John Jensen on wed 14 feb 07
I would find opinions on this subject of interest. As I think back
over the people who have taught and influenced me, it seems that most
have kept their own work separate. Only when I succeeded in
establishing a personal relationship with a teacher did I get into the
realm of seeing how that person worked and have an opportunity to have
a dialogue on that basis. Such a deeper involvement is, on the one
hand, very rich and valuable; but it can also be difficult to endure
the unequal relationship.
In my own teaching I tend to work on the level of demonstrations of
technique and advice on how the student should progress. My own work
is mostly private. I'm not at all sure that I have struck the right
balance in this area, but I am always trying to do my best for the
student.=20
John Jensen, Homewood Pottery
homewoodpottery.com
johnjensen@homewoodpottery.com
Corinna Laird on wed 14 feb 07
I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever come across
anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in teaching
pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether pottery teachers
should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods, or forms so that
their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or whether teachers
should keep some of their own unique innovations to themselves as a way of
protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take imitation too
far? Under what circumstances does a teacher's demonstration of technique
spark a blossoming of learning in the community/classroom? What can the
relationship be between what a teacher learns/does as an artist and what a
teacher offers to students?
It's the great, globby questions that interest me....Anyways, I'm hopefully
going to write an article on this topic somehow, and don't really know where
to begin my researches. If anyone knows of any helpful books, articles,
opininated people, etc., that would be fabulous.
cheers,
Corinna Laird
Keba M Hitzeman on thu 15 feb 07
My teachers have not overtly taught their style in the classroom, but have
always been willing to show how they would throw a certain form when asked.
Since I'm in the "intro" levels of throwing clay, maybe they are more
hesitant about influencing our styles with their own. They do encourage us
(at my intro level) to mimic what we see others doing in order to find what
works for us, and that mimicking includes them, as they also throw during
class (but mostly just for demos of a technique). In fact, a portion of our
grade includes our ability to try what we have seen others doing to see what
happens.
As a teacher myself, my influence and "personal style" is always there, even
if it is muted. Wouldn't the same hold true in someone demonstrating a
technique?
Keba (enjoying yet another snow day in Ohio...)
Keba M. Hitzeman
Spanish Consultant
www.keba.hitzeman.com
kmhitzeman@hitzeman.com
Need coffee?
coffee@engima22.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 2007 23:23
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: ideas about teaching
I would find opinions on this subject of interest. As I think back
over the people who have taught and influenced me, it seems that most
have kept their own work separate. Only when I succeeded in
establishing a personal relationship with a teacher did I get into the
realm of seeing how that person worked and have an opportunity to have
a dialogue on that basis. Such a deeper involvement is, on the one
hand, very rich and valuable; but it can also be difficult to endure
the unequal relationship.
In my own teaching I tend to work on the level of demonstrations of
technique and advice on how the student should progress. My own work
is mostly private. I'm not at all sure that I have struck the right
balance in this area, but I am always trying to do my best for the
student.
John Jensen, Homewood Pottery
homewoodpottery.com
johnjensen@homewoodpottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
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William & Susan Schran User on thu 15 feb 07
On 2/14/07 9:44 PM, "Corinna Laird" wrote:
> I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever come across
> anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in teaching
> pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether pottery teachers
> should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods, or forms so that
> their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or whether teachers
> should keep some of their own unique innovations to themselves as a way of
> protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take imitation too
> far? Under what circumstances does a teacher's demonstration of technique
> spark a blossoming of learning in the community/classroom? What can the
> relationship be between what a teacher learns/does as an artist and what a
> teacher offers to students?
For my beginning students, hand building classes, I do demos and show some
completed examples that I have done, which demonstrate my methods/approaches
and forms.
For 2nd semester, beginning wheel throwing, I again do demos and show
examples. I attempt to demonstrate several different approaches/techniques,
stating that none are the only right way and they have to try different
approaches to find the combination that works best for them. I do some of my
own work in class/open studios so they can see my entire process and how my
forms develop. I neither encourage, nor discourage imitation. I often find
myself adopting aspects of forms that I have an affinity for.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Randall Moody on thu 15 feb 07
I don't "teach my style" but I do teach the techniques that I use in my
work. I don't worry about imitation since even if they do try to imitate my
work it will never be the same. I find if funny that in an art form as old
as ceramics/pottery there are people who think that their work is completely
unique.
Lois Ruben Aronow on thu 15 feb 07
I think Keba brings up a really important point, and I can respond from the
student point of view.
I have had lots of teachers who were concerned to the point of obsession
about "how to do it right". This included one who expressed shock in my
holding a rib upside down. "That's not how you hold it". The truth was,
that's not how SHE held it. Still, I was told it was wrong, and I found
frustration in my work.
My beliefs are that there are basic rules of thumb (or hand) to do things:
how to center, how to pull, how to join parts, how to trim. All these
basics must be learned in order for the student to progress, find their own
style, and break the rules in a knowledgeable fashion. That means - make
your object any way you like, as long as you know well what makes it
structurally sound.
The two teachers who were most instrumental in my development as a creative,
rather than technical, artist, both said the same thing: How do you THINK
it's done? This gave me the basis for trial and error, and opened up the
scope of learning for me, while allowing me to be creative.
..Lo
***
Lois Ruben Aronow Ceramics
232 Third Street - # B202A
Brooklyn, NY 11215
p: 917..561..2854
f: 718..246.0819
www.loisaronow.com
www.craftsofthedamned.blogspot.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Keba M Hitzeman
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:02 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: ideas about teaching
My teachers have not overtly taught their style in the classroom, but have
always been willing to show how they would throw a certain form when asked.
Since I'm in the "intro" levels of throwing clay, maybe they are more
hesitant about influencing our styles with their own. They do encourage us
(at my intro level) to mimic what we see others doing in order to find what
works for us, and that mimicking includes them, as they also throw during
class (but mostly just for demos of a technique). In fact, a portion of our
grade includes our ability to try what we have seen others doing to see what
happens.
As a teacher myself, my influence and "personal style" is always there, even
if it is muted. Wouldn't the same hold true in someone demonstrating a
technique?
Keba (enjoying yet another snow day in Ohio...)
Keba M. Hitzeman
Spanish Consultant
www.keba.hitzeman.com
kmhitzeman@hitzeman.com
Need coffee?
coffee@engima22.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of John Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 2007 23:23
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: ideas about teaching
I would find opinions on this subject of interest. As I think back over the
people who have taught and influenced me, it seems that most have kept their
own work separate. Only when I succeeded in establishing a personal
relationship with a teacher did I get into the realm of seeing how that
person worked and have an opportunity to have a dialogue on that basis.
Such a deeper involvement is, on the one hand, very rich and valuable; but
it can also be difficult to endure the unequal relationship.
In my own teaching I tend to work on the level of demonstrations of
technique and advice on how the student should progress. My own work is
mostly private. I'm not at all sure that I have struck the right balance in
this area, but I am always trying to do my best for the student.
John Jensen, Homewood Pottery
homewoodpottery.com
johnjensen@homewoodpottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Jeanie Silver on thu 15 feb 07
Hi John
I think you struck the right note-about always thinking what is best for the
student....
In my own teaching I hold no information back, and don't distinguish
between techniques I have developed on my own and the common body of
information about clay. I work very hard at helping each student to move
not only at their own pace but in their own direction...everything is
oriented around the idea that each student comes in with a unique cluster of
interests,from which an individual line of inquiry develops. We work on
honing perceptions on what makes a good piece and on learning from one 'so
own work as well as learning by emulating other's work. A good teaching
culture(my opinion here) is one where the student's learn as much or more
from each other than as'recieved wisdom' from the teacher. The other
underlying idea I try to instill from the get-go is that process is more
important than product-when people get this,and most everyone does, than
failure is non-existant, since it becomes another learning tool, and when a
student is successful, they get the joy of it, without being strangled by it
and prevented from moving beyond it...I'm very lucky to be teaching where I
am because of the students who come here..
Jeanie in Pa.
Kathy McDonald on thu 15 feb 07
Corina Laird wrote:
I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever
come across
anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in
teaching
pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether
pottery teachers
should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods,
or forms so that
their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or
whether teachers
should keep some of their own unique innovations to
themselves as a way of
protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take
imitation too
far? Under what circumstances does a teacher's demonstration
of technique
spark a blossoming of learning in the community/classroom?
What can the
relationship be between what a teacher learns/does as an
artist and what a
teacher offers to students?
____________________________________________________________
_______
Corina,
I don't really know about anything written, but I've given
the issue
a lot of thought over the years.
A potter whose work I very much admire once cautioned me to
"never teach em all you know". At the time I was very
puzzled
by this remark.
He passed away 2 years ago.
He was an extremely knowledgeable man who did many demo's
and imparted
his knowledge in a very complex manner almost always using
chemical
formulae or some principle of physics. Knowledge and
information
were there for the taking, student's had to be very
dedicated and
industrious to take advantage of it. One of the students I
taught
afterward put it very succinctly, "ya.. he's good but it
seems that
he always tries to baffle us with bull$xxx , I just want
that C6
white glaze recipe."
His pots live on and some are really good, but I wish he had
shared
all of his knowledge, some of his glaze recipes, and the
wonderful
technique he had for making perfectly mitered corners on
slab built work.
I knew him personally and liked him and I'm sure he planned
to publish
something some day and sell it, do workshops for profit ,
etc.
That didn't happen, his life was taken too soon.
When his name comes up with some of the newer students he
did leave a
trademark of sorts, .."oh yah that guy who made all the
square stuff."
My philosophy is to share everything I know, give those who
ask me any
and/or all information I possibly can and hope that they can
take it and
run with it. I experiment voraciously and I want to be able
to share
the "process", not just put the "result" on a pedestal in
some gallery.
I don't like to see blatant rip off's of my work ,...no one
does; but for me
making clay is about the process , the feeling , and to
inspire others to
love clay as much as I do and derive enjoyment at whatever
level they can.
I know this sounds rather Mary Poppin'ish (I've been
described that way),
but I grew up in the 60's when the philosophy was "don't
Bogart that joint
my friend..... pass it over to me". Knowledge is to be
shared.
Nuff said...
Kathy
--
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marci Boskie's Mama =^..^= on thu 15 feb 07
>From: Corinna Laird wrote
>Subject: ideas about teaching
>I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever come across
>anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in teaching
>pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether pottery teachers
>should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods, or forms so that
>their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or whether teachers
>should keep some of their own unique innovations to themselves as a way of
>protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take imitation too
>far?
OK , hand me the can opener and get ready for a plate of worms :O)
.. It seems to me that the teacher , having developed their concept(
method, forms) is fluid with it and that ease will always be recognized
. Copies of things are invariably stunted and stiff, lacking inspiration .
We go through that all the time with china painters. Since there is no
real formal education process for china painting but rather someone
who learned it from someone who learned it from someone , there tends to
still be an emphasis with many teachers on using " studies" to work
from ( pictures of other painters' work ) and as a
result, many promising china painters are afraid to leap out on their
own , try their own ideas . Luckily , things are changing...
With the advent of the internet ( and as a result, more open
communication between artists) , people stuck with bad teachers can see
that its the teacher ... so the copyist attitude is slowly changing
and more and more china painters are doing original work and
even getting their toes wet in the pool of " make you own forms"...
That was a long-winded way of saying that the copies are NEVER as
good as the original piece.
But the responsibility is on the shoulders of the students. They are
the only ones who can take what theyve learned and take it a step
or two ( or a million ) further. Every artist out
there has been inspired by someone or some thing... Another artist
, nature , whatever... Its what you do with that inspiration that sets
you apart as a creative person..
Its actually kinda sad when all a person can do is copy. It is
so limiting...
As for the original question : should a teacher show all they know to
a student or should they hold back on things? My feeling is... a teacher
SHOULD indeed share all... Copies are to be expected initially while
students are learning the process but if the students continue
to only make carbon copies of the work , then :
1. it is sad that the students are limiting themselves so badly ( or have
no imagination )
2. the copies will always look like copies.. They will never have the
fluidity or spontaneity of inspiration ...
3. the teacher's creative force will always have them one step ahead of
the game , coming out with new forms and new ideas anyway
Having said that, teachers should NOT however be expected to GIVE IT
AWAY FOR FREE... I know that the pottery world is very sharing..
.....exchanging glaze recipes and stuff like that .. and I ve
also been following the Ron-John Cone 6 book thread .
My thoughts on that: ( Not just referring to the R-J book but teachers
in general )
1. They worked long and hard testing, retesting, re-re-testing the
formulas in the book .. If you want to save yourself the
years they spent doing all of that , BUY THE BOOK ... If you dont want
to buy the book, then do the legwork yourself.. Dont gripe because
somebody did years of research and work on something and they
wont give it to you for free...
2. That goes for ANY teacher: If you want to learn what
they know and they are willing to take the time to share it with you,
they should be compensated for their time. Dont gripe because the workshop
on wood firing, raku, overglaze, glaze calc, whatever is $ X dollars ....
If you want to learn it, either spend your own time on the trial and
error struggle to figure it out on your own or lay down the bucks to have
somebody show you how.
3. Say a little prayer every night for people like Vince who spend alot
of their day making lists like Clayart possible where you can get
answers for free.........( I do the same thing for overglaze people on
PPIO and I KNOW how much of my life ( that I could spend painting or
doing clay ) is spent instead at the computer so other people can learn
.... so bless you Vince for making Clayart possible.
OK.. off my soapbox :O)
Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =^..^=
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com
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Vince Pitelka on thu 15 feb 07
Corinna Laird wrote -
>I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever come across
> anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in teaching
> pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether pottery teachers
> should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods, or forms so
> that
> their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or whether teachers
> should keep some of their own unique innovations to themselves as a way of
> protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take imitation too
> far?
Corrina Corrina, where you been so long?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm an old Bob Wills fan.
There is no such resource I know of, and I cannot imagine anyone coming up
with a specific or quantitative limit for such things. I guess the answer
must come from within for each teacher, and is dependent on how much
commitment goes into being an autonomous artist versus being a sharing and
nurturing teacher. If most of an artist's income comes from artwork, with a
minimal amount coming from teaching, and if that person's artwork is based
on original techniques, then I could understand safeguarding some of those
techniques. If the techniques are established ones used by many other
ceramic artists, then they should be freely shared.
I am a compulsive teacher, and I share everything. I have no secrets. I am
not saying that others should do that, but that's the way I approach it. I
am not at all worried about anyone immitating my work. Few people are crazy
enough to attempt the stuff I do. I teach it freely, and if someone comes
close to what I do, I see it as quite an honor.
A student takes immitation too far the minute they try to sell a piece that
really looks like your work. That is completely beyond the bounds of
ethical behavior for an artist/craftsperson. In the arts, copying is
flattery only as long as it is used as a learning process. As I have said
many times before, quoting jazzman Clark Terry, "Immitate, assimilate,
innovate." Copy the work you love as a learning exercise, absorb what you
love about it, and then synthize something original.
You wrote:
> Under what circumstances does a teacher's demonstration of technique
> spark a blossoming of learning in the community/classroom? What can the
> relationship be between what a teacher learns/does as an artist and what a
> teacher offers to students?
Well, now, that's the 64-million-dollar question, isn't it. I would say
that it happens most often when it IS related to the teacher's own work, and
when the teacher can do the demonstration with solid expertise and visible
enthusiasm. As I see it, for any committed teacher, there would have to be
a very compelling reason to hold back anything in the way of technique or
information. For the best teachers, what they learn or do as artists
inevitably becomes part of what they offer to their students.
Hope this helps -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 16 feb 07
Just a couple of points. I think there are two issues to deal with here. =
One is about Processes, Techniques and skills. The other is about =
creativity.
The parameters of both should be laid down in the "Teaching Program" =
which gives detailed statements about aims, objectives and assessment. =
Learning how to do these things is part of the process of professional =
development. Ability to succeed is tested by a process of introspection, =
analysis and evaluation.
Being a teacher is a universal function of the human condition, part of =
our Natural History. If we are to do it at all, we should do it to the =
best our ability and try continuously to expand our resources, =
intellectual and physical.
Enjoy the weekend.
Best regards,
Ivor
Joyce Lee on fri 16 feb 07
At 08:23 PM 2/14/2007, John J. wrote:
>I would find opinions on this subject of interest. As I think back
>over the people who have taught and influenced me, it seems that most
>have kept their own work separate. Only when I succeeded in
>establishing a personal relationship with a teacher did I get into the
>realm of seeing how that person worked and have an opportunity to have
>a dialogue on that basis."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Years ago I had a mentor who let me copy glaze recipes from his treasured
glaze notebook which was usually locked away in his desk. I
eagerly started testing since his own, personal work was enhanced by his
gorgeous glazes.
It didn't take many tests to discover that something was missing, or too much
was present, in the ingredients for each glaze....... the results
indicated that
far more was going on than a simple slip of the pen. I love puzzles.... and
breaking codes, if I have the time......... after a few missteps, I
stumbled onto
his simple code .... obviously meant to render his notebook useless
to those who might
attempt to use his glazes.
The next week I brought several of my finished pots to class ... pots that were
glazed in his loveliest colors! We never discussed the Code nor how
I managed to
copy his work. He had even coded the firing suggestions for each glaze!
Same code. Simple. He did say, "hmmmmm." And I swear once he even
mumbled, "Good Job." At least that's what I thought I heard....... or was that
whispered in one of my many, many dreams about pottery............
Joyce
In the Mojave Desert of California USA where it's warm and lovely...
perfect weather
for firing!!
Sylvia Rios on sat 17 feb 07
Having been subject to some really good and really not so good teaching has left me to ask questions about teaching on a daily basis.
To me, teaching is about learning defined as a change of behaviour. In claywork that means learning new techniques in service to concepts. In pottery those concepts may relate to 'form and function', aesthetics, materials... or anyone of a number of directions.
When I am teaching, I think of myself as a coach and the student as the star. My identity as an artist is only important if it matters to the student. In that case they'll probably look me up or ask. I share my work sparingly in the context of the students' process in resolving their work.
No 2 hands are alike. The same techniques used by 2 individuals will still yield work that is unique. I share whatever I have to offer. Some students 'collect' information and techniques that they don't use but it does inform their work. Others try out the ideas in their own work. While I encourage people to try whatever they want, I hardly ever see shameless plagerism. It seems to go against the grain of the artist in everyone.
Corinna Laird wrote:
I am curious if anyone has any opinions about or has ever come across
anything written about the boundaries of creative sharing in teaching
pottery. I'm interested in any disscussion of whether pottery teachers
should freely demonstrate their original concepts, methods, or forms so that
their students can learn by trying and imitating them, or whether teachers
should keep some of their own unique innovations to themselves as a way of
protecting a "trademark" of sorts. When does a student take imitation too
far? Under what circumstances does a teacher's demonstration of technique
spark a blossoming of learning in the community/classroom? What can the
relationship be between what a teacher learns/does as an artist and what a
teacher offers to students?
It's the great, globby questions that interest me....Anyways, I'm hopefully
going to write an article on this topic somehow, and don't really know where
to begin my researches. If anyone knows of any helpful books, articles,
opininated people, etc., that would be fabulous.
cheers,
Corinna Laird
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Stephanie Wright on mon 19 feb 07
Hi John,
You post some very good questions.
I have had 2 pottery teachers in my love affair with clay. One was
actually a student of the other, so they are both familiar with each
other's work, but they teach in different ways. I have benefitted greatly
from both of them.
Renzo (#1) is fairly laid back in his teaching style. He places very few
restrictions on what you do on the wheel, once you get centering down. His
big thing seems to be the less tools, the better. When throwing, you make
your hands be the main tool. There is alot of trial and error in his
class, and he sort of hangs back, watches, and will help you if you ask.
Failure can be a form of success if you learn from it, even if you don't
end up with a finished pot. His work reflects his teaching style - very
fluid and even his pots can be rather sculptural. You get more out of the
class if you learn to speak up and ask questions. If you are timid, you
need to get over it.
Deb (#2) is more technical. The first night I walked into her class, she
said to us that we were not to make any other wheel forms until we could
make a proper cylinder. She then proceeded to physically guide the hands
of each of us individually, to show us, while telling the whole class what
she was doing. This was more than a usual demo, and helped greatly,
because we could feel as well as see what was going on. It fixed mistakes
I was not aware I was making that were sabotaging some of my pots. Deb
also taught us the little tricks. She wanted us to feel successful as much
as possible - successful in that we had a finished piece. Her work also
reflects her teaching style - very clean, crisp, and precise, with alot of
geometric designs in her decoration.
Now that I am back in Renzo's class, we have many different levels of
student - from beginning to advanced. The first couple of sessions, he
seperated us, and taught the beginners about coils, slabs, and pinch pots.
He then did a wheel demo, and let the newbies have at it. I find that the
mixture of students this time around made for a more "sharing" dynamic.
The more advanced students are helping the newbies, explaining why things
do or don't seem to work, what seems to help each of us individually,
doing little demos of their own, etc. Renzo has commented to me that this
is actually the dynamic he likes best, because although he is there to
guide us, we sometimes learn better from each other. He has told us that
there is no "right way" once you can achieve the basic technical steps,
only the right way that works for us. I agree with this.
I have learned alot from both teachers. I admire them both. Neither have
any problem showing students their finished work. There is no hiding glaze
recipes or hoarding of technique. They both understand that full
disclosure of knowledge is empowering, and will help us pick and choose
what works to find our own style. Plus, both of them are wise enough to
know that they learn from their students as well. It has been a very
rewarding experience for me as a student all the way around. And if I ever
start teaching others, I will incorporate both methods of instruction.
Take care,
Stephanie
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