Mel Jacobson on mon 22 sep 97
if anyone else as problems with spelling, grammar, or sentence
structure please refer all comments to me....i do need help.
plus i don't give a damn.
i have been fighting my entire teaching career with unskilled,
pedantic, uncreative english teachers. (i realize that is an oxymoron)
`who cares if you have experience, ideas, or things to say?....just
make sure you do it to our specs.`
we have a great many people on this list that will never participate
in the written word........they are frightened beyond belief...an attitude
that was spawned by the teachers from hell`.
they sure will not take a chance now.
i am not worried about sue's feelings...she is a tough, grown
up woman well over sixty....and she can lift a knee in a crotch if she
so decided.
and i say again, if you want to correct my papers
with red ink, gd it, do it to me in private.
but if you do it in public................watch out.
mel
p.s. i am more than aware that jews have for centuries been doing
hand written religious material....i did not think that they were called
bibles.....torah, talmud, and other names......the bible mentioned
last week is the first `christian bible` since about 1500 or as it
is often referred, since the printing press. thanks to my jewish friends
for the help. (i recieved a very long, wonderful, educational post about
this subject...done with love and respect.)
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Richard Gralnik on tue 23 sep 97
When I was a college student at Leeds University in England, my first
paper came back with a failing grade and a comment from the instructor
that if I couldn't present my ideas clearly it weakened my argument
and I lessened my ability to defend my point of view. As a result
the quality of my answer suffered and my grade was affected.
It turns out he didn't know I was American and he marked me down for
spelling labor without a "u" and for other differences between our
shared language. When I went in to ask him about my grade, he saw
who I was (the only "Yank" in the department) and heard my accent
(yes, we Californians do have one). He laughed and laughed and said
"I'll be you're here about the score on your paper!"
Clayart isn't college, and we're here to learn rather than be graded.
I've only sent a note back to a fellow clayartist when there were typos
on an occasion twice. The first time was a few years back when someone
posted a note with so many typos and grammatical problems that I found
it hard to understand. I wrote the person and asked for clarification.
Turns out they had a learning disability that made it almost impossible
for them to write clearly or to spell properly.
The other was when the content of the post was intended to be used as
a form letter. I mentioned in a private email that if the form letter
was used with the grammatical mistakes and typos that it might lessen
the impact of the letter. The person I wrote to made it very clear
that they didn't appreciate my input. Even though I meant my comments
to be supportive rather than critical that was the last time I offered
that kind of response to a post here.
Richard
scraping the paint off my cuticles after airbrushing my kiln frame
yesterday
Danny Bird on wed 24 sep 97
> The other was when the content of the post was intended to be used as
> a form letter. I mentioned in a private email that if the form letter
> was used with the grammatical mistakes and typos that it might lessen
> the impact of the letter. The person I wrote to made it very clear
> that they didn't appreciate my input. Even though I meant my comments
> to be supportive rather than critical that was the last time I offered
> that kind of response to a post here.
When I was in college, pursuing a degree in art, I learned early on to
listen with an open mind to criticisms, and cull the value from them.
This is an inherent element in the creative/learning process. Of course,
this isn't easy to do. I remember it being pretty difficult actually.
But, once one realizes that it is:
only one person's opinion
not a personal attack
intended to be "constructive"
It is a mature response to accept it, look for the value in the comments
and get on with your life.
Danny -in northern Virginia, where it's now sunny and cool.
Heidi Evelyn Nolte on sat 22 nov 97
There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
say here versus elsewhere?
Just curious on your thoughts....
******************************************************************************
Heidi Evelyn Nolte
4302 N. 15th
Tacoma, WA 98406
(206) 752-9893
God Bless!!!
Ray Carlton on sun 23 nov 97
hello heidi.......no i don't feel like that at all we belong to a tradition
that goes back thousands of years and most of the stuff we talk about and
give advice on has been learnt and forgotten many times over. We are merely
rediscovering the huge body of ceramic knowledge that has been lost over
the centuries and if anyone benefits from it well i think that is a good
thing...Ultimately the more good pots there are around the more people will
notice them thus raising people awareness and hopefully their desire to
part with cash to buy some of them, hopefully some of mine and hers and his
and etc etc....get it??
At 08:24 22/11/97 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
>any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
>ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
>the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
>advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
>say here versus elsewhere?
>
>Just curious on your thoughts....
>
>***************************************************************************
***
>Heidi Evelyn Nolte
>4302 N. 15th
>Tacoma, WA 98406
>
>(206) 752-9893
>
>God Bless!!!
>
>
raycarlt@valylink.net.au
Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia 3799
Vince Pitelka on sun 23 nov 97
At 08:24 PM 11/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
>any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
>ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
>the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
>advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
>say here versus elsewhere?
Heidi -
I would hope that anyone who enters the academic arena does so partially
because they derive great satisfaction from disseminating information. I
certainly do. That is part of the joy I derive from this discussion list.
I thoroughly believe in the dictum "What goes around, comes around." Anyone
who freely gives out information receives appropriate reward in some way.
Anyone who plagiarizes word-for-word from texts or handouts, will no doubt
receive their just deserts. It is the way things work. So I do not worry
about it.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
kinoko@junction.net on sun 23 nov 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
>any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
>ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
>the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
>advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
>say here versus elsewhere?
>
>Just curious on your thoughts....
>Heidi, If we will not share our ideas with everyone,we have no business
calling ourselves "Artists"/ "potters". If we do not acknowledge the source
of our ideas or information,we are cheating ourselves as well as the
recipients. One must assume that we are offering advice,councel,information,
to equals...not talking down,but talking 'across". How can any of us
consider ourselves "authors" of information which has been around for
thousands of years? Idoubt there are more than a small handful of real;
innovations in pottery making. From my personal view crativity is mostly
nonsense and "Art" mostly reflects a poverty of the spirit unable to
acknowledge the "Artists' debt to history.
There IS proprietory information and that is a whole other thing and usually
covers ideas,things,constructions which are patented or regitered in some
way.Kinoko
>******************************************************************************
>Heidi Evelyn Nolte
>4302 N. 15th
>Tacoma, WA 98406
>
>(206) 752-9893
>
>God Bless!!!
>
*****************************************
*****************************************
** Don and Isao Morrill **
** Falkland, B.C. **
** kinoko@junction.net **
*****************************************
*****************************************
WardBurner@aol.com on sun 23 nov 97
Heidi,
You asked;
<<<any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
say here versus elsewhere?>>>>
Things that I have written here have appeared in print without my knowledge
or permission (must be pretty hard up for copy, huh?). So what!.... If you
post things on the net, you've sent it out into the ether and you no longer
have any control over it. I follow that somewhat corny notion that what ever
you willing give away will come back to you many fold. I do edit my own
comments here much more than I do on the phone. I do that for selfish
reasons..... I don't have the time or energy to get into heated debates. Not
that there shouldn't be debate, it's just that I don't type real fast :)
Marc Ward
Ward Burner Systems
PO Box 333
Dandridge, TN 37725
USA
423.397.2914 voice
423.397.1253 fax
wardburner@aol.com
Dannon Rhudy on sun 23 nov 97
Heidi,
When one answers a question or posits an idea, explains one's
experience or offers information to a list of this kind, concerns
for "plagiarism" are not uppermost in one's mind. Or there at
all, I rather suspect. If one felt one had some valuable "secret"
information and didn't want to share, then - it would not get
posted to this list. Much of the information/ideas written here
are in any case available in other places, classrooms, workshops,
etc. But much of it is very scattered, different teachers
know/teach/emphasize different things. My guess is that
people who go to great lengths to explain technical information
and how to use it, or to discuss ideas of esthetics, or ethics;
or to describe their wonder at a sunset or a snowstorm or a
pot or a painting or simply to tell a story - probably are not
worried that something will be "kidnapped" from them.
It will be interesting to hear other views. Maybe we will
discover that when Ron Roy or Tom Buck or Linda Arbuckle,
Marcia Selsor or Jack Troy, Jonathan Kaplan (and a host of others)
explain something in careful detail, they hide some significant
bit of informtation so that the rest can't "steal" from them.
Yeah, that must be it...the reason my saggar-fires are not as
slick as Vince Pitelka's is that he does not give a detailed
enough account of how to make a REALLY GOOD terra sigilata...
Dannon Rhudy
finally getting to enjoy fall in a stubbornly warm Texas.
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
There is so much useful information provided through this
listserver. Do
any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry
that your
ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those
of you in
the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when
offering
advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in
what you
say here versus elsewhere?
Just curious on your thoughts....
******************************************************************
************
Heidi Evelyn Nolte
4302 N. 15th
Tacoma, WA 98406
(206) 752-9893
God Bless!!!
Ric Swenson on mon 24 nov 97
Heidi, ( in Tacoma, yet !)
I can really only speak for myself, but I was taught that whether or not
one is paid for teaching, or simply sharing information altruistically,
that part of the act of sharing was attributing the information to a
source, or personal experience or experiment. It is easy to make people
think you are knowledgable. Some folks are impressed with degress and some
aren't impressed no matter what you have done, or who you studied pottery
with along the years. "The proof is, most times, in the pudding." ( can I
attribute that to B. Franklin??)
If people choose plagiarism or 'kidnapping' ideas or information from this
list, or from any other source without attributing it, it is their
problem. No time to worry about their actions. You could spend your life
'chasing pirates'. Not my choice.
In addition to the teaching courses I took at PLU, I studied with F. C.
Ball at UPS and he, as an author and someone who did a LOT of research in
bodies and glazes, reiterated many times the importance of telling where
you got information. It acknowledges the author and also helps people
understand the breadth and depth of information available today. It is even
more true in 1997 than it was in 1976 when I listened to Carlton talk about
the subject at length.
It is always a good idea to offer the OPINION and avoid absolute truths on
the internet....It seems there is ALWAYS someone with another experience,
or more knowledge that can ADD or SUBTRACT from your offering. That is why
many offer info with the caution "IMHO" (In My Humble Opinion)...or "it
has been my experience that..."
In that vein, sharing glaze and clay body formulas is always
interesting..."Glazes do not travel well." I think is what I heard F. C.
say. Meaning that it is hard to EXACTLY match materials, water, fuel, kiln
atmosphere and technique of application from one
potter/studio/state/area/country...to the next. Experimentation will be
the best teacher.... but always attribute the source of the original
formulation.
TV has taught us the terrible lesson of the 1/2 hour solution to ANY
problem. (??) It ain't true.......some solutions take the full 2 1/2 hour
feature length to solve ! (g) ...and some take a lifetime. So, try not
to get too hung up on INSTANT solutions. Failure sometimes teaches even
more than instant success.
IMHO
HTH
Ric
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
>any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
>ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
>the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
>advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
>say here versus elsewhere?
>
>Just curious on your thoughts....
>
>******************************************************************************
>Heidi Evelyn Nolte
>4302 N. 15th
>Tacoma, WA 98406
>
>(206) 752-9893
>
>God Bless!!!
#####################################
From: Ric Swenson, ( home ) : P.O. Box 494,
North Bennington, VT 05257 - 0494 U.S.A
home telephone ( 802 ) 447 - 4744
( work ) : Bennington College, Route 67 - A
Bennington, Vermont 05201 - 6001
( 802 ) 440 - 4621 ( fax 440 - 4582 )
email: rswenson@bennington.edu
#####################################
" If you want to teach a bear to dance,
..... you should be prepared to dance.....
..... until the bear gets tired. "
"Idealism increases in direct proportion
to one's distance from the problem"
......John Galsworthy
Paul Lewing on mon 24 nov 97
Heidi,
Once at an NCECA conference, I was in a bunch of people who were
discussing how open and shari"ng with their information most potters
were. Then one person said, Well, of course they're willing to share
information. They know it won't work for anyone else anyway".
Seriously, anyone who has developed a truly unique style or method or
amassed a huge body of specialized knowledge knows that if someone
else wanted to copy them, by the time they actually mastered all that,
they'd have adapted it into something new. I don't believe there are
really very many tidbits of information that can, by themselves, let
someone else copy anybody. Clay work is just too complex for that.
We've all had the experience of being in a workshop or somewhere,
watching the teacher make stuff, having them explain every step in
great detail, making the same kind of work out of the same materials
as the teacher, firing it in the same kiln, and any fool can see at
the end that the master's work is far superior.
One of the reasons I enjoy teaching and am willing to share virtually
any information I may have is that all through my career, almost every
potter I've ever met has shared with me. Well, you can't give that
back to those people. You have to pass it on. I'd be afraid if I
didn't pass it on, people would stop passing it to me.
There are, however, situations where I don't give away everything. For
instance, if I've developed a truly spectacular glaze that's really
unusual, I may not give you the recipe for it, but I'd be willing to
tell you how I came up with it, and teach you all you need to know
about glazes to arrive at the same place.
It is true, though, that potters are amazingly helpful and
uncompetitive with each other. It's one of a number of reasons I
became a potter in the first place. And this list is the best example
of this I've ever seen. The amount of work that goes into answers
that are given away free here every day always amazes me.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Suzanne Storer on tue 25 nov 97
Heidi,
Potters in my view, more than any other group I know, are sharing people.
We all work damn hard, very few of us will become monetarily wealthy for our
labors. 1000 people going their own route in clay will go in 1000
directions. All of us have and will learn from each other and those who
have gone before. I for one feel it a privelege and gratifying to convey
information to another that will be useful.
Suzanne Storer
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>There is so much useful information provided through this listserver. Do
>any of you ever think about the issues of plagiarism and worry that your
>ideas might be :kidnapped" by other out there...especially those of you in
>the academic arena? Do you consider yourselves "authors" when offering
>advice, etc. in the "cyber world"? How does that play a part in what you
>say here versus elsewhere?
>
>Just curious on your thoughts....
>
>******************************************************************************
>Heidi Evelyn Nolte
>4302 N. 15th
>Tacoma, WA 98406
>
>(206) 752-9893
>
>God Bless!!!
>
Jonathan Kaplan on thu 27 nov 97
will be interesting to hear other views. Maybe we will
> discover that when Ron Roy or Tom Buck or Linda Arbuckle,
> Marcia Selsor or Jack Troy, Jonathan Kaplan (and a host of others)
> explain something in careful detail, they hide some significant
> bit of informtation so that the rest can't "steal" from them.
Since I saw my name mentioned here, I would like to clarify .........
I have a pretty good sense of humor and it is with this in mind that I read
the above snipit from the author's recent post.
Information is out there in many ways, shapes, and forms. You can avail
yourself of any and all information by learning how to ask questions. No
question is stupid or beyond asking.
If I can offer my spin based on my knowledge and experiece, I do so without
any desire for
anything in return. Well, you could share something with me, visit my
studio if you are in the high country, or just say thanks. Maybe take me
out for dinner or a beer.
I have never regarded the vast amount of information that is out there and
some of the information that I have as proprietary. You ask me, I'll give
it my best shot. I don't withhold anything so that the rest could "steal"
from me. The only detail I'll offer or not even attempt to hide is that
even though this works for me, it may not work for you. Try it, you may
like it.
The other side of the coin is that if I have been solicited and then
subsequently hired by a company to provide technical services for them,
then yes, the information is propietary, I provide
non-disclosure/confidentiality agreements, and operate this way as I am
being compensated for my knowledge.
So what's the big fuss??
Happy Thanksgiving to you all!!
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president jonathan@csn.net
Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
(USPS deliveries only)
Plant Location
30800 Moffat Ave Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
( UPS, courier, and common carrier deliveries)
(970) 879-9139*voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
http://digitalfire.com/education/clay/kaplan1.htm
Joyce Lee on sat 29 nov 97
I understand Dannon's explanation about not really meaning that anything
was "left out" in her tongue-in-cheek remark, but I also think I
understand what some who took it seriously might have felt, if that
isn't being too presumptious. I didn't take it seriously, by the way,
but that's my point. As far as I can tell, this is a unique list. Clay
artists with hard-won, proven, well-deserved professional reputations
could be seen as taking a risk by putting themselves out on such a
skinny but loonng limb when they are so generous, honest, human and open
with their detailed, down-to-earth, lively flow of ideas, suggestions
and stories. They could do without us. The list as it is would not
exist without them. When they let the rest of the clay world witness
their dynamic and informative disagreements, they might be seen by small
minds as taking an unnecessary chance when leaving themselves open to
criticism and unkind comments by those who "just don't get it." Our
eyes aren't the only windows to our souls. Our attitudes reflect the
inner us, too, sometimes very precisely in a very brief comment. Those
of us who are still way down on the learning scale have nothing to lose
when we share out tidbits gleaned here and there, as well as from out
own struggles on the journey to becoming potters. For us, it's a
learning tool, but (in my case certainly) it's fun, also, a light and
productive period in my day. I miss the list when I can't read it and I
feel deprived. As I said, you could do without me and my ilk, however,
but never without those marvelous, talented pros who share so personally
their experiences and knowledge accumulated joyfully and painfully over,
in some cases, decades of learning. They touch my heart with their
willingness to express opinions and thus then risk being called
opinionated. I thank them.
Joyce
In the Mojave hoping to make sure that there is NO misunderstanding and
that I include Dannon, OF COURSE, in any mention of the clay stars on
this list. None of us have met her in cyberspace and not been impressed.
Stephen Mills on sun 30 nov 97
Dear Joyce,
You put your finger right on it here:
(snip) "Those of us who are still way down on the learning scale have
nothing to lose when we share out tidbits gleaned here and there"(snip)
We are all on the learning scale. Everyone has something to offer. The
day I stop learning will be the one when I'm in a box waiting for the
last firing. At Bath Potters Supplies we have an enormous number of
people through the shop and on the phone, many want advice, some want to
just talk pots and pass on something they've found. Often because they
are at the beginning they can see things those of us who have been
ploughing along for ages have missed by being too close to it. Going out
on a limb may seem risky to some, but it is part of the process of
recycling information, sometimes repetatively, but always of use to
somebody out there. Those who can't take a risk don't do it!
I rate the list and ALL who are on it VERY highly indeed for those
reasons. Long may it continue, AND all power to our moderators.
Steve
in Bath
UK
where it's neither warm nor cold but in between!
In message , Joyce Lee writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I understand Dannon's explanation about not really meaning that anything
>was "left out" in her tongue-in-cheek remark, but I also think I
>understand what some who took it seriously might have felt, if that
>isn't being too presumptious. I didn't take it seriously, by the way,
>but that's my point. As far as I can tell, this is a unique list. Clay
>artists with hard-won, proven, well-deserved professional reputations
>could be seen as taking a risk by putting themselves out on such a
>skinny but loonng limb when they are so generous, honest, human and open
>with their detailed, down-to-earth, lively flow of ideas, suggestions
>and stories. They could do without us. The list as it is would not
>exist without them. When they let the rest of the clay world witness
>their dynamic and informative disagreements, they might be seen by small
>minds as taking an unnecessary chance when leaving themselves open to
>criticism and unkind comments by those who "just don't get it." Our
>eyes aren't the only windows to our souls. Our attitudes reflect the
>inner us, too, sometimes very precisely in a very brief comment. Those
>of us who are still way down on the learning scale have nothing to lose
>when we share out tidbits gleaned here and there, as well as from out
>own struggles on the journey to becoming potters. For us, it's a
>learning tool, but (in my case certainly) it's fun, also, a light and
>productive period in my day. I miss the list when I can't read it and I
>feel deprived. As I said, you could do without me and my ilk, however,
>but never without those marvelous, talented pros who share so personally
>their experiences and knowledge accumulated joyfully and painfully over,
>in some cases, decades of learning. They touch my heart with their
>willingness to express opinions and thus then risk being called
>opinionated. I thank them.
>
>Joyce
>In the Mojave hoping to make sure that there is NO misunderstanding and
>that I include Dannon, OF COURSE, in any mention of the clay stars on
>this list. None of us have met her in cyberspace and not been impressed.
>
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home tel: (44) (0)1225 311699
work tel: (44) (0)1225 337046
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