Kathy McDonald on wed 7 mar 07
On March 06,2007 Kathryn in NC asked:
"Leads me to ask about how do people
feel about being asked to replicate another artist's works?"
I was going to make this one short n sweet and just say
I think it's wrong, but instead I'll tell a story.
about a year ago I was asked by a couple who
own a ceramic supply shop to replicate a mug that they had
purchased
from another potter in another province.
They wanted 50 or so.
I said no and explained that I felt it was an unethical
thing to do. They are operators of a ceramic wholesale
supply shop so I suggested they contact the person
who made them and ask for permission to use the design.
( a pine tree on a bank with water). Then cast them
as they had the equipment to do so.
They explained that they did not feel this was needed
and that they had already made the commitment
to resell these mugs to another store operator and that
they had to be hand thrown.
They then asked me to throw the blanks with c 6 clay
and stated that they would glaze and decorate them.
Again I said no!! They just didn't get it!!
I think it's the mentality of mass ceramic production.
They got another potter to do the mugs glazed and decorated)
for them, apparently she had no problem with
replicating someone else's mugs for
6 dollars a mug.
I guess for me its a question of ethics not dollars
My husband tells me, "Kathy... yer gonna die with nothing
but your principles
left."
That's OK coz I'm going to be cremated and sit in a "one of
a
kind" urn.
I think there will be varied opinions
about this Kathryn, this is just my take.
If I were Tony C. I would have entitled this post,
"Some Girls Do" ...but that's very politically
incorrect....right Tony??
Kathy Mc
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/713 - Release
Date: 3/7/2007 9:24 AM
Megan Mason on wed 7 mar 07
In a message dated 3/7/2007 11:54:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
potter@WESTMAN.WAVE.CA writes:
I said no and explained that I felt it was an unethical
thing to do.
I make mostly one of a kind pieces when I throw and I have had a number of
my gallerys over the years commission other potters to copy my items when
they have a second customer who wanted the one of a kind item and hesitated.
It was and has been very hurtful and frustrating.So what does one do?
I even had a couple instances where I demonstrated in public and had someone
photo my entire booth and my working and one even had copied every item and
attempted to copy the glazing as well and II encountered her when I juried
a show with her there,sigh.
With those morals and today's technology it is not getting any better.I
even see instructors in class settings who ask students to specifically
interpert or possibly copy published artists/potters works and that also bothers me.
I applaud you and everyone who has the spine and moral honesty to resist
the temptation.
Margaret "Meg'
**************************************
AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
Josh Berkus on wed 7 mar 07
Kathy,
> I said no and explained that I felt it was an unethical
> thing to do. =A0They are operators of a ceramic wholesale
> supply shop so I suggested they contact the person
> who made them and ask for permission to use the design.
> ( a pine tree on a bank with water). Then cast them
> as they had the equipment to do so.
Note that, at least in the US, in addition to being unethical the above ope=
ns=20
the shop up to civil suits by the original potter.
I've often been amazed at how willing small business owners can be to flout=
=20
the law if they can make money off it. I've had other experiences with, fo=
r=20
example, small businesses fax spamming. Even when confronted with the fact=
=20
that their practices are illegal, often the manager will simply ignore it.
=46rankly, if I had been the one approached, I'd have tried to contact the=
=20
original potter (if possible) and notified them of the shop's activities.
=2D-=20
The Fuzzy Chef
San Francisco
Elizabeth Priddy on wed 7 mar 07
ok, not everyone teaches. I get that.=0A=0ABut this is just unreasonable. =
you cannot extend the same standards =0Aof business and fair and ethical c=
ommerce to students in classrooms.=0A=0AFair use laws are there so that peo=
ple can copy texts verbatim in =0Aclassrom situations. Students LEARN by c=
opying, interpreting, and=0Aexploring existing forms. No one springs forth=
a potter from the womb with=0Aoriginal ideas. You, yourself, learned by c=
opying unless you invented =0Acircular forms on a wheel or handbuilding.=0A=
=0AI understand that your circumstances and the abuse of weak-minded=0Auncr=
eative business people has made your perspective askew.=0A=0ABut my spine a=
nd moral honesty are intact when we go through a =0Apublished journal in cl=
ass and I ask the students what interests them.=0AWe then proceed to work o=
n it. I guarantee that beginning and intermediate=0Aand even pros can't co=
py you exactly, as everyone brings something to the=0Aparty.=0A=0AI am on y=
our side on the business front and definitely wondering what you=0Amust be =
thinking about the teaching aspect.=0A=0AMaybe it would be an interesting c=
onversation at NCECA. I will have a red boa.=0AJust don't hit me. We're b=
oth locals. =0A=0AFrankly, I think outing the person that tried to rip you=
off would be appropriate.=0AShame has a place in the world.=0A =0AElizabet=
h Priddy=0A=0ABeaufort, NC - USA=0Ahttp://www.elizabethpriddy.com=0A=0A=0A-=
---- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Megan Mason =0ATo: C=
LAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=0ASent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 1:25:15 PM=0ASubje=
ct: Re: Replicating another's work, a response to Kathryn in NC=0A=0A=0AWit=
h those morals and today's technology it is not getting any better.I=0Ae=
ven see instructors in class settings who ask students to specifically=0Ain=
terpert or possibly copy published artists/potters works and that also bo=
thers me.=0A=0AI applaud you and everyone who has the spine and moral hon=
esty to resist=0Athe temptation.=0AMargaret "Meg'=0A=0A=0A =0A___________=
_________________________________________________________________________=
=0AFood fight? Enjoy some healthy debate =0Ain the Yahoo! Answers Food & Dr=
ink Q&A.=0Ahttp://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=3Dlist&sid=3D396545367
Vince Pitelka on wed 7 mar 07
Replicating someone elses work as a learning experience is never a problem,
as long as it is done purely as a learning experience and the work is not
sold. Anyone who would replicate the work of some other craftsperson
without authorization and attempt to sell it is severely flawed morally. I
hate to think of the other transgressions such a person would commit. I
don't think that I could depend on them for anything. That goes for the
person who commisioned the copies of another artist's work to be sold, and
the person who accepted that commission.
Kathy McDonald is to be commended for refusing to have anything to do with
this business. I suppose I have an idealized concept of the craftsperson's
ethic, and it is hard for me to imagine any self-respecting craftsperson who
would take on such a shady venture, but I suppose that's it isn't it? The
people who put out the commission, and the person who accepted it, were both
obviously lacking in any sort of craftsperson's ethic.
Kathy, I'd recommend that you forward these messages to the person who
approached you about this commission.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Kathy McDonald on wed 7 mar 07
I am responding to some of the posts on
the list that have been written
in reply to my original post.
Especially to the recent part of the discussion
and to Meg and Elizabeth's comments
This topic has been discussed in the past
and I think that there is
a consensus among most that copying and
imitating a particular style to learn
or to enhance skills is an essential
part of the evolution of any craftsperson
or artist.
Yes, we all do it, and I hope we encourage it.
It's part of what makes us all change and grow.
I also hope that we never become immune to
the inspiration that other people's work provides.
I use other people's glazes, sometimes I'm inspired
by a design, I might try to make it work for me, but
if it looks like a direct "rip off", I'd ditch it.
My original post was not aimed at the "recreation"
of other's pots, or even the imitative work that
a person may do when they have a strong teacher
or mentor.
My major beef remains ...there are people who
will "replicate" rather than "re-create."
And they do it knowing full well they are doing rip offs.
I am not aware of any protection for the small business
type potter offered by the Fair trade laws, here in Canada.
As I mentioned, I would not , even though it would have been
easy to, make 50 mugs and paint another person's design on
them
just to make a sale. That created hard feelings.
Another potter was comfortable doing that... so...
I still think it's not the "right" thing to do.
Kathy
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/713 - Release
Date: 3/7/2007 9:24 AM
sacredclay on thu 8 mar 07
- I appreciate all the response here. I was not really that
comfortable to do it to begin with, but that still doesn't justify it.
I'm only making one piece for this person simply because she hasn't
been able to track down the original artist and the place that she has
attempted to contact in Nova Scotia apparently has closed down. I'm not
comfortable in copying this. did it simply because I need the money.
Have serious regrets now because it doesn't seem right. My solution is
this. I will make one and only one copy and then I will show her a
bunch of others that I will make with my own type of face. No one else
but mine. If she likes mine better, then I will smash the copy. It
seems the right thing to do. If she's not happy about it, I will tell
her what y'all have been saying. Just couldn't figure out how to put it
into words as to why. Please understand that I wan't deliberately
trying to make money off of someone else's work in mass market. Just
for one person. I don't think that makes any difference whether it's
one or many.It just didn't feel right to me.Thanks to all who
posted.Contritely, Kathryn in NC
The Fuzzy Chef on thu 8 mar 07
Sacred,
> - I appreciate all the response here. =A0I was not really that
> comfortable to do it to begin with, but that still doesn't justify it.
> I'm only making one piece for this person simply because she hasn't
> been able to track down the original artist and the place that she has
> attempted to contact in Nova Scotia apparently has closed down.
Well, I think that's a different situation. It's a different thing to=20
commission a copy if it's proven impossible to reach the original potter.
In Kathy's example, the shop owners were deliberately depriving the=20
original potter of income. In your example, neither you nor the client=20
is; they would hire the original potter if they could find them!
I've actually done some copies of old Highland Clay work because they no=20
longer do the style my in-laws have. But that was (a) for my relatives,=20
not for sale, and (b) *after* we contacted Highland and they said they=20
weren't interested.
=2D-=20
The Fuzzy Chef
San Francisco
| |
|
