Tony Hansen on wed 12 feb 97
I got this email. I don't whether I should touch this or not. Anyone want to
assist this gentleman?
> I am an attorney who represents a woman who was severly
> burned when the bottom fell out of her crockpot when she attempted to remove
> the crockery insert that was filled with hot soup. I would be interested to
> know if you could direct me to someone that I might be able to speak to about
> what may have caused the bottom to fall out of the crock. I would greatly
> appreciate any direction you may be able to give me. You may E-mail me at
> jmr_esq@msn.com. Thank you very much for your consideration regarding this
> matter.
> John M. Ranker, Esquire
=================================================================
Tony Hansen, IMC
Jeff Lawrence on thu 13 feb 97
>I got this email. I don't whether I should touch this or not. Anyone want to
>assist this gentleman?
>
>> I am an attorney who represents a woman who was severly
>> burned when the bottom fell out of her crockpot when she attempted to remove
>> the crockery insert that was filled with hot soup. I would be interested to
>> know if you could direct me to someone that I might be able to speak to about
>> what may have caused the bottom to fall out of the crock. I would greatly
>> appreciate any direction you may be able to give me. You may E-mail me at
>> jmr_esq@msn.com. Thank you very much for your consideration regarding this
>> matter.
>> John M. Ranker, Esquire
>
>=================================================================
>Tony Hansen, IMC
>
>
Tony,
Advise him to consider a productive career instead of trying to make money
off peoples misfortunes. And bill him for your time at $125.00 per hour --
you've spent a lot more time acquiring your understanding of clay than his
three-year trade school.
Self-aggrandizing suffices are almost as suspect as referring to oneself in
the third person. At least, that's what Jeff Lawrence thinks about it.
Jeff Lawrence
Sun Dagger Design
Rt 1 Box 394L
Espanola NM 87532
ph/fax 505-753-5913
Richard Gralnik on thu 13 feb 97
Sure,
Help some lawyer sue some potter's ass off.
No thanks.
Richard
unable to spot a microfracture or predict a dunt and
remembering the woman who got $4,000,000 from McDonald's for spilling
coffee on herself while driving
At 09:30 AM 2/12/97 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I got this email. I don't whether I should touch this or not. Anyone want to
>assist this gentleman?
>
>> I am an attorney who represents a woman who was severly
>> burned when the bottom fell out of her crockpot when she attempted to remove
>> the crockery insert that was filled with hot soup. I would be interested to
>> know if you could direct me to someone that I might be able to speak to about
>> what may have caused the bottom to fall out of the crock. I would greatly
>> appreciate any direction you may be able to give me. You may E-mail me at
>> jmr_esq@msn.com. Thank you very much for your consideration regarding this
>> matter.
>> John M. Ranker, Esquire
>
>=================================================================
>Tony Hansen, IMC
>
>
LINDA BLOSSOM on fri 14 feb 97
I'm with everyone else on whether or not to assist the lawyer. I did have
to stop and ask about the client. How badly was she burned. Did she put
total faith in the product that probably came without warnings to alert
her. People tend to have more caution with handmade items than these
factory jobs. Did the manufacturer know of a flaw but just let it pass
rather than go to the expense of correcting it and disposing of defective
pots? Potters aren't usually in the same level of profit as Rival who
usually makes the crock pot. Do we let people know that pottery has a level
of risk? I have had plates and cup handles break off as I was washing the
item. Casseroles crack when they were being washed. I know this stuff has
inherent weaknesses. But large companies with factory produced products do
not want to give that impression so maybe they should accept the
consequences of their arrogance or deceit? However, do we accept any risk
in life or do we expect to find someone to blame? . I don't think the
woman had any reason to expect the casserole to break. But, is that her
fault or Rival's? Life is full of unexpected cuts and burns. No real
opinion here, just questions and thoughts. Still, if that was MY
mother....
Linda Blossom
Ithaca, NY
The Allens on fri 14 feb 97
At least this attorney is going to the trouble of ascertaining if there is =
negligence behind this unfortunate injury. If someone is marketing cookware=
without knowing
what they are doing, this lady should not have bear the consequences.
C. Allen
full time lawyer, part-time potter
Gerry Barbe on fri 14 feb 97
> Richard
> unable to spot a microfracture or predict a dunt and
> remembering the woman who got $4,000,000 from McDonald's for spilling
> coffee on herself while driving
This case was closely followed by the CBC. Apparently the woman
was totally justified in bringing a suit against McDonald's.
McDonald's, and most fast food chains, serve their coffee almost at
boiling temperature. They say this is for taste but many don't agree
on this point. The woman in question is elderly, when the coffee
spilled on her lap she suffered second degree and third degree burns.
The suit was to force McDonald's to lower the temperature at which
they serve their coffee to prevent someone else from being seriously
injured. And I think it worked. It's difficult handling those
flimsy paper cups filled with a liquid hot enough to cause severe
burns...................Marilyn
Marilyn & Gerry Barbe
Ailsa Craig, On, CANADA
gbarbe@julian.uwo.ca
Akita-jin \"Lee Love\" on sat 15 feb 97
I was under the impression that this was a commercial crock pot liner
that broke. I had one break too, one I picked up at the GoodWill to
warm my Soda Ash solution in. I forgot to unplug the last time I used
it and found it cracked in the morning.
Lee
/(o\ Lee Love In St. Paul, MN Come see some pixs of my AkitaPup:
\o)/ mailto:Ikiru@juno.com http://www.millcomm.com/~leelove
LeeLove@millcomm.com "You can observe a lot by watching."
.. -Yogi Berra-
Kenneth D Westfall on sun 16 feb 97
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:53:51 EST Gerry Barbe
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
> > Richard
>> unable to spot a microfracture or predict a dunt and
>> remembering the woman who got $4,000,000 from McDonald's for
>spilling
>> coffee on herself while driving
>
> This case was closely followed by the CBC. Apparently the
>woman
>was totally justified in bringing a suit against McDonald's.
>McDonald's, and most fast food chains, serve their coffee almost at
>boiling temperature. They say this is for taste but many don't agree
>on this point. The woman in question is elderly, when the coffee
>spilled on her lap she suffered second degree and third degree burns.
> The suit was to force McDonald's to lower the temperature at
>which
>they serve their coffee to prevent someone else from being seriously
>injured. And I think it worked. It's difficult handling those
>flimsy paper cups filled with a liquid hot enough to cause severe
>burns...................Marilyn
>
>
>Marilyn & Gerry Barbe
>Ailsa Craig, On, CANADA
>gbarbe@julian.uwo.ca
>
Also the news coverage failed to point out that this was punitive money.
That is it was intended to punish the company not just fill the woman's
bank account. It was not until after the hubb bub died down before it
was pointed out the company sell more than a 1,000,000 dollars in coffee
sells, daily. Looking at the total sell in a year for the company
4,000,000 was a drop in the bucket and amounted to less than a slap on
the wrist. Second and third degree scars do not go away over night. The
woman only fault was doing what we all have done, eat and drink in the
car.
Kenneth
If your going to throw stones be sure to break glass.
P. F. Shelor on sun 16 feb 97
I purchased a crock pot with a removal crock a couple of months ago. Since
so many products nowadays have cautions and warnings ad infinitum, I pulled
out the instructions to see what kind of warnings and care advice were
included.
The first instruction is to read all instructions. The brochure warns about
cooking in a crock pot if the crock is less than half full. There are also
cautions to wash only in hot soapy water "as the crockery will not withstand
sudden low temperature changes" and "Care should be taken to avoid hitting
the crockery liner against water faucets or any hard surface, as all crockery
(stoneware) can be chipped or broken by a sharp blow." There are still more
warnings about not cooking food in the base without the crock , and to
"Avoid sudden temperature changes, such as adding refrigerated foods into a
heated pot," and "Do not place in or near hot gas or an electric burner, or
in a heated oven," and of course, "Do not touch hot surfaces. Use handles
or knobs," and be sure not to let the cord dangle over the counter or on a
hot burner or in reach of a child, and don't immerse the base in water.
The bottom falling out sounds like something of a freak occurrence to me -
anybody else?
How could anyone know if the crock was defective or if it wore out or if it
had been dropped at some time or otherwise damaged in handling? I wonder if
I would even remember if I had ever plunked my crock down on the counter hard
enough to stress it, but not break it at that moment. The crock that came
with my pot is pretty darned heavy and it seems like it would take a lot of
effort to break it. I even put it in the sink with cool water to finish
cooling it one time before I put it in the refrigerator.
Do we know if this was a crock made by an individual, or was it mass
produced? And does it make a difference?
I wonder if the manufacturer was contacted and what the response was. I also
wonder what she plans to sue for - medical bills and realistic compensation,
or what?
Oh - and by the way - it was a *removable* crockery insert, wasn't it?
FAY & RALPH Loewenthal on sun 16 feb 97
Just a thought that maybe the lady could be at fault if she had heated the
crock pot and then poured in cold water / liquid. This could cause the pot
to crack and when it had hot food in it, the food was heavy enough to
cause it to break once it was lifted. It is extremely difficult to call this one
certainly not the same as the McDonald's case. I am glad I am not the
plaintiff or the judge. All the best Ralph
Robert Kittel on mon 17 feb 97
At 04:25 PM 2/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Do we know if this was a crock made by an individual, or was it mass
>produced? And does it make a difference
No it does not make any difference. Product liability laws are very
specific. Do you manufacture a product and sell it to the public. What
happens if a handle on a mug comes off and the hot liquid ends up in
someones lap? It does not make any difference if that mug was made in a
garage or in a 200,000 square foot factory.
How's your liability insurance?
Charles Williams on mon 17 feb 97
Linda,
I believe you are being wishy-washy about this question. Nothing made by
people will last forever. Also, had this person dropped the crock, put it
through cycles of rapid heating and cooling, etc.? Not everything that
happens is the fault of the manufacturer, whether a person or corporation.
Lawsuits of this type have, in my opinion, resulted in outrageous liability
insurance rates. Lawsuits of this type have forced many small businesses out
of business due to not being able to afford the insurance. Everyone feels bad
when something like this happens! However, should a corporation or person pay
simply because they have liability insurance? This type of bleeding heart
lawsuit has also made billions of dollars for the lawyers who charge
routinely at least 40% of the settlement plus expenses and in some cases
50-60%. This has become the American way, or I should say the United States
of America way. We are the only ones that can change this. I say S_ _ _ W the
lawyers!
One who is tired of the something-for-nothing attitude that has
developed in this country and the lawyers that have created and maintain this
situation!
Stern HQ on tue 18 feb 97
This is Jeni; I have responded to this line before but to the questioning
lawyer. Now I am responding so the entire group can read my message. I
am both a licensed attorney and a potter. I am married to an attorney and
related to several others. I know a majority of the lawyers in our city.
I am outraged at the attitude toward lawyers expressed by so many people
in this line. The attitude is like blaming doctors when someone gets
sick. Lawyers are not the cause of lawsuits. In our American system of
government we have not provided any other mechanism for relief of the
injured when they are injured by someone's negligence or intentional
willingness to produce a dangerous product. For example, the fact that
more of us aren't burned to death in car accidents can be attributed to
product liability law suits brought on behalf of an injured person UNDER
THE LAW OF THE UNITED STATES AS IT STANDS. If you do not like the law as
it stands, do something about it. Talk to legislators, congresspeople,
governors, etc. Lawyers do not regularly get 40% of a personal injury
recovery; the maximum usually is a third and only for those cases which a
lawyer takes on contingency, which means if he or she loses the case
(after spending weeks, months, or even years) he or she gets NOTHING. If
a client doesn't want to pay an hourly fee or can't but wants to sue, then
both the client and the lawyer are taking a gamble on winning the suit.
Defense lawyers get paid whether they win or not.
I could go on and on; I am so frustrated by the self righteous
yammering by people who don't bother to understand our judicial system.
For example, many of you would be totally unwilling to put in the hours
that lawyers and judges put in. Are you aware that a study was done a few
years ago and the average salary of ALL lawyers in the United States was
something around $40,000. Judges are usually of such calibre that they
could make two or three times or more what they are paid to be state
judges and most of them at all levels work hard at their difficult jobs.
We are one of the most complex, sophisticated societies on the face of the
earth. We have none of the homogenaity that many other countries enjoy.
So government at its root is compromise. That does not mean compromise
our values or compromise our ethics; it means compromise between competing
positions to arrive at a fair result. If you do not like a particular
result, please realize that someone has done the best they can do to
arrive at a solution to a problem. And please stop vilifying lawyers.
Just as there are rotten apples in every basket so there are some lawyers
who do not meet the highest levels of ethical conduct. That's life. Not
every member of any profession is the saint people seem to think lawyers
should be. Please remember, that in the increasing complexity of our
evolving society, our laws, solutions to societal problems, are
increasingly complex. We can no longer use the simple laws of an l8th
century agricultural society. If this seems over long, please consider
the message and stop taking out frustrations on one professional group.
You don't vilify all potters when one pot is a disappointment. You only
read the most sensational of results from court cases; the vast majority
of product liability cases, the vast majority of personal injury cases
never see the light of publication. It is a shame that the American
public gets its skewed view of the American system of justice from only
sensational headlines. Please take time to understand our American
system; only then are you qualified to damn it. And only then if you have
a suggestion for improving it. So far nobody has. Jennifer K. Stern,
Esq. Potter.
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Charles Williams wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Linda,
>
> I believe you are being wishy-washy about this question. Nothing made by
> people will last forever. Also, had this person dropped the crock, put it
> through cycles of rapid heating and cooling, etc.? Not everything that
> happens is the fault of the manufacturer, whether a person or corporation.
> Lawsuits of this type have, in my opinion, resulted in outrageous liability
> insurance rates. Lawsuits of this type have forced many small businesses out
> of business due to not being able to afford the insurance. Everyone feels bad
> when something like this happens! However, should a corporation or person pay
> simply because they have liability insurance? This type of bleeding heart
> lawsuit has also made billions of dollars for the lawyers who charge
> routinely at least 40% of the settlement plus expenses and in some cases
> 50-60%. This has become the American way, or I should say the United States
> of America way. We are the only ones that can change this. I say S_ _ _ W the
> lawyers!
>
> One who is tired of the something-for-nothing attitude that has
> developed in this country and the lawyers that have created and maintain this
> situation!
>
Stern HQ on tue 18 feb 97
I believe you are wrong about your assertion that it doesn't make a
difference if a product is made in a garage or a factory. Check your
facts. Jeni
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Robert Kittel wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> At 04:25 PM 2/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> >Do we know if this was a crock made by an individual, or was it mass
> >produced? And does it make a difference
>
>
> No it does not make any difference. Product liability laws are very
> specific. Do you manufacture a product and sell it to the public. What
> happens if a handle on a mug comes off and the hot liquid ends up in
> someones lap? It does not make any difference if that mug was made in a
> garage or in a 200,000 square foot factory.
> How's your liability insurance?
>
Dave and Pat Eitel on tue 18 feb 97
>How's your liability insurance?
According to my agent, product liability insurance is based on annual
sales. I discovered that product liability is inexpensive and it seems
everyone who sells to the public should have it.
Later...Dave
Dave Eitel
Cedar Creek Pottery
Cedarburg, WI
pots@cedarcreekpottery.com
http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
LINDA BLOSSOM on tue 18 feb 97
Well Charles, I guess in this case I cannot take a firm stand. Call me
wishy washy but part of my problem is trying to see everyones' side. But
the rest of my problem is with a lack of information. I take stands and
express opinions (a brave thing to do in the politically correct town I
live in) when I feel I have the information to back up my opinions. But
there is a lot I don't know here. I do think lawyers and a greedy
clientele have created a messy thing, however, I would hate to go back to
the times when large and not so large companies got away with anything and
everything from labor abuse to consumer abuse. We just seem to have a
culture that doesn't know when to quit. When companies actually discuss
whether it would be cheaper to pay off lawsuits for deaths or make the
modification (ie the pinto gas tank), we do need to have something to
discourage this type of behavior.
Linda
Ithaca, NY
Robert Kittel on tue 18 feb 97
Oh, i see, so now when some attorney comes pounding on my door, screaming
that the product i sold to his client was the cause of injury i can say
"sorry, i made that in my garage, you can't sue me".
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I believe you are wrong about your assertion that it doesn't make a
>difference if a product is made in a garage or a factory. Check your
>facts. Jeni
>On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Robert Kittel wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> At 04:25 PM 2/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>
>> >Do we know if this was a crock made by an individual, or was it mass
>> >produced? And does it make a difference
>>
>>
>> No it does not make any difference. Product liability laws are very
>> specific. Do you manufacture a product and sell it to the public. What
>> happens if a handle on a mug comes off and the hot liquid ends up in
>> someones lap? It does not make any difference if that mug was made in a
>> garage or in a 200,000 square foot factory.
>> How's your liability insurance?
>>
>
Tony Hansen on wed 19 feb 97
JR wrote:
I understand that many people view my
profession negatively, and I admit that the perception is sometimes justified.
However, the vast majority of the attorneys that I know are good people that
do their best within the limits of the law to promote the interests of their
client. I'm sure clients expect nothing less.
Personally, I work very hard to try to help my clients, not to try to m
money off of the misfortunes of others. In the present case, my client was
severly burned when the bottom fell out of her crockpot. If she caused the
failure because of something she did she should not, and will not, recover any
damages from the manufacturer. However, if a manufacturer sold a product that
was defective, then that manufacturer should be held responsible. The wisdom
of such a policy is obvious; if a manufacturer has no responsibility for the
safety of the products that it produces, then innocent consumers will suffer
while manufacturers look for additional ways to cut costs. By holding
manufacturers responsible for the safety of their products, manufacturers must
consider the quality and safety of what they produce, not merely the profit
that they will make through sales.
Not only does this policy benefit consumers, it also benefits conscient
workers and craftsmen who take pride in their work. Responsibility for the
finished product deters a manufacturer from obtaining parts of its product
(such as the crock portion of a crockpot) from low-paying third world
countries that may ignore quality control.
I believe that Mr. Gralnik and Mr. Lawrence may have a different perspe
on the liability of a manufacturer if they or one of their family members were
to have the misfortune of a serious injury as the result of a defective
product. In my experience, I have yet to find a client who would be willing
to re-live their experience in exchange for the damages they may be able to
recover.
Corinne P. Null on wed 19 feb 97
>Dave Eitel,Cedar Creek Pottery wrote
>According to my agent, product liability insurance is based on annual
>sales. I discovered that product liability is inexpensive and it seems
>everyone who sells to the public should have it.
Dave,
I'd love to get it but am afraid of the cost - I don't produce much (yet?),
but feel vulnerable. What insurance company are you using, and what do you
consider inexpensive?
Thanks,
Corinne
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