Ric Swenson on sat 3 mar 07
A big can of worms to open indeed my friend.
=20
Let the games begin.......
=20
I can see this thread giving many the opportunity to voice an opinion about=
Picasso and his ceramic work as well as the larger picture of designer as =
artist/craftsman... and is the designer who draws pots and then has someone=
else make them REALLY a ceramist?
=20
One needs an open mind to consider both. The purist can point out that a "=
potter" does the whole job...from digging the clay, forming the wares, maki=
ng his/her tools, to firing the kiln and then taking it to the fair and sel=
ling it. I believe a potter can still be a potter if she/he doesn't dig his=
/her own clay from the earth and all the rest.
=20
What is a ceramist? A sculptor that works with clay? A craftsman who toil=
s in a workshop and makes only functional wares? The definition encompasse=
s a broad spectrum of work and ways of working.
=20
I prefer to think of a ceramicist as anyone who chooses to use clay ( and m=
aybe other materials with the clay) to make objects. Whether the object is=
functional or non-functional matters little in the definition of the term =
ceramist, in my opinion.=20
=20
Picasso did work with clay, granted, the potters (probably French, not Span=
ish) did most of the grunt work and he merely watched and supervised and ma=
rveled at their skill as craftsmen and then the great painter and sculptor =
did his bit of magic and the pieces became more than pitchers or vessels, t=
hey became Picassos. Three D canvases.
=20
Rembrandt did much the same, as have many artists who had so much work to d=
o that they had "schools" of workers to start their work and they came alon=
g and finished it with their hand. I did some drawing on the Larry Rivers M=
ural in Philadelphia, ( "Philadelphia, Now and Then") but HE got to sign th=
e work and got the big paycheck. He was the designer, The Artist and I was =
just the craftsman who tried to copy his hand at drawing.
=20
Do you think that Picasso stretched his own canvases? Did he weave the can=
vas too? Did he grow the cotton? Did he cut down the tree to make the stret=
cher frames? A purist would also have him grinding his own colors I suppos=
e. Is it important that an artist is so fully involved with the process th=
at he/she has little time to actually make the artistic statement? Is the '=
Guernica' any less grand because Picasso didn't make his own paint brushes?
=20
Is our little club so small that we cannot embrace even the person who just=
sees clay as an end...not just a means?
=20
That's my two cents, for now.
=20
Enjoy!
=20
Ric Swenson
=20
Now back in warm and spring-like JingDeZhen, China,=20
where tomorrow is Lantern Festival, the official end of Spring Festival (Ch=
inese New Year 2007.)
=20
=20
=20
=20
> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:12:56 -0500> From: clayartz@SHAW.CA> Subject: Re=
: Picasso as a Ceramist....not.> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > This just =
in from the Associated Press. "Pair of Picasso paintings stolen> from Paris=
home of artist's granddaughter".> While it is disturbing to see this 20th =
c. master's works being pilfered> and I do like Picasso's work even his pai=
nting on ceramics, the AP bungled> in their reporting. Quote unquote " The =
paintings join 549 other missing> or stolen works by the prolific Spanish p=
ainter, sculptor, graphic> artist,and ceramist, considered by many the lead=
ing artist of the 20th> century." Yes, Picasso was a great artist, but a ce=
ramist...really.> Although to see the term ceramist in the common press is =
enlightening,> associating it with Picasso is ludicrious. He was an accompo=
lished painter> of pots no doubt, but he definitely did not make his vessel=
s. That he left> to the Spanish potter for whom we know little about. A cer=
amist in my> definition is that creative who makes their vessels/sculpture =
from the raw> materials to the finished glazed(or unglazed) end. If they ar=
e fortunate> enough they make their own clay body. A ceramist is also one w=
ho fires> their own work, I really do doubt that Picasso had the inclinatio=
n to fire> his work given that he did make the effort to actually manipulat=
e the clay> itself. He was primarily concerned with the surface and the vol=
umetric> planes of the vessel as a canvas. The vessel replaced his conventi=
onal> painter's canvas and I do admit that he understood what it could do f=
or> his work. We can thank him though for putting some of his creative geni=
us> into the ceramic vessel and maybe slightly giving the pot/vessel> valid=
ation in a western art world which has yet really given the clay form> the =
recognition it deserves. Oh well at least I saw the term ceramist in> the n=
ewspaper for the first time. And yes ,damn it, those Picasso pots> were som=
ething else when I saw them visa a slide given many moons ago by> one of my=
profs..> > _______________________________________________________________=
_______________> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org> > You may look =
at the archives for the list or change your subscription> settings from htt=
p://www.ceramics.org/clayart/> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who =
may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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Marta Matray on sat 3 mar 07
clayartz@SHAW.CA wrote:
>>>Yes, Picasso was a great artist, but a ceramist...really.> Although to
see the term ceramist in the common press is enlightening,> associating it
with Picasso is ludicrious.>>>>
ric swenson wrote:
>>>Is the 'Guernica' any less grand because Picasso didn't make his own
paint brushes? Is our little club so small that we cannot embrace even the
person who just sees clay as an end...not just a means? That's my two
cents, for now. Enjoy! Ric Swenson >>>
thank you ric! great post!
i saw a 'ceramics by picasso' exhibition few years ago,
it was fantastic, very inspiring.
even if picasso didnt dig his own clay
himself, i think it is really ludicrous to say that he
was NOT a ceramic artist.
he was a painter - yes - and
a sculptor in clay.
marta
Kathy Forer on sat 3 mar 07
On Mar 3, 2007, at 12:55 AM, Ric Swenson wrote:
> A big can of worms to open indeed my friend.
> =20
> Let the games begin......
Picasso invoked Bernard Leach's ire as well.
Picasso was much more than a painter of other people's pots. He
combined forms and used exuberant decoration in ways that were
unconventional and liberating.
Far from nameless, the craftsmen of Madoura helped Picasso make over
4,000 objects in 20 years. Madoura, the pottery factory of Georges
and Suzanne Ramie in Vallauris, near Antibes not far from Vallauris,
is where where Picasso met his last wife, Jacqueline Roque, who was
working there. Earlier, in the 1920s he had worked with Jean van
Dongen on some painted vases.
Apart from being a collagist of forms, I'm certain Picasso worked
clay himself, but I'll have to do some research for that.
Kathy Forer
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 4 mar 07
OK - I'm game.
#1 - I hate the phrase "ceramist" almost as much as I hate "crafter". I use
the phrase "potter", because I do functional work, or "materials based
artist", because I like materials, clay being in the top 2. The "ceramist"
is the dude who made the veneers for my teeth.
#2 - Picasso used his clay forms as a canvas, not unlike many slip casters
and china painters we all know and love. Creating your art on another
medium - clay, in Picasso's case - is merely another form of self
expression. There is no law that says you have to make your own forms - you
only have to make them uniquely yours in order to call them "yours".
#3 - I quit this list a while ago because I was told in some no-so-subtle
ways, both off-list and on, that I was not a real potter, and, if I was
anything, it was "subsidized", as I have a spouse with a so-called 'real"
job. So I don't dig my own clay. So what. Every group has it's
extremists. Be it potters or jewelers or religious fanatics. Personally, I
don't care if you make your own clay, glaze, use commercial, throw your own
stuff (please, seriously - we all know people who use production
throwers...), fuel your kiln with your own farts or plug an EZ Bake oven
into the wall - whatever. This is where glassblowers have an advantage -
they work in teams and they acknowledge the team.
#4 - the only thing that makes anything "wrong" is passing off someone's
hard earned work or designs as your own.
...Lo
Working night and day to alienate everyone on the list. :-0
***
Lois Ruben Aronow Ceramics
www.loisaronow.com
www.craftsofthedamned.blogspot.com
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 4 mar 07
>>>Is the 'Guernica' any less grand because Picasso didn't make his own
paint brushes?
Actually, I thought "Guernica" was far more grand after Julian Schnabel
defaced it, but then again, I adore street art and graffiti.
...Lo
***
Lois Ruben Aronow Ceramics
www.loisaronow.com
www.craftsofthedamned.blogspot.com
LindaC on sun 4 mar 07
On 3/4/07 12:15 PM, "Lois Ruben Aronow" wrote:
You made me lol. There's J-Lo and then there's Free-Lo (as in
free-thinking) Keep it loose, free-flowing. linda who just loves a lovely
pot that got made somehow....
> ...Lo
> Working night and day to alienate everyone on the list. :-0
Sandra Kelements on sun 4 mar 07
You are too funny!!! I love it!!
Sandra K
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Ruben Aronow"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Picasso as a Ceramist....
> OK - I'm game.
>
> #1 - I hate the phrase "ceramist" almost as much as I hate "crafter". I
> use
> the phrase "potter", because I do functional work, or "materials based
> artist", because I like materials, clay being in the top 2. The
> "ceramist"
> is the dude who made the veneers for my teeth.
>
> #2 - Picasso used his clay forms as a canvas, not unlike many slip casters
> and china painters we all know and love. Creating your art on another
> medium - clay, in Picasso's case - is merely another form of self
> expression. There is no law that says you have to make your own forms -
> you
> only have to make them uniquely yours in order to call them "yours".
>
> #3 - I quit this list a while ago because I was told in some no-so-subtle
> ways, both off-list and on, that I was not a real potter, and, if I was
> anything, it was "subsidized", as I have a spouse with a so-called 'real"
> job. So I don't dig my own clay. So what. Every group has it's
> extremists. Be it potters or jewelers or religious fanatics. Personally,
> I
> don't care if you make your own clay, glaze, use commercial, throw your
> own
> stuff (please, seriously - we all know people who use production
> throwers...), fuel your kiln with your own farts or plug an EZ Bake oven
> into the wall - whatever. This is where glassblowers have an advantage -
> they work in teams and they acknowledge the team.
>
> #4 - the only thing that makes anything "wrong" is passing off someone's
> hard earned work or designs as your own.
>
> ...Lo
> Working night and day to alienate everyone on the list. :-0
>
> ***
> Lois Ruben Aronow Ceramics
> www.loisaronow.com
> www.craftsofthedamned.blogspot.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Kathy Forer on mon 5 mar 07
> Apart from being a collagist of forms, I'm certain Picasso worked
> clay himself, but I'll have to do some research for that.
Helen and Marta gave some terrific links to Picasso ceramics on the =20
web. Though there actually aren't that many pictures online when it =20
comes down to it. Certainly nothing like looking through the William =20
Rubin 1980 MoMA Retrospective catalog. Or the Metropolitan Museum =20
catalog of Picasso Ceramics (which I don't have here). Or any book =20
actually. Much as the Internet has a wealth of information, a bound =20
book is often a far better medium for communicating an overview.
Even something as thorough as the Catalogue Raisonn=E9 at Texas A&M =20
University Year=3D1950&CurrentItem=3D1&ViewStyle=3Dgallery> gives detail at the =20
expense of white space, text and juxtaposition. The web format is =20
just too restrictive unless used for that purpose from creative =20
inception, i.e. something like the long-gone previous incarnation of =20
jodi.org, but that's way off-subject.
I was rushing off when I wrote earlier. Of course Picasso mucked with =20=
clay! But I hadn't known that he sat at a wheel. That makes me smile, =20=
thinking of him watching and being as one with the wheel as it turn =20
round and round again, stubbing his handsome short toes on the stone =20
kick wheel.
Most of Picasso's early bronze sculptures started with clay, Woman =20
Combing Her Hair, Head of a Woman, Bather, Man with Sheep. Working in =20=
his small Vallauris near Madoura, he made more clay, Owl, Plate with =20
Fish, Lady in Mantilla, Priapus, etc. etc. Madoura's ability to turn =20
out clay as if they were prints seemed to free him to use forms more =20
modally, She-Goat, Baboon, Girl Jumping Rope and many more.
Though there had been assemblage of dimensional sculpture -- =20
including Jose de Creeft's prescient 1925 Le Picador, made of stove =20
pipe and scrap metal -- before the late 40s and early 50s when =20
Picasso was active at Vallauris, his use of ceramics in assemblage =20
was probably new. It was what earned those who followed in his =20
footsteps the opprobrium "Picassoettes" from Bernard Leach in =20
reference to a 1958 exhibit at Goldsmith's College, University of =20
London, called '=46rom Pre-history to Picasso' where William Newland, =20=
Margaret Hine, and Nicholas Vergette, three members of the Bayswater =20
workshop, "were all liberated by Picasso into exploring a =20
Mediterranean rather than an oriental tradition."
Perhaps most resonant, a quote from Picasso's lifelong friend [Jaime =20
Sabart=E8s] who "wrote of the artist's amazement in 1946 at the =20
technical vocabulary he was learning in this very studio -- 'flamme =20
libre . . . email cuit . . . couvettes sur silicate . . . =20
sulfura . . . caissons souffl=E9s . . . fondants . . . englobes . . . =20=
plein feu' -- and so many other words, all new and full of magical-=20
poetical overtones."
Translation anyone? the spelling is correct as copied from "Forever =20
Picasso" by Robert Otero, Abrams. Englobes? Email cuit -- qu'est-ce =20
que c'est ca?
Kathy Forer
raw email
Marcia Selsor on mon 5 mar 07
>
> Though there had been assemblage of dimensional sculpture -- =20
> including Jose de Creeft's prescient 1925 Le Picador, made of stove =20=
> pipe and scrap metal -- before the late 40s and early 50s when =20
> Picasso was active at Vallauris, his use of ceramics in assemblage =20
> was probably new. It was what earned those who followed in his =20
> footsteps the opprobrium "Picassoettes" from Bernard Leach in =20
> reference to a 1958 exhibit at Goldsmith's College, University of =20
> London, called '=46rom Pre-history to Picasso' where William Newland, =20=
> Margaret Hine, and Nicholas Vergette, three members of the =20
> Bayswater workshop, "were all liberated by Picasso into exploring a =20=
> Mediterranean rather than an oriental tradition."
>
>
> Perhaps most resonant, a quote from Picasso's lifelong friend =20
> [Jaime Sabart=E8s] who "wrote of the artist's amazement in 1946 at =20
> the technical vocabulary he was learning in this very studio -- =20
> 'flamme libre . . . email cuit . . . couvettes sur silicate . . . =20
> sulfura . . . caissons souffl=E9s . . . fondants . . . englobes . . . =20=
> plein feu' -- and so many other words, all new and full of magical-=20
> poetical overtones."
>
> Translation anyone? the spelling is correct as copied from "Forever =20=
> Picasso" by Robert Otero, Abrams. Englobes? Email cuit -- qu'est-ce =20=
> que c'est ca?
>
> Kathy Forer
> raw email
>
I hadn't realized Nick Vergette was part of the Bayswater Group. He =20
was my grad. professor at Southern Ill. University-Carbondale. I can =20
see it through Nick's work on large sculptures.
I enjoy Picasso's plates where conceptually he makes the bullring out =20=
of the rim. Simple slip paintings. They are m favorites along with =20
Don Quijote on the plates.
Marcia Selsor
http://marciaselsor.com
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