Marcia Selsor on fri 9 feb 07
I use to make 18-20" platters with flat rims just as you described.
In Montana (dry!) I left them upsiade down after trimming for several
days. No problem with the rims pulling up. I think it is your drying
method.
Marcia Selsor
http://marciaselsor.com
Victoria E. Hamilton on fri 9 feb 07
Chris -
If you're set on a 2" wide flat rim, try leaving about 1/4" of vertical
right under where you start the flatten the rim. Just that small amount of
vertical wall could help keep your rim from flopping.
To help solve the folding (rising up?) of the rims as they dry, try applying
wax resist to the top and as much of the bottom of the rim as you can safely
reach with a brush. This will slow down the drying of the rim. The rim
will rise up because it's hanging out there far from the wet body of the
plate. It begins to dry, and shrink, before the rest of the plate so it has
nowhere to go but up.
Another thing you could try is cutting a hole in your plastic so that the
rim is covered with plastic but the center of the plate is exposed to the
air.
If you're going to torch the rim, do it carefully and sparingly - too much
and the rim will start to shrink and rise anyway.
Hope some of this helps.
Vicki Hamilton
Millennia Antica Pottery
Seattle, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Chris Groat
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] Need Advice on Making Plates!!
The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making plates
with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates with a 2" wide
flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up so that it is no
longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate actually began to
separate from the flat part of the plate. I think I'm getting this problem
because I have been throwing the rim almost verticle and then flattening it
out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is folding up because the clay has a memory?
What is another method for making these big flat rims?
It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay gets
soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly pull the
rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a pains-taking task.
Chris
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Gayle Bair on fri 9 feb 07
Chris,
How are you drying these plates?
Gayle Bair
Tucson AZ
www.claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Groat
The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
plates with big flat rims before. snip>
Vince Pitelka on fri 9 feb 07
Chris Groat wrote:
> The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
> plates with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates with
> a 2" wide flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up so that it
> is no longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate actually began
> to separate from the flat part of the plate. I think I'm getting this
> problem because I have been throwing the rim almost verticle and then
> flattening it out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is folding up because the
> clay has a memory? What is another method for making these big flat rims?
> It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay gets
> soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly pull the
> rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a pains-taking task.
Chris -
If you let the rim stiffen first (which it always will if left out to dry,
since the bottom is thicker and is only drying from one surface), it will
always pull upwards as it shrinks. Then, when the bottom stiffens and
shrinks, it will pull the rim back down and physically pull the clay apart
on the inside surface just below the rim, causing the clay to crack at that
point. The solution is to throw the rim as a straight flare (so it looks
like a pie plate), remove the moisture from inside and out with sponges or
metal ribs, and then use a rib to bring the flange rim down almost flat.
Never bring it down completely flat, because it will sag in the firing. And
most important, put the plates in a damp box or in big flat plastic boxes
(like those under-bed storage units), and let them get to leather hard very
slowly. Once you trim the foot on the back, leave the plate upside down on
a smooth board or bat and let it finish drying. Don't slide the plate
upside down against any surface, because it will chew up the rim. Set the
plate on a bat right-side-up, gently place another bat on top of the rim,
gently turn over the "sandwich" of two bats with a plate between, and remove
the bat that was under the plate.
Using this technique, I've made lots of 12" plates with 3" flange rims. I
like a fairly wide rim as a decorating surface, since you can see the
decoration even while you are using the plate.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Chris Groat on fri 9 feb 07
The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
plates with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates with
a 2" wide flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up so that it
is no longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate actually began
to separate from the flat part of the plate. I think I'm getting this
problem because I have been throwing the rim almost verticle and then
flattening it out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is folding up because the
clay has a memory? What is another method for making these big flat rims?
It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay gets
soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly pull the
rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a pains-taking task.
Chris
Lee Love on sat 10 feb 07
Hi Chris,
Talk to your clay person on advice for the right kind of clay
for your plates.
Can you put up some photos? How thick is the work? How thick
the rims? What is the edge like? I don't make rims vertical, but pull
them in the direction I intend them to end up at.
Have you actually fired any? Depending on your form, you
might want them to begin with a little angle up because they will
flatten in the glaze firing.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
John Rodgers on sat 10 feb 07
Chris,
When I do a plate or platter with a flat rim, I work a clay pug out
flat so I have a flat circle of clay on the bat on the wheel, but I make
a roll of clay along the edge of that circle of clay. I pull the rim up
at an angle, then I use a drummer's drum stick to flatten the rim out.
I sometimes use a heat gun if the clay gets a bit floppy along the rim.
A caution - I find that to flatten the rim with that drum stick is a
bit of a slow process to get right, because of working back and forth
with water and heat to keep the rim from flopping .
Good Luck,
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Chris Groat wrote:
> The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
> plates with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates with
> a 2" wide flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up so that it
> is no longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate actually began
> to separate from the flat part of the plate. I think I'm getting this
> problem because I have been throwing the rim almost verticle and then
> flattening it out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is folding up because the
> clay has a memory? What is another method for making these big flat rims?
> It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay gets
> soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly pull the
> rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a pains-taking task.
>
> Chris
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Lois Ruben Aronow on sat 10 feb 07
You don't say what kind of clay you are using.....
My plates have 2"+ rims; my platters often 4"+. Because I use porcelain, my
goal is to have them rise during drying, as much as maybe a 30 degree angle,
as they will sink down during firing.
You should be aware of 2 other things: support underneath the plate well
and the rim is important to keep the rim from slumping. And as a design
note, the rim shouldn't really be out completely flat for a plate - they
won't stack very well. It might be what the customer wants, but part of
your "job" as an artist is to work *with* the customer.
Chris Groat wrote:
> The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
> plates with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates
> with a 2" wide flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up
> so that it is no longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate
> actually began to separate from the flat part of the plate. I think
> I'm getting this problem because I have been throwing the rim almost
> verticle and then flattening it out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is
> folding up because the clay has a memory? What is another method for
making these big flat rims?
> It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay
> gets soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly
> pull the rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a
pains-taking task.
Chris -
If you let the rim stiffen first (which it always will if left out to dry,
since the bottom is thicker and is only drying from one surface), it will
always pull upwards as it shrinks. Then, when the bottom stiffens and
shrinks, it will pull the rim back down and physically pull the clay apart
on the inside surface just below the rim, causing the clay to crack at that
point. The solution is to throw the rim as a straight flare (so it looks
like a pie plate), remove the moisture from inside and out with sponges or
metal ribs, and then use a rib to bring the flange rim down almost flat.
Never bring it down completely flat, because it will sag in the firing. And
most important, put the plates in a damp box or in big flat plastic boxes
(like those under-bed storage units), and let them get to leather hard very
slowly. Once you trim the foot on the back, leave the plate upside down on
a smooth board or bat and let it finish drying. Don't slide the plate
upside down against any surface, because it will chew up the rim. Set the
plate on a bat right-side-up, gently place another bat on top of the rim,
gently turn over the "sandwich" of two bats with a plate between, and remove
the bat that was under the plate.
Using this technique, I've made lots of 12" plates with 3" flange rims. I
like a fairly wide rim as a decorating surface, since you can see the
decoration even while you are using the plate.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University Smithville
TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111 vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/ http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Michael Wendt on sat 10 feb 07
Chris,
Check the video clip on:
http://www.wendtpottery.com/workshop.htm
There is a section in the DVD on wide rimmed
plates. I also address drying and trimming
issues on the video.
I find that if you can make the plate completely
in 1 minute 30 seconds, floppy rim issues go
away. Improving sequencing and doing
moisture control as Vince advised really does
help overcome warping and cupping problems.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
USA
208-746-3724
http://www.wendtpottery.com
wendtpot@lewiston.com
Victoria E. Hamilton on sat 10 feb 07
Michael -
Do you have any of your restand tools available for sale? I don't find it
on your supplies page.
Thanks.
Vicki Hamilton
Millennia Antica Pottery
Seattle, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Michael Wendt
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:01 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Need Advice on Making Plates!!
Chris,
Check the video clip on:
http://www.wendtpottery.com/workshop.htm
There is a section in the DVD on wide rimmed plates. I also address drying
and trimming issues on the video.
I find that if you can make the plate completely in 1 minute 30 seconds,
floppy rim issues go away. Improving sequencing and doing moisture control
as Vince advised really does help overcome warping and cupping problems.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
USA
208-746-3724
http://www.wendtpottery.com
wendtpot@lewiston.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Chris Groat on sat 10 feb 07
Wow! Thanks for all the advice. I put the plates in a little home-made
drying booth, but they still dried too quickly. Today I will try pulling
the rim out almost into the shape I want and then flatten it a little.
I'll make sure they dry slower this time. Also, I do want the rim to be
angled up a little bit. I think it looks better that way. I don't like
perfectly flat rims, and I probably wouldn't be able to do it anyway
because it would slump during firing. Ok, off to the studio for round two.
Chris
Chris Groat on sat 10 feb 07
You know, on second thought these plates rally aren't that bad. I
originally made the lip with an angle of maybe 10 degrees. After drying,
the angle is now about 20 degrees. Maybe after firing they'll drop to 15,
but they really don't look bad at all. Also, I failed to mention one
important thing. The bottom of these plates was thrown extra thick, so
that a 1/4" deep foot ring could be carved, and the bottom glazed. I'm
sure that might've played a role, as the uneven drying of the bottom and
the lip would've caused the lip to dry sooner and rise up a bit.
Just a note: The clay I'm using is Highwater clays P5 porcelain. I've
never had any problems with it at all. That's why I was so alarmed when I
saw the two plates where the lip separated from the body. I knew it had to
be a problem with my technique. I attribute that mostly to the uneven
drying.
It's cold and dry as hell here in NC, maybe that plated a role?
Chris
timothy knick on sat 10 feb 07
What if you slump molded the plate from a slab, put the mold and slab on the wheel and used deflocculated slip (spackle consistency) in a pastry bag to trail a foot?
Tim
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Dave Finkelnburg on sat 10 feb 07
Chris,
If you are making plates to be trimmed, as you
propose, you may find it will help to wrap the rim in
very light plastic as soon as the rim is surface dry.
That way the center can dry at a similar overall rate
to the rim and you won't get as much cupping. This is
extra work, but for a few plates I have found it works
very well. As Vince and others have pointed out, if,
after trimming, you can flip the plates onto their
rims then you can let them dry that way. Winter
dryness definitely makes it more difficult, but the
big problem is you have a rim exposed to air on two
sides but a thicker foot with air only getting to one
side.
Good potting,
Dave Finkelnburg
From: Chris Groat
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
I failed to mention one
important thing. The bottom of these plates was thrown
extra thick, so
that a 1/4" deep foot ring could be carved, and the
bottom glazed.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 11 feb 07
Dear Chris Groat,=20
You have indeed isolated the cause of your problem.
The solution can be found in an article in Pottery Making Illustrated, =
"Throwing Plates". pp 15-18. Winter Edition 2001.
Better results are always achieved when clay is extruded rather than =
deformed or bent. Extrusion processes do not seem to impose "memory" on =
clay so there is far less distortion. This is not explained in any of =
the instructional books I have read nor do I recall any of my =
instructors speaking of it.
I hope you master the process of making plates with wide shallow rims.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Ron Roy on mon 12 feb 07
Hi Chris,
Lots of good advice just a couple of things.
I have done a lot of porcelain dinnerware with rims that I carve.
First of all - when you rib down a rim you are stretching clay and
stretched clay wants to shrink more - so recompressing the outer rim will
help keep it where you want it.
I also leave them thick - that helps the drying part not go so fast and is
good for support because you need to get them turned over as soon as
possible.
Because they are thick you can trim the extra clay away and get them just
right if they have moved during the drying.
RR
>Chris Groat wrote:
>> The rims of my plates are folding up. I've never really tried making
>> plates with big flat rims before. I got a request to make 10" plates with
>> a 2" wide flat rim. As the plates dry, the rim seems to fold up so that it
>> is no longer flat. In two instances, the rim of the plate actually began
>> to separate from the flat part of the plate. I think I'm getting this
>> problem because I have been throwing the rim almost verticle and then
>> flattening it out with a rib. Perhaps the rim is folding up because the
>> clay has a memory? What is another method for making these big flat rims?
>> It's hard for me to just pull the rim straight out because the clay gets
>> soft and flops over. I suppose I could use a heat gun and slowly pull the
>> rim out a little bit at the time, but that seems like a pains-taking task.
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Kathy McDonald on mon 12 feb 07
In response to Chris, Ron Roy wrote:
First of all - when you rib down a rim you are stretching
clay and
stretched clay wants to shrink more - so recompressing the
outer rim will
help keep it where you want it.
I also leave them thick - that helps the drying part not go
so fast and is
good for support because you need to get them turned over as
soon as
possible.
Because they are thick you can trim the extra clay away and
get them just
right if they have moved during the drying.
------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
Ron can you describe more about what you mean by
recompressing the rim.
I'
I've been having bit of trouble with larger porcelain
(1080 -Tuckers) platters that are warping a bit and
wonder if I'm missing this step. Thanks Kathy
--
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