David Bogus on thu 2 sep 04
Hello,
My name is David Bogus, I just started a teaching position at Green
Mountain College in Poultney, VT. We are a small Envirornmentals Studies
college with just over 600 students. It's a very small school to say the
least. Our Ceramics facility is in need of a clay mixer, preferable a
Soldner mixer. Our budget simply cannot afford a new mixer at 5,000$. I was
wondering if anyone was interested in donating one, selling a used one, or
offering a mixer a dicount price. If you have any information
regarding this matter please contact me:
David Bogus
Green Mountain College
1 College Circle
Poultney, VT 05764
1-802-287-8252
bogusd@greenmtn.edu
Thanks for your consideration and help
Dave Bogus
Eric Suchman on thu 2 sep 04
Anyone have one on the west coast, cheap, please ket me know.
Eric in Oceanside
> From: David Bogus
> Reply-To: Clayart
> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:42:49 -0400
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
> Hello,
>
> My name is David Bogus, I just started a teaching position at Green
> Mountain College in Poultney, VT. We are a small Envirornmentals Studies
> college with just over 600 students. It's a very small school to say the
> least. Our Ceramics facility is in need of a clay mixer, preferable a
> Soldner mixer. Our budget simply cannot afford a new mixer at 5,000$. I was
> wondering if anyone was interested in donating one, selling a used one, or
> offering a mixer a dicount price. If you have any information
> regarding this matter please contact me:
>
> David Bogus
> Green Mountain College
> 1 College Circle
> Poultney, VT 05764
> 1-802-287-8252
> bogusd@greenmtn.edu
>
> Thanks for your consideration and help
> Dave Bogus
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Vince Pitelka on fri 3 sep 04
Those who have posted requests for a used Soldner mixer are probably
realizing that the people who have them NEVER get rid of them. They are the
ultimate claymixer, and although I suppose there are occasionally situations
where someone is shutting down a studio and getting rid of one, that is a
very rare circumstance. When they do come up, someone gobbles them up very
quick.
Aside from the studio going out of business, who would every get rid of one?
They are the best available. With proper maintenance, they last forever.
They have been improved over the years, so the new ones are better than the
early ones.
Yes, it is a lot of money, but you get what yo pay for. You would do best
to find a used Bluebird hopper mixer or an industrial dough mixer (they are
about the same thing as the Bluebird), and get by with that until you can
afford a Soldner.
The notion of a used Soldner mixer available CHEAP is an empty glimmer of
hope.
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 4 sep 04
Dear David Bogus
Perhaps you some one else might enlighten me.
What is it about the quality or the construction or the design or the
materials of the Soldner Mixer that makes it worth a $US 5,000 price
tag ? (Say $Au 8,000 or ten tonnes of good quality clay)
If you were to require a tonne or so of clay each and every day then I
can see the advantages of setting up a clay production line. But will
your 600 students require that much clay for their environmental
studies ?
If you are considering planning and building environments according to
the teachings of Stan Bitters or Nader Khalili and it is a requirement
for qualification then surely your College should come up with the
cash
But why not get your students to use the time honoured way of mixing
the stuff with their feet ?
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
Rod Wuetherick on sat 4 sep 04
Vince I would like to offer you a challenge,
What is the ingenious design? You make this sound like rocket science!
Steel reinforced concrete? Your not talking to a student here. There is not
much
science to reinforcing concrete with steel - none - zero - nada. Dead on
center? At the
slow speeds that the mixer is running - close enough is good enough. Your
not
running a centrifuge here - let's get serious. Tolerances are not in
nanometers,
or millimeterers, within the centimeter would be good enough and you can do
that with a
stick. Besides that ahem - What is casting Alex for $1000.00?
Okay now that we have that covered pray tell what else is there to talk
about. Unless you want
to bring in your comment of union wages - what the hell does that have to do
with it? Are you
saying we should pay $8000.00 dollars for a mixer because whomever built it
is being paid union
wages? Not sure what your saying here! How many potters are being paid union
wages?
Expensive R & D - Bullshit. What R & D is there to using off the shelf
motors, gear box, electrical,
etc. I challenge you Vince tell me what research? What development? If they
had designed the motors, gearbox, etc. I would say sure some R & D but there
is none here
that I can see.
We are talking about an over priced piece of equipment whose entire drive
train uses off the shelf
components right down to the electrical.
We have a steel reinforced concrete mixing basin - geez if having concrete
reinforced with steel
is worth so much my driveway must surely be worth a million or more dollars.
I stand by what I say the Soldner mixer is overpriced. How does your back
feel when your finished unloading a Soldner mixer? If you say it feels great
I would have to say bullshit for the second time in this letter. Sorry guy
but I know too many people besides myself that have used them and say the
same. Most of them after bending over and cleaning the bemoth out once
regretted not buying a peter pugger or the like for almost 1/2 the cost.
Anyone building a studio should get a pugmill and everything else they need
before they entertain the idea of getting any clay mixer - let alone a
Soldner. By then they will have enough experience to make an informed
decision.
Vince if I wanted to I could indeed make a mixer as good as a Soldner. You
may call that arrogance I call it the pragmatic application of simplistic
design. Building a Soldner like mixer is a little bit of welding, casting,
etc. Maybe the one I made wouldn't be as pretty but it would be just as
effective. Your right that I probably would end up spending some time at it.
But after you have built one the rest are a piece of cake. How many Soldner
mixers have been made? Enough to know how to get it right.
The markup is enormous you are not paying for R & D. Your paying for
concrete.
As I said many times here - there isn't any science to a Soldner Mixer.
Saying there is allot of R & D in this product is a stretch at best.
Why hasn't any other company made a mixer like it? Any patent protection ran
out a long long time ago- so why? Simple- it ain't that great of an idea!
By the way you finished by saying, "and give the whole thing a nice
industrial finish"
Is this what we up here in Canada call paint?
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Vince
Pitelka
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 7:46 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
> I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I
couldn't
> afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so horrendously over
> priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in whatever city you are
in
> to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less money than it
> would cost you to buy one.
Rod -
I would like to issue you a challenge. Go ahead and try it. Try to
fabricat a mixer that is equal to the Soldner. Having done a great deal of
machinery/equipment design, construction, and repair in my time, I can see
that the Soldner mixer is worth every bit of the cost. It is an ingenious
design, and part of what you are paying for is the extensive R&D that went
into perfecting the design. That is always the case with any sort of
ingenious invention.
So, if you can figure out how to cast that steel reinforced tub and get it
dead-on-center on a rotating shaft, and construct all the rest of the frame
and mixing bars, add the "off-the-shelf" gearmotor and electrical
components, pay yourself union wages for all the labor, and give the whole
thing a nice industrial finish, and still come in for less than $4500, you
will be doing very well. I'd like to see you do that.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
dave bogus on sat 4 sep 04
In response to my friend down under + others:
I have spent the last 2 evenings mixing clay with my feet. It is not time
effective or very much fun. My problem is I have just taken over a studio
which has been neglected and i'm trying to make improvements. There are
barrels full of reclaim, it could take till the end of the semester to mix
it all by foot. My goal is to make this studio clean, organized, and with
plenty of options for students. Having a mixer will allow students to have
whichever claybody the wish, and will not turn the studio into wreck while
mixing clay. I don't feel that having a mixer implys we will mix tons
everyday. The Soldner is a tool that every studio I worked in has had. For
my own work I need lots of clay, and I have lots of waste to be remixed. My
process involves working solid then hollowing out. I understand Vince's
point that it is such a good piece of equipment, no one would get rid of
it. I was hoping for that off chance of some school shutting down a studio
or a situation similar that I would be able to snag a soldner. I feel the
same way, "fat chance", but nevertheless I must try. People told me fat
chance getting a teaching job right out of grad school, but here I am.
Sometimes the seemingly impossible is attainable if you put your energy
into making it happen and having "faith" that what you do will come back to
you. So all you skeptics out there chill out and lighten up or light one
up, whatever it takes. I'm just trying to make an effort.
Bogus
Snail Scott on sat 4 sep 04
At 04:14 PM 9/4/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>What is it about the quality or the construction or the design or the
>materials of the Soldner Mixer that makes it worth a $US 5,000 price
>tag ? (Say $Au 8,000 or ten tonnes of good quality clay)
>If you were to require a tonne or so of clay each and every day then I
>can see the advantages of setting up a clay production line.
The Soldner design is quite different from
most mixers. It's a low concrete tub which
rotates on a center axis, and friction
with the tub forces the clay past a
stationary array of round stainless-steel
bars. Pricey, but indestructible.
Actually, the Soldner mixer is a terrible
design if you are doing large-volume
processing of that sort. All the clay has
to be lifted out by hand - no side dump.
And the practical capacity is 150-300 lbs
depending on the model. It isn't a
continuous-feed mixer but a batch mixer.
It has many virtues, however, especially
for school settings. It's virtually
idiot-proof. There are no sharp finger-
eating blades - skinned knuckles are the
major hazard, not dismemberment. Even
beginning students can be trusted to mix
their own clay. If the mix is too wet,
the concrete tub will absorb the excess,
so letting it sit for a day will cure the
problem even if there's no room to add
more dry mix. The absorbency also makes
the clay peel cleanly off the sides when
the consistency is right. It also has no
precision parts - all simple machinery.
It's OK to leave dried clay in it - before
the next use, just add water. Because of
this, it can even serve as a slop bucket.
Just throw stuff into it, let it sit
around as long as you like, then turn
it on and let it run.
-Snail Scott
Rod Wuetherick on sat 4 sep 04
You know I would like to point out for the record, though I'm sure it is
fairly obvious to most on the list that although the soldner mixer is a
great mixer. The best of what is available. There is absolutely nothing
about it that can justify it's price in anyway.
I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I couldn't
afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so horrendously over
priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in whatever city you are in
to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less money than it
would cost you to buy one.
The soldner mixer is a simple massive concrete tub with stationary mixing
paddles. Everything mechanical on the solder mixer is off the shelf, gear
boxes, drive train, motor, bearings, etc. They can't even justify the cost
by saying that there is something special about it that had to be researched
and engineered and part of the cost is to pay for that.
No disrespect but there is nothing spectacular about the soldner mixer other
than the price. Also what many will tell you here - it's a back breaker. You
mix a few hundred pounds of clay a day and come back and tell us what your
back feels like after digging it out all day.
I have an old Estrin mixer - the tub can be tipped down. I run the mixing
bars in that position and a great portion of the clay is pushed out onto my
studio trolley and off I go. 150-200 pounds of clay unloaded in 5 minutes.
Try that with a soldner. I got my Estrin mixer for $150.00 dollars - yes
that's right $150.00. versus $15,000 for a soldner pro model. Get
stuffed....and Get Real....
When Soldner/Muddy Elbow finally realizes that there are no more ceramic
schools with budgets that can afford that much for a mixer - perhaps they
will come to their senses and lower the price.
I would venture that material and parts in a Soldner mixer are easily under
$1000.00. I call that a great profit margin. If you really want a Solner go
take some pictures of one and build one yourself. Get the part numbers of
the motor, etc. You will find them all commercially available. Cast your tub
and hire a welder if you can't afford one. Viola' you have a back breaking
clay mixer.
Rod
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sat 4 sep 04
Hi Rod,
Nice mentions...well said.
I agree completely.
As a quite small Manufacturer of things which I make as a
sole proprietor, I was thinking of the cost of the materials
for the Soldner Mixer as something I could duplicate in
quality and in buying in smallish quantities, for more like
about $500.00 and maybe less. There is not that much there,
and certainly not a lot of tech or troubles to fabricate and
assemble.
Either there is remarkable presumption as oversees the waste
and ineffeciency in their materials acquisition, and or as
well in their fabricating methods, or, there is an obscene
presumption of what is an appropriate profit for a humble
effort.
And as you refer to, the manner of budgets in educational
beurocracies, and their renoun for waste and ineffeciency in
all things, is a different market from those of sincere self
supporting Potters or Clay Artisans who do not have five
grand or more of someone-else's money to allocate naively or
in wan cynicism, to a mixing device as may save them some
otherwise incidental labors...
if it were me, I would just take a cut down 55 Gallon Drum
or two, mix my dry ingerdients with Water, let it evaporate
down to where I like it, and call it macaronii...
Best wishes,
Phil
el ve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Wuetherick"
> You know I would like to point out for the record, though
I'm sure it is
> fairly obvious to most on the list that although the
soldner mixer is a
> great mixer. The best of what is available. There is
absolutely nothing
> about it that can justify it's price in anyway.
>
> I personally will never buy one not because with a little
saving I couldn't
> afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so
horrendously over
> priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in
whatever city you are in
> to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less
money than it
> would cost you to buy one.
>
> The soldner mixer is a simple massive concrete tub with
stationary mixing
> paddles. Everything mechanical on the solder mixer is off
the shelf, gear
> boxes, drive train, motor, bearings, etc. They can't even
justify the cost
> by saying that there is something special about it that
had to be researched
> and engineered and part of the cost is to pay for that.
>
> No disrespect but there is nothing spectacular about the
soldner mixer other
> than the price. Also what many will tell you here - it's a
back breaker. You
> mix a few hundred pounds of clay a day and come back and
tell us what your
> back feels like after digging it out all day.
>
> I have an old Estrin mixer - the tub can be tipped down. I
run the mixing
> bars in that position and a great portion of the clay is
pushed out onto my
> studio trolley and off I go. 150-200 pounds of clay
unloaded in 5 minutes.
> Try that with a soldner. I got my Estrin mixer for $150.00
dollars - yes
> that's right $150.00. versus $15,000 for a soldner pro
model. Get
> stuffed....and Get Real....
>
> When Soldner/Muddy Elbow finally realizes that there are
no more ceramic
> schools with budgets that can afford that much for a
mixer - perhaps they
> will come to their senses and lower the price.
>
> I would venture that material and parts in a Soldner mixer
are easily under
> $1000.00. I call that a great profit margin. If you really
want a Solner go
> take some pictures of one and build one yourself. Get the
part numbers of
> the motor, etc. You will find them all commercially
available. Cast your tub
> and hire a welder if you can't afford one. Viola' you have
a back breaking
> clay mixer.
>
>
> Rod
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
Vince Pitelka on sat 4 sep 04
> I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I
couldn't
> afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so horrendously over
> priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in whatever city you are
in
> to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less money than it
> would cost you to buy one.
Rod -
I would like to issue you a challenge. Go ahead and try it. Try to
fabricat a mixer that is equal to the Soldner. Having done a great deal of
machinery/equipment design, construction, and repair in my time, I can see
that the Soldner mixer is worth every bit of the cost. It is an ingenious
design, and part of what you are paying for is the extensive R&D that went
into perfecting the design. That is always the case with any sort of
ingenious invention.
So, if you can figure out how to cast that steel reinforced tub and get it
dead-on-center on a rotating shaft, and construct all the rest of the frame
and mixing bars, add the "off-the-shelf" gearmotor and electrical
components, pay yourself union wages for all the labor, and give the whole
thing a nice industrial finish, and still come in for less than $4500, you
will be doing very well. I'd like to see you do that.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
dave bogus on sat 4 sep 04
Rod,
The soldner mixer is $4780 not $15,000. This is still steep for a studio
with a tight budget.
lela martens on sun 5 sep 04
Hey Rod,
In your post directed to Vince,did you have to say `up here in Canada`and
ruin the myth that we aren`t rude up here?.....but..at least you aren`t
`bogus`. Lela
Russel Fouts on sun 5 sep 04
David,
If you can't afford the real thing, why don't you build Soldner's prototype?
From the Studio Potter Magazine Site:
"The Anti-Establishment Mixer", by Paul Soldner
http://studiopotter.org/articles/?art=art0018
Good luck!
Russel
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 3000 Pottery Related Links!
Updated frequently
My work can also be seen on:
The World Crafts Council Belgium Site http://wcc-bf.org:
Members English Pages: http://wcc-bf.org/artistes/ukrussel_fouts.htm
EasyCraft: http://www.easycraft.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." --U.S. President (and Nobel Peace Prize winner) Theodore
Roosevelt.
Kim Lindaberry on sun 5 sep 04
>
> What is the ingenious design? You make this sound like rocket science!
>
Its very easy to look at a design after the fact and say, "I could have
invented that!" It may not be rocket science but the fact is that when
someone gets a patent on an invention they have, by the basic
definition of patent law, invented something that must: not have been
obvious to an expert in the field, be new and different from anything
that has been available to the public before, and be useful for
something.
Look at the humble paper clip. There isn't a one of us that couldn't
make a paperclip NOW that we have seen one and understand how useful it
can be. Yet someone else originally came up with the paperclip
(Konaclip) idea in 1899, and a fortune was made. Patents allow the
inventor to have exclusive rights of manufacture of any particular
invention. This is a reward for the inventors ability to see things
(conceive ideas) in a unique way. As such they can charge whatever the
market will bear. If they are foolish and overcharge for their
invention they will not make any money. That's pretty simple. If the
Soldner Clay Mixer has made him money then certainly there are many
people out there that feel it does a job they want done. It is his
right to charge whatever he wants to. It is your right to not buy it,
but it is not your right (or anyone else's) to use the fruits of his
creative mind and steal his design IF the patent is still in effect.
Since designing, patenting and building a clay mixer apparently isn't
rocket science I anxiously await see the original, new and improved
mixer designs some members of the list come up with.
>
> I stand by what I say the Soldner mixer is overpriced.
>
If you think the Soldner Mixer is overpriced then find an alternative
or invent a new one. Personally I think the design is OK, but I've
used more user friendly machines. The bottom line is he may charge what
he wants because he came up with the idea, he did the work, and he got
the law to protect his intellectual property.
cheers,
Kim
Kathi LeSueur on sun 5 sep 04
>
>
>Let's change a few words in this post and see if Rod thinks it still is reasonable.
>
rod@REDIRONSTUDIOS.CA wrote:
>You know I would like to point out for the record, though I'm sure it is fairly obvious to most on the list that although the soldner mixer (Tom Coleman pot, /van Gogh painting) is a great mixer (beautiful pot, painting). The best of what is available. There is absolutely nothing about it that can justify it's price in anyway.
>
>I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I couldn't
>afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer (tom Coleman pot, Van Gogh painting) is so horrendously over priced that you could actually hire a fabricator (potter, painter) in whatever city you are in to fabricate (throw, paint) a like (similar) machine (pot, painting) from scratch for probably less money than it would cost you to buy one.
>
>
>
There's always someone out there willing to copy your design and sell it
at a cheaper price. If you think that the work and time Soldner put
into making this design is worth nothing, make sure you price your pots
with the same attitude. And, if you happen to come up with a really good
concept, don't get upset when you find lots of people copying it rather
than paying you more than the cost of your clay and glaze materials.
Kathi
Kathi LeSueur on sun 5 sep 04
vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET wrote:
>>Rod -
>>I would like to issue you a challenge. Go ahead and try it. Try to
>>fabricat a mixer that is equal to the Soldner. Having done a great deal of
>>machinery/equipment design, construction, and repair in my time, I can see
>>that the Soldner mixer is worth every bit of the cost. It is an ingenious
>>design, and part of what you are paying for is the extensive R&D that went
>>into perfecting the design. That is always the case with any sort of
>>ingenious invention.
>>
>>
>>
To add to this consider the outrageous mark up on a mug using Rod's
method for reasonable pricing.
1 pound clay $.30
Glaze . 70 (and this is a very high estimate).
Time spent in fabrication and glazing. 10 minutes at most.
Retail price of mug: $14.
Now that is really an outragous mark up.
Kathi
dave bogus on sun 5 sep 04
Dear Russell,
I have a lot of obligations to the school and to myself as a working
artist. I don't get paid enough to sit down in the studio on my time, pick
up equipment on my gas money and figure out how to design and manufacture a
clay mixer. Did I mention I live in the middle of Vermont? It would be some
process to get all the materials and equipment I would need. Plus all the
headache of trying to make some sort of creation of mine work. I was never
really that interested in functionality anyhow. In grad school I replaced
the inner bars of a Soldner that was enough fun for me let alone staring
from scratch. Plus I'm working under deadlines. I have work I need to
finish plus three classes to teach, meetings to attend, and lots of
organizing to do in my new place. These are the reasons I=92m not going to
build a mixer, and thank you everyone for your help but I have a fish on
the line and I'm trying to real it in. Hopefully we will have our mixer in
a couple weeks, probably much to Vince's surprise, optimism will pay off
always. To my friend Lela in Canada, I'm a masswhole, being rude is how we
show love where I'm from. Good luck on your debates and rebuttals, hope
that the mixer issue is keeping you all very busy, and again please only
serious replies ex. YOU HAVE A MIXER YOU WANT TO SELL. Peace
Bogus
John Jensen on sun 5 sep 04
Kathi;
Not so outrageous, I don't think. Ten minutes is one sixth of an
hour...about sixteen dollars at 100 dollars an hour, eight dollars at
$50/hour, four dollars at $25/hour. Let's just say $25 dollars an hour
(which is about minimum wage to survive as a craftsperson) or $4 dollars
for the mug plus the one dollar materials, plus don't forget all the
overhead, gas, electricity, insurance, rent or mortgage, shoes, socks,
aprons and so forth, just make it $2 and you have a $7 mug which is a
fairly low wholesale price for a $14 dollar mug.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
John Jensen@mudbugpottery.com
http://www.toadhouse.com www://www.mudbugpottery.com
To add to this consider the outrageous mark up on a mug using Rod's
method for reasonable pricing.
1 pound clay $.30
Glaze . 70 (and this is a very high estimate).
Time spent in fabrication and glazing. 10 minutes at most.
Retail price of mug: $14.
Now that is really an outragous mark up.
Kathi
Craig Clark on sun 5 sep 04
Rod, I've used a Sodlner mixer since 1985. My opinion is that it is
a workhouse of a machine that functions well over the long haul. I never
have had back problems after unloading one, not even in recent years
when I tend to mix up between 1500 and 2000lbs at a time. I then take
the mud and run it through an old Venco de-airing put-mill that is also
almost twenty years old and keeps on chugging along dispite prolonged
abuse and some neglect in an instituaitonal setting.
As to wether or not something is over priced whose to say. If you
are a proponent of the free market then the Soldner mixer is indeed
priced well as the sales will attest. If you think it or any other piece
of shop equipment is overpriced and you have the time, skill and shop
facilities available to go about the task of copying and assembling the
equipment then by all means do so. Or if you are able to come up with
something that works equally well or not as well for that matter you are
also free to do so.
I have a nice set of plans that I got from Vince a few years back
for a de-airing pug-mill which I still plan on building becaause I don't
have the bread to cough up for a new Venco. I'm not fooling myself
though about the "cost savings." When I figure in my time I most likely
won't really be saving all that much. THis is often the case when
someone thinks they are saving money by manufacturing something,
especialcially if that thing has several parts.
The reference that you made to the state of someones back after
using a Soldner Mixer is idiotic. Notice that I'm not calling you an
idiot here but am merely referencing your remark. You have no way of
knowing how anyone else experiences this particular task other than by
what they tell you or what you are able to observe. This will be
anecdotal at best.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Vince
>Pitelka
>Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 7:46 PM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
>
>
>
>
>>I personally will never buy one not because with a little saving I
>>
>>
>couldn't
>
>
>>afford one. It is simply this. The soldner mixer is so horrendously over
>>priced that you could actually hire a fabricator in whatever city you are
>>
>>
>in
>
>
>>to fabricate a like machine from scratch for probably less money than it
>>would cost you to buy one.
>>
>>
>
>Rod -
>I would like to issue you a challenge. Go ahead and try it. Try to
>fabricat a mixer that is equal to the Soldner. Having done a great deal of
>machinery/equipment design, construction, and repair in my time, I can see
>that the Soldner mixer is worth every bit of the cost. It is an ingenious
>design, and part of what you are paying for is the extensive R&D that went
>into perfecting the design. That is always the case with any sort of
>ingenious invention.
>
>So, if you can figure out how to cast that steel reinforced tub and get it
>dead-on-center on a rotating shaft, and construct all the rest of the frame
>and mixing bars, add the "off-the-shelf" gearmotor and electrical
>components, pay yourself union wages for all the labor, and give the whole
>thing a nice industrial finish, and still come in for less than $4500, you
>will be doing very well. I'd like to see you do that.
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
>Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
>vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
>http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
Earl Brunner on sun 5 sep 04
Humm, another fine example of someone coming to the list, to GET. "I need a
mixer, I don't want to participate, just sell me a mixer. I don't have time
to spend TALKING, I'm a BUSY person. I have more important things to do
than participate in Clayart, I just want to USE Clayart."
Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of dave bogus
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 9:36 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer
Dear Russell,
I have a lot of obligations to the school and to myself as a working
artist. I don't get paid enough to sit down in the studio on my time, pick
up equipment on my gas money and figure out how to design and manufacture a
clay mixer. Did I mention I live in the middle of Vermont? It would be some
process to get all the materials and equipment I would need. Plus all the
headache of trying to make some sort of creation of mine work. I was never
really that interested in functionality anyhow. In grad school I replaced
the inner bars of a Soldner that was enough fun for me let alone staring
from scratch. Plus I'm working under deadlines. I have work I need to
finish plus three classes to teach, meetings to attend, and lots of
organizing to do in my new place. These are the reasons I'm not going to
build a mixer, and thank you everyone for your help but I have a fish on
the line and I'm trying to real it in. Hopefully we will have our mixer in
a couple weeks, probably much to Vince's surprise, optimism will pay off
always. To my friend Lela in Canada, I'm a masswhole, being rude is how we
show love where I'm from. Good luck on your debates and rebuttals, hope
that the mixer issue is keeping you all very busy, and again please only
serious replies ex. YOU HAVE A MIXER YOU WANT TO SELL. Peace
Bogus
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 6 sep 04
I would like to thank those of you who have set out to enlighten me
about the technology and value of this mixer. I have never seen one,
just the Soldner Ads.
Making concrete cylinders is not rocket science. Thousands must be
made every day around the world in a variety of diameters and lengths.
They are Spun. Standard product for Sewer Trunk Lines.
When rotating at about 60 RPM the drum would not need to have dynamic
balance.
But the orientation of the blades will be crucial to the mixing
process for they have to turn, fold, spread and recombine the
ingredients.
Best regards to all who have made a contribution.
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
Snail Scott on mon 6 sep 04
At 03:19 PM 9/6/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>When rotating at about 60 RPM the drum would not need to have dynamic
>balance.
>But the orientation of the blades will be crucial to the mixing
>process..
They don't even run that fast...maybe 25-30
rpm, tops. I'm inclined to agree that perfect
balance is not essential.
Interestingly, the Soldner mixing bars are
not blades, but perfectly round bar stock.
The 'orientation' is thus less of an issue
than simple location. There is one which
extends across the bottom of the tub, radially,
about an inch up, and another one which is
vertical, close to the sides. Another is set
on a diagonal. This might be presumed to be
terribly inefficient compared with conventional
blades, but it demonstrably works very well.
There are areas which mix first and areas
which are last to really integrate into the
mix, but it all gets there in the end. The
rods also eliminates sharp edges, so although
cleaning the thing out is a bit awkward, it's
not likely to result in accidental bloodshed.
They are indeed pricey, so I don't own one.
Nor any other mixer or pugmill. I mix my clay
(when I mix,) in 5 gallon buckets, which suits
my needs adequately. (By the way, Mel, I loved
the 'plaster bucket' tip. Now that I'm out of
the desert and into the Midwest, a little extra
drying capacity could come in handy.)
Clay-mixing needs vary greatly from one person
(or institution) to another, and in certain
situations expensive devices may well be worth
every penny. It is a shame, though, to see
students who've had all the 'mod. cons' in
school feel that they can't ever set up on their
own because they can't afford a deairing pugmill
and a mixer and a computer-controlled kiln, etc,
like they used in school. It's a late revelation
for far too many of them, how little you can
lay out for equipment and still produce fine
work.
-Snail Scott
Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 7 sep 04
Dear Russel,
What a simple idea ! !
> "The Anti-Establishment Mixer", by Paul Soldner
> http://studiopotter.org/articles/?art=art0018
External drive and really only one moving part. Very low tech.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
S. Australia.
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 8 sep 04
Dear Snail Scott,
Thank you for your description of this mixer.
I have an Ice Cream Machine that has the same principle. A freezing
container instead of the Concrete tub and a fixture that fits within
that has bars across the base and the top with two upright arms to
scrape stuff from the inner wall of the tub as it freezes. Makes a
superb ice cream mix in twenty mins.
I can appreciate the value of the principle in mixing a good clay
body.
Best regards,
Ivor
.
| |
|
