Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp on sat 31 oct 98
To: clayart@LSV.UKY.EDU
From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp
Subject: HELP-Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
Dear Folks,
During a recent refinance my insurance salesman (yes, a customer, too) took
pictures of my kilns in my studio to add a rider on the homeowners policy.
The Insurance Company went ballistic! My policy is cancelled in 30 days. I
don't want to spend the equity we got on remodeling the studio- we need a
new roof.
Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house
by one wall,which is brick.
Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
The clock is ticking. I have 27 days.
Thanks for any help in advance.
Pamela
John H. Rodgers on mon 2 nov 98
-- [ From: John H. Rodgers * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Pamela, I believe that for every problem there are solutions, ranked zero at
one end to 10 at the other, with ten being the best.
I would first tell the insurance you don't feel their response is reasonable
, nor the requirement to move viable for financial reasons. Tell them that
you want your place to be as safe as possible, and are willing to take steps
to make it so, within reason. That moving is not the solution. Ask them for
recommendations in construction to satisfy their need to reduce risk. If it
is not forthcoming, find out whether or not your place complies with the
various building codes. Check with the local building inspector on how your
place stacks up against the codes.Get the electrical inspector out there and
get him to sign off on it, and then get the fire inspectors out there and
get their professional opinion and recommendations. Get it all in writing.
Then go back to the insurance company.
You can't shortcut in this fight. If you are going to battle with the
insurance company you cannot leave them a leg to stand on. They are playing
their actuarial tables -- looking at the risk --- and playing it safe. They
want to make it perfectly safe, and they want you to pay.
Once you have all the professionals on board with you that you meet code and
ordinance, if the insurance company still hassles you, tell them you have
done it by the book, and you are not going to haggle, you are going to the
Insurance Commissioner. You will in all likelihood get service without
further ado. If not, you still may have to try and get another insurance co.
while you take the case to the commissioner. But even so, don't let it drop.
NEVER quit. Big companies don't like real hassles any better than you do,
witness most big corporations settle suits out of court, and they will choke
on this one.
I would bet that most insurance companies don't have a clue as to what
electric kiln operation is all about. If proper precautions are taken,
operation of an electric kiln is less dangerous than the operation of your
gas hot water heater.
I worked for an engineering firm and we tested gas hot water heaters. In a
test setup of a typical gas hotwater heater in a typical setting in an
average home, I saw the door blown off the utility closet when the unit
exploded, and the house set on fire. If you keep the combustibles (paper and
the like) away from your kiln, it is not going to cause a fire. And if you
put a safety fence around the kiln no one will accidentally get burned by
bumping against it. If it is vented properly it is not going to asphyxiate
any one either, or intoxify them from the fumes. And all that is reasonable
stuff to protect oneself and others.
You may have to put up a firewall for your ceiling...like two layers of fire
-rated gypsum wallboard, or something, to protect that wooden floor
construction overhead, but probably nothing more dramatic. When I built
houses way back when, the wall between the garage and the main house was
always double rocked, all the way up to the roof. That was a fire barrier to
protect the house if the car or flammables caught fire and burned through
the wall or ceiling. The fire would not go into the house. Reasonable steps
for reasonable protection. Double rock the ceiling to protect the floor
above.
The people adjudicating the case are probably as ignorant as stumps when it
comes to kilns and clay. Educate them. That is your best defense and offense
.. Get your agent out there to assess the situation.
Question. The insurance co. just wanted to cancel the policy...not raise
the premium to cover the risk????
GO GET' UM GIRL!!!!
John Rodgers
In Alabama.....willing to take on just about any giant....always gave as
good as I got...won some, lost some...but never did quit until the fat lady
did sing!!! -------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Date: Saturday, 31-Oct-98 10:36 AM
From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp \ Internet: (kclaughed@mindspring.com) To
: Multiple recipients of list CLAYART \ Internet: (clayart@lsv.uky.edu)
Subject: Help!, Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
To: clayart@LSV.UKY.EDU
From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp
Subject: HELP-Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
Dear Folks,
During a recent refinance my insurance salesman (yes, a customer, too) took
pictures of my kilns in my studio to add a rider on the homeowners policy.
The Insurance Company went ballistic! My policy is cancelled in 30 days. I
don't want to spend the equity we got on remodeling the studio- we need a
new roof.
Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house by
one wall,which is brick.
Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
The clock is ticking. I have 27 days.
Thanks for any help in advance.
Pamela
-------- REPLY, End of original message --------
--
Jennifer Boyer on mon 2 nov 98
What kind of kilns do you have: gas or electric? My insurance company had no
problem with my electric kiln in my basement studio: I pay commercial rates
for the studio. But they wanted to charge commercial rates on the whole house
if I attached the gas kiln to my basement studio. We couldn't afford that so
I've been trudging through the rain and snow to my gas kiln shed, 75 feet
from the house for 24 years. Definitley check on other insurance companies
if you only have electric kilns. Tell them it's just a glorified oven!!
Jennifer, getting the snow shovel ready
Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> To: clayart@LSV.UKY.EDU
> From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp
> Subject: HELP-Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
>
> Dear Folks,
>
> During a recent refinance my insurance salesman (yes, a customer, too) took
> pictures of my kilns in my studio to add a rider on the homeowners policy.
> The Insurance Company went ballistic! My policy is cancelled in 30 days. I
> don't want to spend the equity we got on remodeling the studio- we need a
> new roof.
>
> Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
> with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
> home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
> entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
> fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
> and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
> been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
> great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house
> by one wall,which is brick.
>
> Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
> almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
>
> The clock is ticking. I have 27 days.
>
> Thanks for any help in advance.
>
> Pamela
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Jennifer Boyer jboyer@plainfield.bypass.com
Thistle Hill Pottery
Vermont USA
http://www.vermontcrafts.com/members/JenniBoy892.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Kirk Morrison on mon 2 nov 98
In a message dated 10/31/98 10:51:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kclaughed@mindspring.com writes:
> Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
> almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
Try other insurance companies and make sure all meets the fire codes, and call
the insurance commision where you live and find out, if they are allowed to
automatically exclude you if you meet the fire code because of a kiln.
Kirk
Bonnie Staffel on mon 2 nov 98
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> To: clayart@LSV.UKY.EDU
> From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp
> Subject: HELP-Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
>
> Dear Folks,
>
> During a recent refinance my insurance salesman (yes, a customer, too) took
> pictures of my kilns in my studio to add a rider on the homeowners policy.
> The Insurance Company went ballistic! My policy is cancelled in 30 days. I
> don't want to spend the equity we got on remodeling the studio- we need a
> new roof.
>
> Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
> with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
> home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
> entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
> fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
> and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
> been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
> great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house
> by one wall,which is brick.
>
> Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
> almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
>
> The clock is ticking. I have 27 days.
>
> Thanks for any help in advance.
>
>
> Pamela
>
> Nov. 1, 1998
Dear Pamela,
It happened to us. Out studio was in a large wood
chicken barn. For eighteen years we gave the
insurance company $3000 per year for fire
coverage. Our kilns were in that studio for a
number of years, then moved them to an addition
which was drywalled, wood roof and cement floor.
The insurance company came in and said we had to
drywall the entire studio. We had built-in
shelving around the studio and would have had to
take down all of them to do this, in addition to
putting in a drywall ceiling.
We decided to do without the
insurance coverage. We hadn't had a fire in all
that time. But since this is your home you cannot do without this insurance.
Will you insurance company settle for drywall or
other fireproof material on
the ceiling? And how about an exhaust fan to take
out some of the excess heat? I hope this may help.
Bonnie Staffel
-----
See the original message at http://www.egroups.com/list/clayart/?start=34310
--
Free e-mail group hosting at http://www.eGroups.com/
Mary H.T. Yochum on mon 2 nov 98
>
>Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
>with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
>home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
>entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
>fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
>and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
>been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
>great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house
>by one wall,which is brick.
>
>Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
>almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
>
Pamela,
The problem is most likely the ceiling (floor) above you. When I installed
my basement studio years ago I had to place a fire barrier dry wall (sheet
rock) over the entire ceilings in the 1300 sq ft.foot studio, not just over
the kilns, but this was to meet the Colorado building and fire codes, then
I had no problems with insurance. The studio was below my commercial retail
space also, not a residence. That could be more of a problem. Also check
codes for proper ventilation. Good luck.
Marty Yochum
Kathi LeSueur on tue 3 nov 98
When I returned to Ann Arbor from Texas in 1978 Allstate refused to reinstate
my homeowners policy from a fire policy even though I had move my studio and
kilns out to the garage.
I went to a reliable INDEPENDENT insurance agent who also dealt in commercial
lines. Since that time I have been insured by CNA though my indepent agent. I
have a gas kiln in a building attached to the studio. Firecode drywall lined
with a large hood and saftey equipment that will shut down the kiln in the
event of a power failure.
I suggest you look to an independent agent.
Kathi LeSueur
Ray Carlton on thu 5 nov 98
as long as you conform to all local regulations insurance cannot be
withheld..I would try somebody else..you may want to consider an increase
in premiums
At 11:18 02/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> To: clayart@LSV.UKY.EDU
>> From: Pamela & Evan Kohler-Camp
>> Subject: HELP-Homeowners Insurance Cancelled
>>
>> Dear Folks,
>>
>> During a recent refinance my insurance salesman (yes, a customer, too) took
>> pictures of my kilns in my studio to add a rider on the homeowners policy.
>> The Insurance Company went ballistic! My policy is cancelled in 30 days. I
>> don't want to spend the equity we got on remodeling the studio- we need a
>> new roof.
>>
>> Here's the stats-- My studio is in our basement. All walls are cement block
>> with poured cement floor. The ceiling is wood because it's our floor in the
>> home living space. We have smoke alarms located near and throughout the
>> entire basement. No flammables are allowed to stay near the kilns.I have a
>> fire extinguisher nearby. We lived in a double-wide trailer for ten years
>> and are parenoid about becoming crispy critters. This is a company we've
>> been with over 20 years. They want us to move everything outdoors. I have a
>> great space that can be converted, but it is again connected to the house
>> by one wall,which is brick.
>>
>> Anybody out there had this happen? Any arguments I might use to sway the
>> almighty Big Brother Insurance Gods?
>>
>> The clock is ticking. I have 27 days.
>>
>> Thanks for any help in advance.
>>
>>
>> Pamela
>>
>> Nov. 1, 1998
>
>Dear Pamela,
>
>It happened to us. Out studio was in a large wood
> chicken barn. For eighteen years we gave the
> insurance company $3000 per year for fire
> coverage. Our kilns were in that studio for a
> number of years, then moved them to an addition
> which was drywalled, wood roof and cement floor.
> The insurance company came in and said we had to
> drywall the entire studio. We had built-in
> shelving around the studio and would have had to
> take down all of them to do this, in addition to
> putting in a drywall ceiling.
>
>We decided to do without the
>insurance coverage. We hadn't had a fire in all
>that time. But since this is your home you cannot do without this insurance.
>
>Will you insurance company settle for drywall or
>other fireproof material on
>the ceiling? And how about an exhaust fan to take
>out some of the excess heat? I hope this may help.
>
>Bonnie Staffel
>
>
>
>-----
>See the original message at http://www.egroups.com/list/clayart/?start=34310
>--
>Free e-mail group hosting at http://www.eGroups.com/
>
cheers Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
Tom Wirt on thu 5 nov 98
>>>>It happened to us. Out studio was in a large wood
chicken barn. For eighteen years we gave the
insurance company $3000 per year for fire
coverage.
These numbers blow me away. When we first started the pottery 4 years ago, we
quoted several sources, all of which were in the $800 range per year for
liability, (product and personal), fire coverage on all pottery related
buildings and general business insurance.
Just recently we switched to Illinois Farmers because they would now write home
business insurance. along with home and auto.
Our business bill is now about $650 per year for the same coverage. There may
some concern if your studio is attached to your home. Or maybe your not getting
a quote for business insurance....which you MUST have since if you're just using
homeowners to cover your pottery, you are probably not covered (if I read the
Karen Karnes tragedy, that's the implication I get).
Tom
amy parker on thu 5 nov 98
Pamela -
Sounds like your insurance company is woefully ignorant, unless you have
fuel-burning kilns and not electric as I interpreted. Find out if there is
a single person you can talk to, or if they can show you something in
writing that would cause them to not insure you. Send them copies
of the manufacturer's manuals, showing the parts about safe installation.
Call your state insurance commissioner's office.
Insurance companies are known to get a case of the Ass from time to time - I
got cancelled one time because I was robbed! Just once! Have your agent
go to bat for you!
Good luck!!! Meanwhile, start calling other agents - try one who represents
many different companies.
amy parker Lithonia, GA
amyp@sd-software.com
eden@sover.net on fri 13 nov 98
Probably it is too late for this to help Pamela but just for the books,
recently I was talking with my insurer about increased business
coverage...have stashed the posts people sent about better coverage because
I need it......and as a result I got a call from the agent with the
underwriter on the line as well ready to cancel me. I told them for
heaven's sake, I have the same kiln that every school has. If its safe
enough for the classrooms it must be safe enough for you. That gave the
agent the argument he needed to convince the underwriter and there on the
spot it was resolved in my favor. So in future if somebody is called out
on that here is one argument that worked once.
For those with insurance you're pleased with, I am curious as to whether a
studio visit was part of the drill.
Eleanora
.............
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net
"Can love, through the exercise of art, overcome death?" ---SalmanRushdie
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