up
again. The current 'shelf crisis' has
got to be a huge pain in the ass (and a
financial issue) for them as well, so I
expect we may hear more on this soon,
and if we do, I expect we'll hear about
it from Jon.
Let's not treat him as though he's
personally responsible for the 'high
crimes and misdemeanors' of the shelf
department. He is a welcome contributor
here, even when his news is unwelcome.
-Snail
Gail Dapogny on wed 14 feb 07
Nancy,
You are truly a classy, high-road person. You spelled out the
problem and your efforts beautifully. Now Jon and others owe you a
heartfelt apology minus the defensive ("I might try asking more
specific questions next time ---or ask somebody different... We can
go round and round on this") explanations and definitely minus the
dreaded CS words.
Gail Dapogny in Ann Arbor
On Feb 12, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Nancy Udell wrote:
> Hi Jon, Thanks for the info. Given these facts, you (Laguna/Axner)
> should probably stop marketing the shelved to electric kiln users,
> no? Common sense?
>
> Nancy Udell
> Santa Fe, NM
> On Feb 12, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Jon Pacini wrote:
>
>> Greetings All---Hi Nancy --- You have made some very good points,
>> as did Maurice. And I'd have to agree with you that Customer
>> Service needs a good looking at and possibly the Shipping Dept at
>> Axner's as well. As I understand it, the integration of the two
>> companies is still ongoing and Howard is grappling with it as best
>> he can. Give him a call, I'm sure he'd like to hear from you in
>> that regard.
>>
>> Now, on to the shelves---
>>
>> In spite of the fact that these shelves have been marketed to
>> electric kiln users by a number of suppliers besides Axner's, it
>> still remains a 'dubious at best' endeavor to me. Even though the
>> manufacturer seems to think they are perfectly fine for electric
>> firing. When the information regarding them was put on the Axner
>> web site, I'd say it was done so with the manufacturers
>> recommendations in mind.
>>
>> I'm glad to hear you did indeed attempt to check around ---too bad
>> you never got some of the negatives about these shelves from
>> anybody you asked. And I don't mean that in a trite way. I might
>> try asking more specific questions next time ---or ask somebody
>> different. Clayart is a great forum and a lot of this wouldn't come
>> out without it.
>>
>> We can go round and round on this, but what I've been trying to get
>> across, what you and everybody else out there needs to be aware of,
>> is that using Silicon Carbide shelves in an electric kiln is not
>> the best plan of action. Never has been. It does not mean you can't
>> use them, but you need to be aware of the negatives, which you have
>> found out about the hard way and after the fact.
>>
>> Besides talking to my old potter buddies, I also talked to Mike of
>> the tech staff at Skutt Kilns, the manufacturer of your kiln--- he
>> was not whole heartedly behind the use of these Silicon Carbide
>> shelves either. Curiously enough the term that came up in our
>> conversation more than once-- initiated by him, not me---was
>> "common sense". So I guess some common sense is indeed called for.
>> I'd certainly like to bottle and sell some 'common sense', but I'd
>> probably get hassled over the instructions.
>>
>> The #1 concern Mike had was electric shock. #2 was failure of the
>> element should the shelf come into contact with it. #3 was shorting
>> out the entire kiln should the elements get cross grounded by the
>> failed shelf. He said he hadn't really tested for failure of the
>> shelves from uneven or rapid heating, but he agreed that it could
>> certainly come into play considering the thermal expansion rates
>> that Silicon Carbide shelves have. He also mentioned that any
>> unevenness in the posting of the shelves could stress them and
>> crack them because of there inherent brittleness. And if one of the
>> shelves failed because of the latter two reasons, the chances were
>> good that one of the first three concerns were likely to occur.
>>
>> We also talked about all the pluses--- weight ,cost and flatness.
>> All good qualities in these shelves.
>>
>> I have tried to keep this an informative discussion, correct some
>> inaccuracies---and lay out were I'm coming from. But you can
>> certainly disregard this info along with my earlier potterly advise
>> ---that's your call.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Jon Pacini
>> Clay Manager
>> Laguna Clay Co
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
| |
|
