jonathan byler on wed 9 dec 09
We had a fabulous metallic black, but it doesn't want to cooperate
anymore. lots of bubbles blistering pinholes, etc. i tried to
reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to no
avail... I can't blame the GB, because it isn't causing problems in
any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty much behaving
as they are supposed to over a wide range of temperatures. we try to
fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10 is
touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the bottom.
varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a difference.
we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the sulfury stuff has
burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since the kiln
stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
our claybody is roughly (by volume)
goldart 12
ap green/harbison walker fire clay 6
redart 1
48 mesh grog 1
this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
g-200 feldspar 70
GB 10
EPK 10
Flint 10
________________
Black Iron Oxide 4
Copper Carb 3
cobalt carb 2
the fritted recipe was:
g-200 68.7
frit 3195 13
epk 8.5
flint 7.5
dolomite 1.8
whiting .5
______________
same colorants as above +
bentonite 1
this came out when it worked right as a goreous black/gunmetal grey
metallic slightly glossy, but not glassy. anyone have anything to
try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't break
brown where thin?
thx,
jon
Steve Slatin on wed 9 dec 09
Jonathan --
Did the change in outcome on this glaze by
any chance occur with a new bag of G-200?
If so, had you reformulated for the difference
between the 'old' G-200 and the new?
Steve Slatin --=3D20
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, jonathan byler wrote:
> From: jonathan byler
> Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 12:00 PM
> We had a fabulous metallic black, but
> it doesn't want to cooperate
> anymore.=3DA0 lots of bubbles blistering pinholes,
> etc.=3DA0 i tried to
> reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to
> no
> avail...=3DA0 I can't blame the GB, because it isn't
> causing problems in
> any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty
> much behaving
> as they are supposed to over a wide range of
> temperatures.=3DA0 we try to
> fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10
> is
> touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the
> bottom.
> varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a
> difference.
> we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the
> sulfury stuff has
> burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since
> the kiln
> stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
>=3D20
> our claybody is roughly (by volume)
>=3D20
> goldart=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 12
> ap green/harbison walker fire clay=3DA0
> =3DA0=3DA0=3DA06
> redart=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA01
> 48 mesh grog=3DA0 =3DA0 1
>=3D20
> this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
>=3D20
> g-200 feldspar=3DA0 =3DA0 70
> GB=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA010
> EPK=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA010
> Flint=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 10
> ________________
> Black Iron Oxide=3DA0=3DA0=3DA04
> Copper Carb=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA03
> cobalt carb=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 2
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> the fritted recipe was:
>=3D20
> g-200=3DA0 68.7
> frit 3195=3DA0 =3DA0 13
> epk=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 8.5
> flint=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 7.5
> dolomite=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 1.8
> whiting=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 .5
> ______________
>=3D20
> same colorants as above +
> bentonite=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 1
>=3D20
>=3D20
> this came out when it worked right as a goreous
> black/gunmetal grey
> metallic=3DA0 slightly glossy, but not glassy.=3DA0
> anyone have anything to
> try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't
> break
> brown where thin?
>=3D20
> thx,
> jon
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Loren JOnes on wed 9 dec 09
Do you want it shiny or matte. A good matte metallic black is Toshiko Matte
F4 37.4
Cornwall Stone 18.7
Whiting 18.7
EPK 18.7
Zinc Ox. 6.5
add:
Red Iron 20!%
Manganese Diox 1%
Cobalt Carb 5!%
As I remember this was kinda slippery, tended to run if applied too thick
but the results were very cool. I made some Industrial mugs with it on the =
exterior.
http://www.lojoclayworks.com
________________________________
From: jonathan byler
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 1:00:07 PM
Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
We had a fabulous metallic black, but it doesn't want to cooperate
anymore. lots of bubbles blistering pinholes, etc. i tried to
reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to no
avail... I can't blame the GB, because it isn't causing problems in
any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty much behaving
as they are supposed to over a wide range of temperatures. we try to
fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10 is
touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the bottom.
varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a difference.
we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the sulfury stuff has
burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since the kiln
stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
our claybody is roughly (by volume)
goldart 12
ap green/harbison walker fire clay 6
redart 1
48 mesh grog 1
this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
g-200 feldspar 70
GB 10
EPK 10
Flint 10
________________
Black Iron Oxide 4
Copper Carb 3
cobalt carb 2
the fritted recipe was:
g-200 68.7
frit 3195 13
epk 8.5
flint 7.5
dolomite 1.8
whiting .5
______________
same colorants as above +
bentonite 1
this came out when it worked right as a goreous black/gunmetal grey
metallic slightly glossy, but not glassy. anyone have anything to
try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't break
brown where thin?
thx,
jon
jonathan byler on thu 10 dec 09
didn't know there was a difference, and we haven't had any issues with
other glazes... do you or any one else have an analysis of the "new"
g-200 potash feldspar?
On Dec 9, 2009, at 7:20 PM, Steve Slatin wrote:
> Jonathan --
>
> Did the change in outcome on this glaze by
> any chance occur with a new bag of G-200?
> If so, had you reformulated for the difference
> between the 'old' G-200 and the new?
>
>
> Steve Slatin --
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/9/09, jonathan byler wrote:
>
>> From: jonathan byler
>> Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
>> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 12:00 PM
>> We had a fabulous metallic black, but
>> it doesn't want to cooperate
>> anymore. lots of bubbles blistering pinholes,
>> etc. i tried to
>> reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to
>> no
>> avail... I can't blame the GB, because it isn't
>> causing problems in
>> any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty
>> much behaving
>> as they are supposed to over a wide range of
>> temperatures. we try to
>> fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10
>> is
>> touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the
>> bottom.
>> varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a
>> difference.
>> we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the
>> sulfury stuff has
>> burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since
>> the kiln
>> stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
>>
>> our claybody is roughly (by volume)
>>
>> goldart 12
>> ap green/harbison walker fire clay
>> 6
>> redart 1
>> 48 mesh grog 1
>>
>> this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
>>
>> g-200 feldspar 70
>> GB
>> 10
>> EPK
>> 10
>> Flint
>> 10
>> ________________
>> Black Iron Oxide 4
>> Copper Carb 3
>> cobalt carb 2
>>
>>
>>
>> the fritted recipe was:
>>
>> g-200 68.7
>> frit 3195 13
>> epk 8.5
>> flint 7.5
>> dolomite 1.8
>> whiting .5
>> ______________
>>
>> same colorants as above +
>> bentonite 1
>>
>>
>> this came out when it worked right as a goreous
>> black/gunmetal grey
>> metallic slightly glossy, but not glassy.
>> anyone have anything to
>> try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't
>> break
>> brown where thin?
>>
>> thx,
>> jon
>>
>
>
>
jonathan byler on thu 10 dec 09
tony,
that reminds me a bit of St. John's black. also a beauty, but at $87
or so a batch a little pricey for the school setting... and Loren,
thanks for the recipe, I will have to try it (without the manganese),
and see how it goes. I have to be careful with it, though because we
have a bunch of amateurs here who don't listen along with our bunch of
great students. runny glazes plus hearing/comprehension impaired
students =3D tons of extra work for you know who...
On Dec 10, 2009, at 7:49 AM, tony clennell wrote:
> One of the most beautiful blacks we have used is something I call
> Mirror Black. It is a beautiful black that is also very nice with
> salt/soda cause it turns Noxema Blue where it gets salt and then the
> mirror black where it ain't
> Alberta Slip 80
> Nep Syn 20
> Cobalt oxide 7%
> It's an expensive glaze but a beauty.
> Good luck.
> tc
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Loren JOnes
> wrote:
>> Do you want it shiny or matte. A good matte metallic black is
>> Toshiko Matte
>>
>> F4 37.4
>> Cornwall Stone 18.7
>> Whiting 18.7
>> EPK 18.7
>> Zinc Ox. 6.5
>>
>> add:
>> Red Iron 20!%
>> Manganese Diox 1%
>> Cobalt Carb 5!%
>> As I remember this was kinda slippery, tended to run if applied too
>> thick
>> but the results were very cool. I made some Industrial mugs with it
>> on the exterior.
>> http://www.lojoclayworks.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: jonathan byler
>> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 1:00:07 PM
>> Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
>>
>> We had a fabulous metallic black, but it doesn't want to cooperate
>> anymore. lots of bubbles blistering pinholes, etc. i tried to
>> reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to no
>> avail... I can't blame the GB, because it isn't causing problems in
>> any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty much
>> behaving
>> as they are supposed to over a wide range of temperatures. we try to
>> fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10 is
>> touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the bottom.
>> varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a difference.
>> we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the sulfury stuff
>> has
>> burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since the kiln
>> stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
>>
>> our claybody is roughly (by volume)
>>
>> goldart 12
>> ap green/harbison walker fire clay 6
>> redart 1
>> 48 mesh grog 1
>>
>> this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
>>
>> g-200 feldspar 70
>> GB 10
>> EPK 10
>> Flint 10
>> ________________
>> Black Iron Oxide 4
>> Copper Carb 3
>> cobalt carb 2
>>
>>
>>
>> the fritted recipe was:
>>
>> g-200 68.7
>> frit 3195 13
>> epk 8.5
>> flint 7.5
>> dolomite 1.8
>> whiting .5
>> ______________
>>
>> same colorants as above +
>> bentonite 1
>>
>>
>> this came out when it worked right as a goreous black/gunmetal grey
>> metallic slightly glossy, but not glassy. anyone have anything to
>> try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't break
>> brown where thin?
>>
>> thx,
>> jon
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://sourcherrypottery.com
> http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
> Workshop Feb 5,6,7 Mudbucket Pottery
> Myrtle Beach, SC
> info@mudbucketpottery.com
tony clennell on thu 10 dec 09
One of the most beautiful blacks we have used is something I call
Mirror Black. It is a beautiful black that is also very nice with
salt/soda cause it turns Noxema Blue where it gets salt and then the
mirror black where it ain't
Alberta Slip 80
Nep Syn 20
Cobalt oxide 7%
It's an expensive glaze but a beauty.
Good luck.
tc
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Loren JOnes wrote:
> Do you want it shiny or matte. A good matte metallic black is Toshiko Mat=
te
>
> F4 37.4
> Cornwall Stone 18.7
> Whiting 18.7
> EPK 18.7
> Zinc Ox. 6.5
>
> add:
> Red Iron 20!%
> Manganese Diox 1%
> Cobalt Carb 5!%
> As I remember this was kinda slippery, tended to run if applied too thick
> but the results were very cool. I made some Industrial mugs with it on th=
e exterior.
> http://www.lojoclayworks.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jonathan byler
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 1:00:07 PM
> Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
>
> We had a fabulous metallic black, but it doesn't want to cooperate
> anymore. lots of bubbles blistering pinholes, etc. i tried to
> reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley borate, but to no
> avail... I can't blame the GB, because it isn't causing problems in
> any of the other glazes we are using that are all pretty much behaving
> as they are supposed to over a wide range of temperatures. we try to
> fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often times the 10 is
> touching/flat on top, while not all the way down on the bottom.
> varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to make a difference.
> we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all the sulfury stuff has
> burnt out by the end-or at least the vast majority, since the kiln
> stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
>
> our claybody is roughly (by volume)
>
> goldart 12
> ap green/harbison walker fire clay 6
> redart 1
> 48 mesh grog 1
>
> this is what we were using for the metallic black glaze.
>
> g-200 feldspar 70
> GB 10
> EPK 10
> Flint 10
> ________________
> Black Iron Oxide 4
> Copper Carb 3
> cobalt carb 2
>
>
>
> the fritted recipe was:
>
> g-200 68.7
> frit 3195 13
> epk 8.5
> flint 7.5
> dolomite 1.8
> whiting .5
> ______________
>
> same colorants as above +
> bentonite 1
>
>
> this came out when it worked right as a goreous black/gunmetal grey
> metallic slightly glossy, but not glassy. anyone have anything to
> try that doesn't have manganese and barium and that doesn't break
> brown where thin?
>
> thx,
> jon
>
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Workshop Feb 5,6,7 Mudbucket Pottery
Myrtle Beach, SC
info@mudbucketpottery.com
James Freeman on fri 11 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:02 PM, jonathan byler wrote=
:
didn't know there was a difference, and we haven't had any issues with
other glazes... do you or any one else have an analysis of the "new"
g-200 potash feldspar?
Last year a friend asked me for help solving a glaze problem involving G200
spar. I did some research for him. I dug through my records, located the
email, and thought I would share a slightly redacted version. If anyone
wants the supporting documentation mentioned in the email, just let me know
off list and I will forward the pdf files. If a lot of folks want the
documents, I will upload the files to the clayart download page on my
website:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
After you told me about your friend's problem with the changes in G200
feldspar, I did some research on the new G200-HP (I don't even use the
stuff, but I got curious). You might want to forward this email to him, as
it solves his dilemma.
In a nutshell, the original deposit of G200 spar ran out many years ago.
They opened a new deposit, but it had a much higher potash content and a
much lower sodium content. To compensate for this, they blended 70% of the
new deposit with 30% soda spar to get a similar analysis to the old, and
continued to sell this blend as G200 without telling their customers about
the change. Now, with fuel prices so high, the new owners have stopped
blending in the soda spar, and are selling the new deposit straight, callin=
g
it G200-HP. I have attached the supporting documentation, including
chemical analyses of the old G200 and the new G200-HP.
Your friend can simply bulk blend 70% G200-HP with 30% soda spar and call i=
t
"G200". Alternatively, he can recalculate his recipes to use 70% of the
original amount of G200 plus 30% of that amount in soda spar. For example,
if the batch called for 50% G200, he would now use 35% G200-HP (.50 x .70)
plus 15% soda spar (.50 x .30). Perhaps simplest of all, he could always
try subbing Custer spar for the G200, as the differences between the two ar=
e
almost insignificant. G200 had a tiny bit less silica and a tiny bit more
alumina, plus a trace more calcium and potassium than Custer, so unless a
glaze was right on the edge crazing or viscosity-wise at a given cone, the
differences should be imperceptible. I have also attached the most recent
analysis of Custer feldspar to support these statements. Of course, after
you complete Ron's glaze calc course, you will be in a position to easily
recalculate the entire glaze formula to use Custer spar and still match
precisely the analysis of the original glaze that used G200. Ingredient
substitution is the main power of glaze calculation. If you don't want to
wait for Ron's class, I can show you how to do this.
The change to G200 can actually be looked upon as a benefit rather than a
problem. Since the new G200-HP has 15% K (potassium) versus the 10% of
Custer and the old G200, we can now experiment with a whole new field of
very high potassium glazes without having to resort to soluble sources of K
such as pearl ash, and without introducing too mush silica and alumina whic=
h
would come with simply adding more feldspar. Have fun! As that extremely
annoying saying goes, "It's all good".
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Steve Slatin on fri 11 dec 09
It's on line at the Standard website.
Steve Slatin --=3D20
--- On Thu, 12/10/09, jonathan byler wrote:
> From: jonathan byler
> Subject: Re: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black recipe
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 8:02 PM
> didn't know there was a difference,
> and we haven't had any issues with
> other glazes...=3DA0 do you or any one else have an
> analysis of the "new"
> g-200 potash feldspar?
>=3D20
>=3D20
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 7:20 PM, Steve Slatin wrote:
>=3D20
> > Jonathan --
> >
> > Did the change in outcome on this glaze by
> > any chance occur with a new bag of G-200?
> > If so, had you reformulated for the difference
> > between the 'old' G-200 and the new?
> >
> >
> > Steve Slatin --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 12/9/09, jonathan byler
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: jonathan byler
> >> Subject: looking for good ^9-10 metallic black
> recipe
> >> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 12:00 PM
> >> We had a fabulous metallic black, but
> >> it doesn't want to cooperate
> >> anymore.=3DA0 lots of bubbles blistering
> pinholes,
> >> etc.=3DA0 i tried to
> >> reformulate using a frit instead of gerstley
> borate, but to
> >> no
> >> avail...=3DA0 I can't blame the GB, because it
> isn't
> >> causing problems in
> >> any of the other glazes we are using that are all
> pretty
> >> much behaving
> >> as they are supposed to over a wide range of
> >> temperatures.=3DA0 we try to
> >> fire to ^9 with the 10 bent halfway, but often
> times the 10
> >> is
> >> touching/flat on top, while not all the way down
> on the
> >> bottom.
> >> varying firing schedules and holds don't seem to
> make a
> >> difference.
> >> we bisque to ^04 with all the peeps open and all
> the
> >> sulfury stuff has
> >> burnt out by the end-or at least the vast
> majority, since
> >> the kiln
> >> stops visibly smoking well ahead of then.
> >>
> >> our claybody is roughly (by volume)
> >>
> >> goldart=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 12
> >> ap green/harbison walker fire clay
> >>=3DA0 =3DA0 6
> >> redart=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA01
> >> 48 mesh grog=3DA0 =3DA0 1
> >>
> >> this is what we were using for the metallic black
> glaze.
> >>
> >> g-200 feldspar=3DA0 =3DA0 70
> >> GB
> >>=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 10
> >> EPK
> >>=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 10
> >> Flint
> >>=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA010
> >> ________________
> >> Black Iron Oxide=3DA0=3DA0=3DA04
> >> Copper Carb=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0=3DA0=3DA03
> >> cobalt carb=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0 2
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> the fritted recipe was:
> >>
> >> g-200=3DA0 68.7
> >> frit 3195=3DA0 =3DA0 13
> >> epk=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 8.5
> >> flint=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> =3DA0 7.5
> >> dolomite=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 1.8
> >> whiting=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 .5
> >> ______________
> >>
> >> same colorants as above +
> >> bentonite=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 1
> >>
> >>
> >> this came out when it worked right as a goreous
> >> black/gunmetal grey
> >> metallic=3DA0 slightly glossy, but not glassy.
> >> anyone have anything to
> >> try that doesn't have manganese and barium and
> that doesn't
> >> break
> >> brown where thin?
> >>
> >> thx,
> >> jon
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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