Pat Colyar on sat 3 mar 07
> Pat: but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be
> able
> to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
>
> Lee: Why is digging clay different? Aren't you actually asking
> "who is the 'real' potter?"
No, I'm interested, tonight, in what I said above: does anyone else but
me think that a potter should fire their own work, or at the bare
minimum, know how to? When you look at a picture of a pot in CM or a
book, do you assume that the artist fired the piece?
Pat (I Am Curious, Yellow) Colyar, in quiet Gold Bar, WA
Linda White on sat 3 mar 07
It's common throughout history--the guy who is good at pr and
business gets the credit. There ain't no "fair" god to balance the
scales. Walt Disney got all the credit for his animation artists, Bob
Dylan rode on the backs of other musicians: probably no one gets what
they "deserve", which may be a blessing. We all just do what we can.
Acknowledgement and recognition are almost beside the point. If you
compare Darwin's Theory of Evolution with how artistic recognition
develops, you begin to see that being in the right place at the right
time is as important as "having the right stuff". It is hard to
acknowledge that luck is as important as talent in terms of one's
noteriety. Sanford Meisner (acting teacher) said that "Ninety-nine
percent of talent is the ability to work hard." And, I think, the
ability to continue--even when you're not sure anyone is noticing.
Pat Colyar on sat 3 mar 07
(to be sung to the tune of "I Write the Songs")
I've been thinking about this can of worms ever since I saw work in a
well-known ceramics mag that I had fired, but was "made" by another
artist, and several pieces in a Lark book that I am pretty sure were not
fired by the person that threw and decorated them.
As a ceramics tech and instructor who fires a lot of others' work, I
would like to occasionally get some recognition for the part my cone 10
firing expertise plays in the excellence of the work. Perhaps in
addition to the customary "Photo by Joe Blow", another line saying
"Firing by Susie Whosis" would be appropriate.
Or how about this one: I throw the pieces, they're altered by the
Artist, then sent to a large group woodfiring where the flashing and ash
effects, orchestrated by the people loading and firing the kiln,
complete the piece. So tell me, who is the artist here?
I'm not interested much in the discussion wandering off into the
"well, who digs their own clay" or "who's a "real" potter discussion,
but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be able
to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
Pat (proud to be a tech) Colyar, in damp Gold Bar, WA
John Fulwood on sat 3 mar 07
Hi Pat,
I have 33 students and some of them do shows and sell their work. I dont worry that I do not get credit for part of the quality of the pots. I get paid. Do you?
John Fulwood
-----Original Message-----
>From: Pat Colyar
>Sent: Mar 3, 2007 1:40 PM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: I fire the kilns, I fire the kilns...(was, Picasso, etc.)
>
>(to be sung to the tune of "I Write the Songs")
>
> I've been thinking about this can of worms ever since I saw work in a
>well-known ceramics mag that I had fired, but was "made" by another
>artist, and several pieces in a Lark book that I am pretty sure were not
>fired by the person that threw and decorated them.
> As a ceramics tech and instructor who fires a lot of others' work, I
>would like to occasionally get some recognition for the part my cone 10
>firing expertise plays in the excellence of the work. Perhaps in
>addition to the customary "Photo by Joe Blow", another line saying
>"Firing by Susie Whosis" would be appropriate.
> Or how about this one: I throw the pieces, they're altered by the
>Artist, then sent to a large group woodfiring where the flashing and ash
>effects, orchestrated by the people loading and firing the kiln,
>complete the piece. So tell me, who is the artist here?
> I'm not interested much in the discussion wandering off into the
>"well, who digs their own clay" or "who's a "real" potter discussion,
>but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be able
>to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
>
> Pat (proud to be a tech) Colyar, in damp Gold Bar, WA
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
John Fulwood
Kissimmee River Pottery
One 8th St. #11
Frenchtown, NJ. 08825
www.kissimmeeriverpottery.com
Sandra Kelements on sat 3 mar 07
I was in a class and the instructor didn't know how to fire. So much for
her MFA.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Colyar"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:40 PM
Subject: I fire the kilns, I fire the kilns...(was, Picasso, etc.)
> (to be sung to the tune of "I Write the Songs")
>
> I've been thinking about this can of worms ever since I saw work in a
> well-known ceramics mag that I had fired, but was "made" by another
> artist, and several pieces in a Lark book that I am pretty sure were not
> fired by the person that threw and decorated them.
> As a ceramics tech and instructor who fires a lot of others' work, I
> would like to occasionally get some recognition for the part my cone 10
> firing expertise plays in the excellence of the work. Perhaps in
> addition to the customary "Photo by Joe Blow", another line saying
> "Firing by Susie Whosis" would be appropriate.
> Or how about this one: I throw the pieces, they're altered by the
> Artist, then sent to a large group woodfiring where the flashing and ash
> effects, orchestrated by the people loading and firing the kiln,
> complete the piece. So tell me, who is the artist here?
> I'm not interested much in the discussion wandering off into the
> "well, who digs their own clay" or "who's a "real" potter discussion,
> but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be able
> to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
>
> Pat (proud to be a tech) Colyar, in damp Gold Bar, WA
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Pat Colyar on sat 3 mar 07
Hi, John, et al...
Yes, I get paid, but $14 per hour for firing is not quite the same
as national recognition....and my students selling their pots isn't
quite the same as someone winning a national cup show.
Pat Colyar, in the Skykomish Valley, WA, where I can actually smell
the sap rising in the cottonwoods, after a very long, hard Winter
dwichman@frontiernet.net on sun 4 mar 07
Vicki says -
"Yayyyyyyy, Pat!
As one of a team of 3 who fire the reduction kiln at our community studio, I
am in complete agreement around "who are the artists." Also,
acknowledgement for beautiful work that comes from one of our firings
because our team is knowledgeable, attentive and critical is a really lovely
and deserved experience.
Thank you."
I also think some acknowledgement may be appropriate. I have always =20
disliked glazing, but loved to make pots. My better half (a drywall =20
contracter who is used to spraying spackle on ceilings) is now honing =20
his skills spray glazing my pots for me. I think when it gets to the =20
point that he is doing all the glazing and I am doing the building and =20
throwing, that it will need to be billed as a joint venture. Some =20
people believe the pot's form should stand alone and some people are =20
all about the color and glaze. I believe the best and most exciting =20
are when all skills come together and have a synergistic role in the =20
pot's signature.
Debi Wichman
Cookeville, TN
http://www.elementterra.com
Lee Love on sun 4 mar 07
On 3/4/07, Pat Colyar wrote:
> > Pat: but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be
> > able
> > to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
> >
> > Lee: Why is digging clay different? Aren't you actually asking
> > "who is the 'real' potter?"
>
> No, I'm interested, tonight, in what I said above: does anyone else but
> me think that a potter should fire their own work, or at the bare
> minimum, know how to? When you look at a picture of a pot in CM or a
> book, do you assume that the artist fired the piece?
I replied to this. Once more:
Like I said, master potters in Japan have technicians fire
their kilns. Wood cutters cut their wood. Clay miners mine the
clay.
It is like Hokusai and Hiroshige having wood block cutter cutting
their boards and master printers making the print.
Primarily, the success depends upon the outcome. As long as
the artist is candid about how the work came about.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
William & Susan Schran User on sun 4 mar 07
On 3/3/07 11:35 PM, "dwichman@frontiernet.net"
wrote:
> I think when it gets to the
> point that he is doing all the glazing and I am doing the building and
> throwing, that it will need to be billed as a joint venture.
You'll enjoy looking into the work of Gertrude & Otto Natzler.
Just enter their names into a search.
She threw all the pots, he did all the glazing & firing.
I was very lucky to visit a collector years ago.
He had a bottle form by them.
Let me hold it - like holding a feather - almost brought tears.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Forest Butera on sun 4 mar 07
I have never assumed the artist fired the work I see in magazines.
Sometimes the caption or story will say they did, especially if it is an
unusual process. The reason I never assume it, and never really thought
about it is that up until very recently I had no choice but to allow
others to do my firing for me, as I am sure thousands of other potters do
who are students or members of studios with no kiln of their own. I have
figured potters who own and fire their own kilns are a minority. If a
firer-of-kilns feels strongly about being recognized for that talent then
he or she should have some kind of written agreement with the fire-ees on
always getting credit for that part of the work.
Hank Murrow on sun 4 mar 07
On Mar 3, 2007, at 8:35 PM, dwichman@frontiernet.net wrote:
>
> I also think some acknowledgement may be appropriate. I have always
> disliked glazing, but loved to make pots. My better half (a drywall
> contracter who is used to spraying spackle on ceilings) is now honing
> his skills spray glazing my pots for me. I think when it gets to the
> point that he is doing all the glazing and I am doing the building and
> throwing, that it will need to be billed as a joint venture. Some
> people believe the pot's form should stand alone and some people are
> all about the color and glaze. I believe the best and most exciting
> are when all skills come together and have a synergistic role in the
> pot's signature.
>
> Debi Wichman
> Cookeville, TN
> http://www.elementterra.com
It may be germane to mention Suzy Atkins, who has worked with her
husband Nigel in France for 40 years to build the beautiful Poterie du
Don. Nigel brings a flatbed truck with seven tons of clay from La Borne
down to their pottery in the Masssif Central, where Suzy and an
apprentice make lovely slipped pottery destined for the salt fire. Once
the pots are slipped, Nigel does the rest.......firing, cleaning up,
and selling the work. One cannot go anywhere within a 70 mile radius
without seeing his beautiful color posters advertising their work and
their studio. The ware is wildly popular.
Mud and water gal, married to a air and fire guy!
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Hank Murrow on sun 4 mar 07
On Mar 3, 2007, at 8:35 PM, Pat Colyar wrote:
>
> No, I'm interested, tonight, in what I said above: does anyone else but
> me think that a potter should fire their own work, or at the bare
> minimum, know how to?
Dear Pat;
I fired my first gas kiln six weeks into my first term in Beginning
Ceramics in 1958. I cannot imagine that my interest in clay would have
sustained itself through the last 49 years without the fire and the
kilns......... an intimate connection. After the ten year project of
deigning then manufacturing my Doorless Fiberkiln, I almost took a
teaching job at the U of Oregon, but decided that I wanted to see if I
'really could be a potter'. So I made thousands of pots, re-awakened my
interest in metaphor, and loved the wet clay again. In the last 25
years I surely have become a real potter.
> When you look at a picture of a pot in CM or a
> book, do you assume that the artist fired the piece?
Never. I have seen how it works these days. When I went to France in
1986, I delved in the stacks of the Musee des Artes Decoratifs in the
Louvre. They had 27 3" thick binders with a page or two for each potter
working in France. I scanned those pages looking mostly for work that
showed a love of the fire, and then copied their address. At the end of
looking, I had about 30 names culled from a thousand or so, and set
about visiting them along my travel path. Some are still friends, who I
hope to see this Summer when I return for a month.
I love my kiln........ and it loves me back
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Earl Brunner on sun 4 mar 07
In college, we used vintage Alpine updraft kilns.Where things were placed in those fire breathing mosters had a HUGE impact on how they came out. Very early on I knew that I didn't want ANYTHING of mine fired if I wasn't there to place it in the kiln, and in many cases actually do the firing.
"dwichman@frontiernet.net" wrote: Vicki says -
"Yayyyyyyy, Pat!
As one of a team of 3 who fire the reduction kiln at our community studio, I
am in complete agreement around "who are the artists." Also,
acknowledgement for beautiful work that comes from one of our firings
because our team is knowledgeable, attentive and critical is a really lovely
and deserved experience.
Thank you."
Marta Matray on sun 4 mar 07
Forest Butera wrote:
>... If a
>firer-of-kilns feels strongly about being recognized for that talent then
>he or she should have some kind of written agreement with the fire-ees on
>always getting credit for that part of the work.
yes, or...
maybe the firer-of-kilns who miss the recognition,
maybe they should make their own pots, fire them,
make pictures, send them in for the magazines for
publishing. why not?
who forbids them to make their own masterpieces?
marta
Lee Love on sun 4 mar 07
On 3/4/07, Pat Colyar wrote:
> Or how about this one: I throw the pieces, they're altered by the
> Artist, then sent to a large group woodfiring where the flashing and ash
> effects, orchestrated by the people loading and firing the kiln,
> complete the piece. So tell me, who is the artist here?
The kiln? I think we are so caught up in "self expression"
that we don't always realize that more than an individual is
responsible for truly great work.
> I'm not interested much in the discussion wandering off into the
> "well, who digs their own clay" or "who's a "real" potter discussion,
> but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be able
> to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
Why is digging clay different? Aren't you actually asking
"who is the 'real' potter?"
This sunday morning on the 9am art show we always, there is
a program on Hiroshige's 53 Stations of the Hokkaido. They are
talking about the restoration and re-cutting of the original wooden
boards used to make the prints.
Traditionally, the "artist" only made the design for the
work. A woodblock cutter made the printing blocks from the artists
design and a different craftsman printed the design. Even though
the artist did not cut the block and did not print the work, it is
attributed to the artist.
It is traditionally the same way with pottery. Sometimes
a a craftsman even throws the work for the master potters.
Typically, craftsmen glaze the work, load it into the kiln and firer
it, with the master potter just checking in to see how the progress
goes.
Really, a "big boat" is good for creativity!
Yesterday, we went to a show at Tochigi City. Our woodblock
print teacher was a potter and sculptor at the time, but when he met
Kenji Suzuki, he decided to learn woodblock printing too.
I took some photos (even though I wasn't supposed to. Will
use them in a presentation) of prints of his he made in Mashiko of the
Mashiko Shokunin/craftsmen and also of some sculptures he made when he
was in Mashiko:
http://togei.blogspot.com/
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Vince Pitelka on sun 4 mar 07
Pat Colyar wrote:
> No, I'm interested, tonight, in what I said above: does anyone else but
> me think that a potter should fire their own work, or at the bare
> minimum, know how to? When you look at a picture of a pot in CM or a
> book, do you assume that the artist fired the piece?
Pat -
I think it is absolutely essential that every artist know the whole process
very thoroughly, and that they determine the way the process is conducted in
order to control the outcome. So, there's nothing at all wrong with a
potter having someone else fire their work, as long as they know the firing
process thoroughly, and know that the firing is going to be conducted
according to their needs. That's where the problem arises. In a situation
where students are not allowed to fire their own work, they are not learning
and controlling the whole process, and the outcome is not completely their
own. There are certainly situations where this is of little consequence,
such as in my intro classes, where the students do not fire their own work.
We conduct those firings in a very consistent fashion, with little
variation, and it is due to the skills of the people firing the kilns that
the results are so consistent. The beginning students can concentrate on
all the other things in the process without worrying about how the firing is
conducted. The results are still the work of the students, with no need at
all to give partial credit to the person who fired the kiln, other than
appreciation of a job well done.
At the intermediate level, I have seen some of my students trying to push
this situation, trying to get their work into the kilns fired by other
students who really know the process. They don't get away with that for
long. By the time they get to the advanced level, they have to be firing
all of their own work, not just in one firing process, but experimenting in
different processes - at least oxidation, reduction, salt, and soda.
There's no need for artists to make their own tools, brushes, pottery wheel,
kiln, etc., but they must become expert in the use of the associated tools
and equipment, and must be directly responsible for determining how the
tools and equipment are used to create a certain outcome. The finest art
and craftsmanship is generally assumed to have been produced by the artist
or craftsperson's own hands, but in the traditional atelier the work was
often partially or completely executed by others, but always closely
controlled with exacting standards by the artist.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vince Pitelka on sun 4 mar 07
Forest Butera wrote:
> I have figured potters who own and fire their own kilns are a minority. If
> a
> firer-of-kilns feels strongly about being recognized for that talent then
> he or she should have some kind of written agreement with the fire-ees on
> always getting credit for that part of the work.
As I see it, someone who doesn't fire their work and has no control over the
firing process should be showing their work only as student work, because
they have not mastered the process. They should show it proudly as student
work, proud of the parts of the process that they have mastered, but every
potter needs to become expert in firing and needs to control that process as
well to be able to completely claim the outcome as their own work.
Almost all recognized potters fire their own work, or if they sometimes make
arrangements for someone else to fire it, they do so because of thorough
familiarity with the person who is doing the firing and the expected
results.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Gail Dapogny on sun 4 mar 07
I emphatically second what Vince says below. His plan for his
students seems admirable and sound. I can't imagine being involved
in the whole thing of making pots without knowing about the firing,
and participating in it as much as possible (in my case, all the
time). I happen to be in a situation where we also make our own clay
bodies, but to me that isn't the same thing as the firing; it doesn't
lend itself with the same intimacy to the whole process of making and
firing pots. (On many a day, I could do without the clay-making!)
You have to fire and fire and win some and lose some in order to
learn, and there's a lifetime of pure satisfaction in doing so, along
with some headaches, of course. Sometimes it's exhausting and
drudgery, but so many other times it's magical. And this is one of
the areas where Clayart (which I have been part of for 10 years) is
so valuable.
To be able to reach out to this list is just pure gold. Every aspect
is covered at one time or another. And on top of that, e-mail brings
us together as friends and enables us to as good as talk to one another.
As a member of a thriving guild, I participate in a major way in
firing a large gas kiln. But I also have the opportunity there to
fire a smaller gas kiln alone. Looking back at the questions that
have come up through the years about what makes a group situation
tick, I would site these things (among others): learning to load and
fire; and also, having the chance to fire by myself. And always:
supplement your experience with Clayart!
Gail (in still snow-covered Ann Arbor)
Gail Dapogny
Ann Arbor, Michigan
gdapogny@umich.edu
www.pottersguild.net
www.claygallery.org
On Mar 4, 2007, at 1:39 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
> I think it is absolutely essential that every artist know the whole
> process
> very thoroughly, and that they determine the way the process is
> conducted in
> order to control the outcome. So, there's nothing at all wrong with a
> potter having someone else fire their work, as long as they know
> the firing
> process thoroughly, and know that the firing is going to be conducted
> according to their needs. That's where the problem arises. In a
> situation
> where students are not allowed to fire their own work, they are not
> learning
> and controlling the whole process, and the outcome is not
> completely their
> own. There are certainly situations where this is of little
> consequence,
> such as in my intro classes, where the students do not fire their
> own work.
> We conduct those firings in a very consistent fashion, with little
> variation, and it is due to the skills of the people firing the
> kilns that
> the results are so consistent. The beginning students can
> concentrate on
> all the other things in the process without worrying about how the
> firing is
> conducted. The results are still the work of the students, with no
> need at
> all to give partial credit to the person who fired the kiln, other
> than
> appreciation of a job well done.
>
> At the intermediate level, I have seen some of my students trying
> to push
> this situation, trying to get their work into the kilns fired by other
> students who really know the process. They don't get away with that
> for
> long. By the time they get to the advanced level, they have to be
> firing
> all of their own work, not just in one firing process, but
> experimenting in
> different processes - at least oxidation, reduction, salt, and soda.
>
> There's no need for artists to make their own tools, brushes,
> pottery wheel,
> kiln, etc., but they must become expert in the use of the
> associated tools
> and equipment, and must be directly responsible for determining how
> the
> tools and equipment are used to create a certain outcome. The
> finest art
> and craftsmanship is generally assumed to have been produced by the
> artist
> or craftsperson's own hands, but in the traditional atelier the
> work was
> often partially or completely executed by others, but always closely
> controlled with exacting standards by the artist.
> - Vince
>
Anne Webb on sun 4 mar 07
Pat...
I think you may be asking 2 different things.. where is credit due exactly
and what makes a potter.
(The latter has been discussed ad nauseum on the list and frankly, is
counterproductive/negative to bother wasting our time on. We all love clay
and the list is for everyone. )
I am not really sure what kind of firing you are doing for this person, but
if you feel strongly enough that it is a collaborative work, you should
insist on recognition ..or.. don't fire any more pots for that person..
I had an experience with someone here (I am purposefully omitting the name
btw). I threw the pots, that person would put a design on them, and I would
fire them here. At times I would even do the glazing. We split the revenue
from any sales which seemed to work well. I most certainly considered this
work collaborative, especially since my name was on the bottom of the pots.
A few years ago, we submitted 2 or 3 of these pots into a local juried
exhibition. The pots did well and actually won a prize. I didn't get a
chance to check out the exhibition for myself right away although my
neighbor, who went to the exhibition on a directed tour, was told "oh yeah
thats the work of , a great local potter", referring to the
collaborative pots. Apparently my pottery collaborator took the pots in,
then took sole credit. As the church lady would say, "Well isnt that
"special"!" I thought that was in rather bad taste, myself. Sure, take
credit for the decoration, I don't have a problem with that, but we both
know you can't throw a lick so why lie about it. I always made a point to
give credit where credit was due...too bad it didnt work both ways.
Who knows..
We both work independently now which is the best arrangement.
Cheers.. Anne
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jim on sun 4 mar 07
---------- Original Message -----------
From: Gail Dapogny
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:47:57 -0500
Subject: Re: I fire the kilns, I fire the kilns...(was, Picasso, etc.)
> I emphatically second what Vince says below. His plan for his
> students seems admirable and sound.
Gail, I totally agree with you and Vince. The creation of the final work is
a process and if I were to miss out on one step I would not feel the
ownership. Sorry to hear it is still snow covered there in Ann Arbor. That
is what drove me out of that area 30 years ago and down here to North
Carolina where a while back I discovered pottery making. After a 2 year
break from it I have finally gotten the studio back up and running and with
the need to find my glazes all over again the first place I turned was the
Clayart site... I am in the process of testing and retesting and
discovering all the new ideas out there. Thanks to everyone on this site
for selfishlessly sharing their knowledge and thoughts.
Jim
Stephanie Wright on sun 4 mar 07
Hi Pat,
Speaking as one who does NOT fire my own pieces...
Yes, I believe that those who fire the kilns for students or even for
established artists should get some form of recognition. Just because you
might get paid for doing it, does not mean you never need to hear you are
appreciated! Opening the kiln with my classmates is like Christmas for me
every time. I always make sure to thank my teacher for firing, regardless
of how I like my finished pots.
Yes, I also agree with you that potters should learn to fire their own
work. If they choose to let someone else handle that aspect once they have
turned professional, that is their own decision. But it should be part of
every potter and sculptor's learning experience. Personally, my instructor
has been letting me load and unload our school's gas kiln, but not fire.
He knows I really want to learn how to run the kiln, and once I have
mastered the loading part, I believe he will teach me. If not, I will
hound him until he does. :-)
Also, before I got into this medium, whenever I saw a piece of pottery, I
DID assume that it was fired by the artist himself. Never thought
otherwise until I started with my classes and seeking out many, many
artists' work. Most likely, other casual enjoyers/collectors of the art
believe the same I originally did.
If I ever submitted photos of a pot to a magazine, or had one in a show, I
would absolutely give mention if I was not the one who fired. It is not
only the courteous thing to do, but I believe ethically correct as well.
Stephanie
Donna Kat on mon 5 mar 07
On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:40:55 -0800, Pat Colyar
wrote:
>(to be sung to the tune of "I Write the Songs")
>
> I've been thinking about this can of worms ever since I saw work in a
>well-known ceramics mag that I had fired, but was "made" by another
>artist, and several pieces in a Lark book that I am pretty sure were not
>fired by the person that threw and decorated them.
> As a ceramics tech and instructor who fires a lot of others' work, I
>would like to occasionally get some recognition for the part my cone 10
>firing expertise plays in the excellence of the work. Perhaps in
>addition to the customary "Photo by Joe Blow", another line saying
>"Firing by Susie Whosis" would be appropriate.
> Or how about this one: I throw the pieces, they're altered by the
>Artist, then sent to a large group woodfiring where the flashing and ash
>effects, orchestrated by the people loading and firing the kiln,
>complete the piece. So tell me, who is the artist here?
> I'm not interested much in the discussion wandering off into the
>"well, who digs their own clay" or "who's a "real" potter discussion,
>but mostly, does anyone else but me think that a potter should be able
>to fire their own work, or at the bare minimum, know HOW to?
>
> Pat (proud to be a tech) Colyar, in damp Gold Bar, WA
This is a difficult one. First off note that I have absolutely no
objections to collaboration on a piece.
There was a potter whose work I was very fond of until I found out that he
was having his apprentice throw the pieces and he was doing the glazes and
signing his name in the clay after she had trimmed them. Had her name
been on the clay work and his on the glaze I would have no problem with
this colaboration but as his name was carved into the clay it implied that
he had done the entire piece. My opinion of him dropped considerably at
that point. While the glaze work and decoration were in itself beautiful,
it was the thrown piece itself that I truly admired. Again I have no
problem with an artist treating the clay as a 'canvas' and their work
being the glazing but if they do so then I feel very strongly that this
must be up front. I don't know it there could be a tradition of you only
put your mark in the clay if the clay work is yours and if you only do the
glazing then your mark must be in the glaze work itself but IMO there
should be truth in the process. Most of us can agree that the gathering
of materials (I'm not going to be mining gerstley now or in the future) is
not part of the craft as it stands today. Throwing (building), firing and
decoration however are in intregal part of the piece and credit must be
given where credit is due.
Donna
P.S. Someone who does not know the process from front to end can certainly
still teach the skill they have but to claim the title of potter I really
do believe that you must know the process from front to end and be able to
perform even if you have specialized and now only do one aspect of the
craft. Again, JMO
John Fulwood on mon 5 mar 07
Hi Pat,
I am sorry if my reply seemed harsh. That was not my intention. I have been building kilns and firing pots for so long that it seems like second nature to me.
I guess I approach it from a different angle. I am fortunate enough to own the studio that provides me with my students. My pots get fired next to their pots so I must be the one doing the firing. I have a 70 cu ft kiln and it would be difficult for the students to fill it for a firing they could do themselves. Most of them could not devote the time required to load and fire the kiln and I am not sure they would want to.
I do agree that a professional potter should know how to fire the pots they make. I was lucky enough to study with Elmer Taylor. He was big on kiln building and firing your own work. Since receiving my MFA, I have built over twenty kilns and I would not feel like a complete potter without this knowledge. I learn a little more with each kiln I build and I love the different personalities of those kilns.
I have one assistant in my studio who makes pots for me. She throws the forms and I trim, handle, decorate, glaze and fire them. I do not represent those pots as entirely my own. They are stamped with my stamp and the stamp of the studio. If someone asks if I make all the pots, I tell them no and show them how to differentiate between the pots I make from start to finish and the ones Marie makes for me. They are all my designs and she has worked very hard to be able to reproduce them. She does a great job and I am lucky to have her in the studio.
It took a number of years for me to be ok with someone making pots for me. It was hard to give up making pots that I love to make but it was something I needed to do to make a living as a potter in NJ.
Credit where credit is due can come in different forms and again, I apologize for the harshness of my first reply.
Keep firing,
John Fulwood
-----Original Message-----
>From: Pat Colyar
>Sent: Mar 3, 2007 10:01 PM
>To: John Fulwood
>Cc: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: I fire the kilns, I fire the kilns...(was, Picasso, etc.)
>
>Hi, John, et al...
>
> Yes, I get paid, but $14 per hour for firing is not quite the same
>as national recognition....and my students selling their pots isn't
>quite the same as someone winning a national cup show.
>
> Pat Colyar, in the Skykomish Valley, WA, where I can actually smell
>the sap rising in the cottonwoods, after a very long, hard Winter
>
John Fulwood
Kissimmee River Pottery
One 8th St. #11
Frenchtown, NJ. 08825
www.kissimmeeriverpottery.com
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