louroess2210 on sat 24 mar 07
On Mar 23, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> As I'm sure you are aware plasticity of clay bodies
> is influenced to some extent by at least these 5
> factors and there must be others besides these:
> 1. particle packing
> 2. moisture content
> 3. adsorbed organics
> 4. pH
> 5. ionic concentration and strength
Dave, regarding number 4. I've heard it recommended that you can add
either vinegar or urine to clay to get it to age faster. Is this
changing the pH?
Does anyone have any idea how much vinegar to add to say a five
gallon bucket of slurry ?
I think I'll not try the other option just yet.
Regards, Lou
Dave Finkelnburg on sat 24 mar 07
Lou,
No, I don't think they are doing the same thing.
Vinegar (acetic acid) is a relatively weak acid, but
still has a pH of about 2.5. I Googled human urine
and found it has a range of pH4.5-8, with 6 being most
common. 7 is, as you know, neutral. Since this is an
exponential scale, you'd have to use at least a
thousand times as much urine with pH of 4.5 as vinegar
to have the same effect on pH! I don't think that
would work.
Urine, according to sources I Googled, contains,
among other things, salts of sodium, potassium,
magnesium, and calcium as well as ammonia and some
organic compounds. The organics will decompose and
lower pH, the ammonia will feed the bacteria required
for decomposition. I would expect fresh urine would
deflocculate a clay, but over time bacterial action
would lower pH and the organics would aid plasticity
too.
I believe Ron Roy has commented on vinegar before
so you might want to check the archives. I have not
tried either substance in my clay. :-)
Dave Finkelnburg
From: louroess2210
I've heard it recommended that you can add
either vinegar or urine to clay to get it to age
faster. Is this changing the pH?
Does anyone have any idea how much vinegar to add to
say a five gallon bucket of slurry ?
I think I'll not try the other option just yet.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
Kathy McDonald on sat 24 mar 07
I have always thrown some apple cider vinegar into my
recycle
bucket about 2 ce a year. About 1 cup to a big garbage can
full of clay.
Something about it makes the clay smell more like really
well aged clay.
Also I've forgotten slop buckets in the garage in the summer
and they sometimes get really rank but they
also seem to make the clay age well.
I was told by a guy that digs and ages his own clay that the
apple cider
works faster than regular vinegar.
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of
Dave
Finkelnburg
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 6:12 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Plasticty of Clay Bodies-Dave
Lou,
No, I don't think they are doing the same thing.
Vinegar (acetic acid) is a relatively weak acid, but
still has a pH of about 2.5. I Googled human urine
and found it has a range of pH4.5-8, with 6 being most
common. 7 is, as you know, neutral. Since this is an
exponential scale, you'd have to use at least a
thousand times as much urine with pH of 4.5 as vinegar
to have the same effect on pH! I don't think that
would work.
Urine, according to sources I Googled, contains,
among other things, salts of sodium, potassium,
magnesium, and calcium as well as ammonia and some
organic compounds. The organics will decompose and
lower pH, the ammonia will feed the bacteria required
for decomposition. I would expect fresh urine would
deflocculate a clay, but over time bacterial action
would lower pH and the organics would aid plasticity
too.
I believe Ron Roy has commented on vinegar before
so you might want to check the archives. I have not
tried either substance in my clay. :-)
Dave Finkelnburg
From: louroess2210
I've heard it recommended that you can add
either vinegar or urine to clay to get it to age
faster. Is this changing the pH?
Does anyone have any idea how much vinegar to add to
say a five gallon bucket of slurry ?
I think I'll not try the other option just yet.
____________________________________________________________
________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo!
Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
____________________________________________________________
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Ron Roy on sun 25 mar 07
Vinegar works but the smell after only a week is not easy to live with -
and the results are temporary.
I once had to deal with clay with urine in it - never again.
The ideal solution to flocculating clay - and/or counteracting
deflocculation is Epsom salts in my opinion. It works and keeps on working.
It works right away and does not interfere with subsequent beneficial
aging.
RR
>> As I'm sure you are aware plasticity of clay bodies
>> is influenced to some extent by at least these 5
>> factors and there must be others besides these:
>> 1. particle packing
>> 2. moisture content
>> 3. adsorbed organics
>> 4. pH
>> 5. ionic concentration and strength
>
>Dave, regarding number 4. I've heard it recommended that you can add
>either vinegar or urine to clay to get it to age faster. Is this
>changing the pH?
>Does anyone have any idea how much vinegar to add to say a five
>gallon bucket of slurry ?
>I think I'll not try the other option just yet.
>Regards, Lou
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
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